Lucas

[Darkon]

I think the problem here is more with the way people us stats than the stats themselves. For example here people continuously say Lucas 'gives the ball away' which the raw data suggests is not the case at all comparatively with any other player in the division.

This should be used as evidence that needs you to alter you opinion. Not necessarily that you suddenly think Lucas is a world beater but possibly you should change your complaint to something along the lines of: Lucas gives the ball away too much in dangerous areas.

It is rare that any single piece of evidence is enough to make a good evaluation of anything. Statistics are no different and as you say context is important. However the fact that statistics only give some parts of a story doesn't mean that they can be dismissed entirely which some people seem to want to do.



Personally I think the aim was that we should have had more ways to bring the ball forward from deep - i.e. we had both the same attacking quartet as last year + more frequent attacking fullbacks comfortable with moving forward. In that context the lack of long passing and vision of Mascherano and Lucas could be made up for by short quick passing to find an outlet and start attacks. Unfortunately I think we have left too many gaps on the counter, played too deep and the attacking players have been playing badly. The former I think is partly a consequence of the attacking fullbacks thing. The others seem to be a feedback loop which includes the limitations of the Mascherano/Lucas central midfield axis.



I'm not sure that they have to be seen as anchormen but I take your point. We need to play more to their strengths and giving width to the attack would give them more space and options which I think is one key to getting the balance in the team right.

I agree with what you say on statistics, and was sorta my point, that numbers can never stand alone - It's pretty much the 101 in the statistics handbook. But it does tell us that his short passing game is as good as any in the league. However it also tells me that he makes a lot of simple passes, and that fabregas is a rare exception on offensive players having a high pass percentage.

The crunch of it is that the balance of the midfield is not good when lucas and mascher are playing together. The only games they have worked well together have been against the scum and chelski where they have midfielder that can battle them. Against "lesser" opponents, they simply come up short and becomes a weight on us, and if we had good wingers, that could perhaps they some of the pressure away and create a bit more balance that way around. But when we play with Kuyt on the right, we have another player making it simple, and who doesn't give us that extra creative threat to take on the opponent. Riera offers it on the left when available, but it still leaves us creatively unbalanced.

I guess that's pretty much why Rafa took the step and brought in Maxi so that we have a more creative threat against the opponents.

[Armchairkopite]

It's silly to say 'all of Lucas passes are sideways or backwards', but i dont think it's wrong to say that he doesnt exactly litter the field with killer balls or incisive defence-splitting passes. In his time at the club, he's probably played about 10 of those.

There's the other argument as well though, that you need the odd player who just plays it simple and keeps things ticking over. Hamann rarely played a Gerrard-esque type of defence splitting pass either and there was nowt wrong with his contribution.

That said, i think one 'keep it simple' type of defensive midfielder is enough for us, especially at home.

I'd be lying if i said i didnt wish Lucas had more to his passing.

Lucas does have more to his passing its just that he plays the simple pass too often, that could also be down to the fact that we have been so poor at the back and plus the fans have already made him the whipping boy. Easier to play a simple pass then go for the more difficult one one which may concede possesion and get the fans on his back.

Maybe the fans have made lucas play within himself, just a thought.

For what is worth when he does play a difficult forweard pass it always seems to find his man, hes got it in his game.

[Craig_H]

Lucas does have more to his passing its just that he plays the simple pass too often, that could also be down to the fact that we have been so poor at the back and plus the fans have already made him the whipping boy. Easier to play a simple pass then go for the more difficult one one which may concede possesion and get the fans on his back.

Maybe the fans have made lucas play within himself, just a thought.

He was like that from the start.

And if that was the case, how about having a strong character and rising above it to prove people wrong? Crouch went through a tough time, but came through it after half a season.

For what is worth when he does play a difficult forweard pass it always seems to find his man, hes got it in his game.

That's plainly not true. But even if it was, having it in his game alone isnt worth much, if he only produces it once in a blue moon.

[barnes10]

if its fair to say lucas doesnt spot the killer pass, then its equally fair to say there arent that many in this current side to spot.

if he had a full season with riera, gerrard, torres and kuyt/benayoun infront of him then there'd be far more options in front of him and far more space and time for him on the ball (opposition being occupied by the front 4)

lucas is developing very well and if only he had more vocal support. hope he continues his progression and continues it with us. he's 23 ffs

great little player.

[Craig_H]

Great? You really think so?

If he's great, what was Alonso?

Would you be calling him great if he played for Wigan?

Strikes me as being what a £6m player tends to be - decent & solid but nothing brilliant. Not yet anyway.

[Mattshark]

Great? You really think so?

If he's great, what was Alonso?

Would you be calling him great if he played for Wigan?

Strikes me as being what a £6m player tends to be - decent & solid but nothing brilliant. Not yet anyway.

Alonso is also very different so the attempted comparison is meaningless.

I think personally Lucas is an excellent player, he keeps possession well, even when he is given the ball in poor circumstance, he is very difficult to tackle and on the rare occasions that he carries the ball, he does it very well.
I would have to agree with the sentiments about him playing within himself, when he does get forward he provides very good support and with confidence he will get much better.

Considering just a year a go, pricks who claim to be Liverpool fans booed him on to the pitch as a sub, his improvement, work rate and ability have in my eyes grown fantastically.

And Craig, don't talk ****, his stats for his role are comparative to the £18m captain of Argentina.

[RedReet]

If he's great, what was Alonso?

