The New Manager Thread

[-V-]

We never had a good enough team to challenge for 1st place and Rafa made us play 'above our level' consistently which is no mean feat. Chelsea and United were always superior.

It's nothing to do with unwavering love for Benitez. I'd love it for him to be sacked and for another manager to come in and proving me right though, I'd love it.

Perhaps I misunderstood but are you saying you would love it for the next manager to come in and fail just so you can tell everyone that you were right that its not Rafa's fault? You actually want the next guy to fail? You would love that?

[Lecter]

I'm not talking about players in positions, i'm talking about his basic footballing principles, involving tempo, movement and attacking mindset.

Aside from a 2-3 month period last season, where we had no choice but to throw caution to the wind, we've pretty much always played the same way under Rafa - cautious, methodical, pedestrian, slow-paced and predictable.

Tell me with some substance, that this is an incorrect suggestion.

As for 5 years under Benitez, in terms of our development as a force in the Premier League, it's been 80% failure.

Havent we got 2 or 3 of our highest Premier League points totals under Benitez?

As for our system and formation one could again argue that Benitez has been forced to buy players lacking in one quality or another again due to financial constrictions

The system itself isnt cautious (unless you get sucked in by Sky analysis) the pace is slow and pedestrian at times buts thats a function of the players we have had to buy not any plan

Look at the quick players Rafa has bought

Torres, Babel & Johnson

Thats £50 million plus worth of players right there, and Babel doesnt have the technical ability to tie his shoelaces nevermind threaten the opposition consistantly

Pace is a premium commodity in the football industry and finding a player who has talent and pace will mean a large outlay financially

Something we just havent been able to consistantly do during Rafa's reign in fact one could argue the only year he had an abundance of funds to purchase players (the 1 in 6) he bought hugely successfully - Torres & Mascherano being his two flagship purchases that season

[Craig_H]

Alonso had a contract yes but money is everything to our club at this moment

Everything has to maximised, there is a huge blackhole in our budgets and clearly money that should be used for transfers is being diverted elsewhere

I'd also suggest that the moment a player hands in a transfer request I'd unload him as quickly as possible. His heart wont be in the club

Therefore you cannot afford to lose further money on him. As for the Barry debacle well thats a fair point but anyone who thinks Alonso wouldnt have gone if Barry hadnt been courted needs to wake up and smell the coffee, or alternatively look at Arbeloa and how quickly he jumped ship

Are you really dismissing the notion that as two completely different people, there might've been a difference in how Alonso and Arbeloa deal with situations?

As for reverting to 4-4-2 with Gerrard as CM I present to you the evidence from the first 50 minutes of last night where Gerrard was completely and utterly out of his depth. He didnt tackle he let players wander past him and he didnt track back. Before you start to claim this as a one off (similar to your 1 in 6 analogy) I suggest you look at Gerrard in the past hes always had the problem of not being disciplined enough in central midfield. He switches off which is why hes far better in his positon playing off the striker

Less tactical responsibility and free to hurt the opposition accordingly

So again to quote you a fantastic piece of methodology

But we didnt play a genuine 442 in the first half

We played 4231, with Gerrard slotting into the holding midfield role alongside Lucas. He broke forward on occasion, as his style of play will automatically lead to, but we didnt play a traditional 442. Kuyt was playing off Torres, and running about as he often does, he certainly wasnt holding a 'striker' position.

Against sides like Wigan, you can play 442 with ONE (excellent) holding midfielder and allow Gerrard the forward bursts which his difficulty in retaining positional discipline would often lead to. We didnt do this though.

[Lecter]

Are you really dismissing the notion that as two completely different people, there might've been a difference in how Alonso and Arbeloa deal with situations?



But we didnt play a genuine 442 in the first half

We played 4231, with Gerrard slotting into the holding midfield role alongside Lucas. He broke forward on occasion, as his style of play will automatically lead to, but we didnt play a traditional 442. Kuyt was playing off Torres, and running about as he often does, he certainly wasnt holding a 'striker' position.

Against sides like Wigan, you can play 442 with ONE (excellent) holding midfielder and allow Gerrard the forward bursts which his difficulty in retaining positional discipline would often lead to. We didnt do this though.

I think it was near as damn it 4-4-2 first half

Kuyt does roam but in terms of where he was playing it was near as damn it 4-4-2

I'd have no problems in playing 4-4-2 provided it did not mean Gerrard playing central midfield

I do not think he is a central midfielder any longer, I think he struggles with the responsibility of that role

Lets face it he struggled against that McCarthy lad last night and it was only when he was moved forward that he affected the game more

[Lecter]

Are you really dismissing the notion that as two completely different people, there might've been a difference in how Alonso and Arbeloa deal with situations?



But we didnt play a genuine 442 in the first half

We played 4231, with Gerrard slotting into the holding midfield role alongside Lucas. He broke forward on occasion, as his style of play will automatically lead to, but we didnt play a traditional 442. Kuyt was playing off Torres, and running about as he often does, he certainly wasnt holding a 'striker' position.

Against sides like Wigan, you can play 442 with ONE (excellent) holding midfielder and allow Gerrard the forward bursts which his difficulty in retaining positional discipline would often lead to. We didnt do this though.

Are you really dismissing the notion that two completely different people, might have similar opinions as to how they deal with situations?

[Craig_H]

Havent we got 2 or 3 of our highest Premier League points totals under Benitez?

As for our system and formation one could again argue that Benitez has been forced to buy players lacking in one quality or another again due to financial constrictions

The system itself isnt cautious (unless you get sucked in by Sky analysis) the pace is slow and pedestrian at times buts thats a function of the players we have had to buy not any plan

Look at the quick players Rafa has bought

Torres, Babel & Johnson

Thats £50 million plus worth of players right there, and Babel doesnt have the technical ability to tie his shoelaces nevermind threaten the opposition consistantly

Pace is a premium commodity in the football industry and finding a player who has talent and pace will mean a large outlay financially

Something we just havent been able to consistantly do during Rafa's reign in fact one could argue the only year he had an abundance of funds to purchase players (the 1 in 6) he bought hugely successfully - Torres & Mascherano being his two flagship purchases that season

I might be wrong, and you can check it, but i think i deliberately didnt use the word 'system'. The system itself isnt the problem. It's about mindset and mentality, players who rigidly hold a position and are so reluctant to venture out of the 'box', players whose mentality is to pass the ball sideways and backwards instead of forwards, when the forward pass might just SLIGHTLY be a tiny bit more risky.

You keep stating how Rafa 'had' to buy inferior or poor players, and i dont buy this a great deal.

How much did City pay for Adam Johnson? A very talented player who, granted, hasnt proven to be top class yet, but looks extremely effective, beats a man, causes defences problems and plays at a high tempo. By coincidence? (or not, as the case may be), these attributes are worryingly lacking in our squad. Apparently, you can find players like this for £7m.

How much was the downpayment for Aquilani again?

[Lecter]

Where did i actually say that?

What is it that makes the fact that i'm talking about the league, so difficult to spot?

No dont see any mention of the league in here


It seems obvious to me that Gerrard's had enough of the same tried and failed methods of the last 5 years, and even more so of the completely refusal of the manager to adapt.

[Lecter]

I might be wrong, and you can check it, but i think i deliberately didnt use the word 'system'. The system itself isnt the problem. It's about mindset and mentality, players who rigidly hold a position and are so reluctant to venture out of the 'box', players whose mentality is to pass the ball sideways and backwards instead of forwards, when the forward pass might just SLIGHTLY be a tiny bit more risky.

You keep stating how Rafa 'had' to buy inferior or poor players, and i dont buy this a great deal.

How much did City pay for Adam Johnson? A very talented player who, granted, hasnt proven to be top class yet, but looks extremely effective, beats a man, causes defences problems and plays at a high tempo. By coincidence? (or not, as the case may be), these attributes are worryingly lacking in our squad. Apparently, you can find players like this for £7m.

How much was the downpayment for Aquilani again?

£5 million downpayment for Aquilani

Johnson was sold in January Just remind me how much we spent in January?

[Craig_H]

Are you really dismissing the notion that two completely different people, might have similar opinions as to how they deal with situations?