Just a two season wonder according to some.

Alonso is also very different so the attempted comparison is meaningless.

I think personally Lucas is an excellent player, he keeps possession well, even when he is given the ball in poor circumstance, he is very difficult to tackle and on the rare occasions that he carries the ball, he does it very well.
I would have to agree with the sentiments about him playing within himself, when he does get forward he provides very good support and with confidence he will get much better.

Considering just a year a go, pricks who claim to be Liverpool fans booed him on to the pitch as a sub, his improvement, work rate and ability have in my eyes grown fantastically.

And Craig, don't talk ****, his stats for his role are comparative to the £18m captain of Argentina.

He really should do it more often, but like most of his game, seems to be improving steadily eachweek.

[Craig_H]

Alonso is also very different so the attempted comparison is meaningless.

I think personally Lucas is an excellent player, he keeps possession well, even when he is given the ball in poor circumstance, he is very difficult to tackle and on the rare occasions that he carries the ball, he does it very well.
I would have to agree with the sentiments about him playing within himself, when he does get forward he provides very good support and with confidence he will get much better.

Considering just a year a go, pricks who claim to be Liverpool fans booed him on to the pitch as a sub, his improvement, work rate and ability have in my eyes grown fantastically.

And Craig, don't talk ****, his stats for his role are comparative to the £18m captain of Argentina.

I'm not talking **** mate. That would be implying that Lucas is a comparative player to Mascherano. Booing any Red is pathetic, and those idiots should be ashamed. He's certainly improved and done pretty well, no argument there. He's not at Mascherano's level though, not by a long way.

Let's hope Barca are sniffing around Lucas, with a potential £30m bid this summer.

[Mattshark]

I'm not talking **** mate. That would be implying that Lucas is a comparative player to Mascherano. Booing any Red is pathetic, and those idiots should be ashamed. He's certainly improved and done pretty well, no argument there. He's not at Mascherano's level though, not by a long way.

Let's hope Barca are sniffing around Lucas, with a potential £30m bid this summer.

On this seasons form, I think he is. I also feel he can do something which Mascherano can't do and that is the ability to greatly expand his game to bring in more attacking play.

He doesn't just play like a £6m player, his playing level is a lot higher than that.

[Scratch]

He's not at Mascherano's level though, not by a long way.

Exactly what does he have to improve upon to be at Mascher's level then? Fly into tackles? Back chat incessantly to referees? Mascher is a good player, but nothing he does makes him stand out from Lucas apart from he likes to take man and ball in a tackle (always an eye-catching crowd pleaser), whilst Lucas prefers to try and nick it away and stay on his feet (more likely to concede niggling fouls, fairly given or not). Their distribution of the ball is similar, in that both like to keep it simple in the majority. In fact, Lucas has a more all round game, with a willingness to get forwards into the box that Mascher rarely shows....

So tell me Craig, what exactly does Mascher offer so much more than Lucas? The stats show that Lucas tackles a lot more than Mascher (more tackles completed at a lower success rate equates to a lot more tackles made) so he's not failing in that role....similar passing game, in which Lucas is slightly ahead in terms of finding a red shirt....i'm failing to see why Mascher is so much better than Lucas??

Don't get me wrong, i think Mascher does his role well, but flying into tackles does not make him a stand out, it just gets the crowd more involved and people notice and commenton the commitment.

[Craig_H]

Never mentioned anything about flying into tackles.

If you dont think that Mascherano is arguably the best defensive midfielder in the world (along with Essien), then that's upto you.

I'd point to the notion that Barcelona have been strongly linked to Mascherano and he'd be likely to command a fee in the region of £30m if he were to be sold. Do you think Lucas would command a similar fee, or attract the likes of Barcelona? I dont think he would, personally.

But each to their own. If you think that, all things considered, Lucas is generally as good as Mascherano, that's your choice.

I think there's a chasm of difference in their relative levels of quality.

[DeanoUK]

Couldn't agree more

[Scratch]

Never mentioned anything about flying into tackles.

If you dont think that Mascherano is arguably the best defensive midfielder in the world (along with Essien), then that's upto you.

I'd point to the notion that Barcelona have been strongly linked to Mascherano and he'd be likely to command a fee in the region of £30m if he were to be sold. Do you think Lucas would command a similar fee, or attract the likes of Barcelona? I dont think he would, personally.

But each to their own. If you think that, all things considered, Lucas is generally as good as Mascherano, that's your choice.

I think there's a chasm of difference in their relative levels of quality.

And all i've asked is for you to explain what you think that Mascherano brings over Lucas, not the fact that Barca are allegedly willing to pay £30 million for him...allegedly, altho that bid never materialised in any way, shape or form??

What do you think he offers that Lucas doesn't? An aerial threat? The ability to beat 3 players and unleash a thunderbolt? Cos it ain't tackling or distribution from the back, both do that job. So what is it that makes Mascher world class in your eyes? Or you, DeanoUK, why are you so keen to agree...what makes Mascher a so much better player...the two players have very similar stats, both have non-stop engines and hassle and harry all over the pitch, both can be found in the defensive area making key interceptions, plus Lucas is now making more forrays into the opposition area...so why is Mascher so much better?

[Guest]

Lucas has a better passing game than Mascherano. He isn't at Mascher's levels as a defensive midfielder though.

[Neil Young]

Lucas has a better passing game than Mascherano. He isn't at Mascher's levels as a defensive midfielder though.

Thanks.