Of course not. You seemed to be implying, without a shadow of a doubt, that because Arbeloa wanted to go to Madrid (without the idea of his boss 'upsetting' him), that Alonso would've too. It could've happened, but the fact that Alonso himself has come out and specified how much Benitez's public courtship of Barry impacted on his desire to be at the club, is a strong indicator to me.

Regarding Arbeloa, it's entirely possible that the lure and money of Madrid were entirely responsible for him wanting to leave. The on-field spat with Carragher last season may have also impacted on him. Or it may not. We can only speculate on that one, unless Arbeloa comes out publicly and tells us what helped trigger his desire to leave, as Alonso did.

[Craig_H]

No dont see any mention of the league in here


It seems obvious to me that Gerrard's had enough of the same tried and failed methods of the last 5 years, and even more so of the completely refusal of the manager to adapt.

Right-oh then, here we go...

I am primarily talking about league performance, with regards to my opinion as to whether or not Benitez's reign has been a successful one.

£5 million downpayment for Aquilani

Johnson was sold in January Just remind me how much we spent in January?

None.

£5m on Aquilani and £2m on Kyrgiakos in the summer. I'm no Carol Vorderman, but...

[red g]

Rafa is a fantastic manager, but he has shown that he doesnt have the correct mentalily to get us out of the mire we are in.

Instead of batting down the hatches he should have just gone for broke. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we may have lost even more than we have allready. But its plain to see this defensive mentality has been bloody awful!!

[Craig_H]

Rafa is a fantastic manager, but he has shown that he doesnt have the correct mentalily to get us out of the mire we are in.

Instead of batting down the hatches he should have just gone for broke. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we may have lost even more than we have allready. But its plain to see this defensive mentality has been bloody awful!!

[Guest]

Good shout on just dismissing someone's viewpoint as 'tripe'. I think 90% of what you post is tripe, but there we go. Whatchya gonna do?

He did make us play above our level for one season, in the league.

That proved we were capable of a title challenge, yet we're now a million miles away.

How close to our level, do you think he's got us playing now? And if someone cant get a team playing to its capabilities, what's the basis for continuing to keep him and watching the team and club get worse?


How about actually pointing out why it's wrong, and showing me what is actually true?

To quote Mattshark, your opinion is not fact.

My opinions are no facts but neither are yours.

Based on his whole tenure and for what he's done to this club, Rafa deserves a little bit more respect and he should be given at least another year to sort out this mess. We won't be winning the league any time soon without an influx of quality players, with or without Benitez and that comes down to it IMO.

To postulate that another manager is going to 'sort us out' is far fetched and extremely naive. That may work in the short term, but the same cancer will still be evident as the personnel which plays the football wouldn't be changing much.

One game which always comes to my mind was the 4-1 win at Old Trafford last season, where we had a team comprising of Mascherano and Lucas in central midfield - and no Alonso, which proves to me that both players can function properly together, which was refuted time and again by the usual suspects this season.

[Guest]

Perhaps I misunderstood but are you saying you would love it for the next manager to come in and fail just so you can tell everyone that you were right that its not Rafa's fault? You actually want the next guy to fail? You would love that?

So as to prove that Rafa wasn't at fault, nothing to do with 'unwavering love' towards him. I don't sleep with Rafa and I don't have any posters of him in my room.

[red g]

My opinions are no facts but neither are yours.

Based on his whole tenure and for what he's done to this club, Rafa deserves a little bit more respect and he should be given at least another year to sort out this mess. We won't be winning the league any time soon without an influx of quality players, with or without Benitez and that comes down to it IMO.

To postulate that another manager is going to 'sort us out' is far fetched and extremely naive. That may work in the short term, but the same cancer will still be evident as the personnel which plays the football wouldn't be changing much.

One game which always comes to my mind was the 4-1 win at Old Trafford last season, where we had a team comprising of Mascherano and Lucas in central midfield - and no Alonso, which proves to me that both players can function properly together, which was refuted time and again by the usual suspects this season.

For whatever reason they are playing liek that for one reason and one reason only. Rafa Benitez. He choose the team, the tactics and gave the team talk.

The team on paper has looked goood for a few weeks i think it is far fetched and niave to think the new man wouldnt get more out of this team.