The New Manager Thread

[dww]

I tend to agree about other managers and miracles. However, given that financial conditions are unlikely to get better, in fact may possibly get worse, does that alter your answer?

See I'm really torn, I guess you could say I'm pretty ambivalent whether he stays or goes. Do you think Rafa has got the best out of what's been at his disposal this year? Personally I don't. Mitigating circumstances absolutely, but our form as well as our results has been consistently poor. Then I start to wonder why that is. Rafa's had worse squads in his time at Anfield, what's different now? Because it does feel like something is, don't you think?

In answer to what is difference I would suggest it is the character of the players in teh squad. In the past we have had players whose take on the game is much more naturally in tune with Rafa's - Alonso, Hyypia, Hamann and in a way I'd also say Crouch actually in an odd way. Those players were always happy to play a role and willing to do things for the team and keep doing the same things they knew would come good in the bad times. This season the squad has been dominated by players who are more expressive, emotional and less naturally rigorously tactical in outlook.

Rafa should take some of the blame for the fact he was doing the recruiting but the constraints he is in are worth considering. As is the relative youth of key players in the squad like Agger and Mascherano who might yet develop into those sorts of people/players.

The problem seems to me that we don't have the belief anymore, a real sense of purpose and direction. Body language looks wrong, the atmosphere seems wrong, the whole thing just feels...... off. The question for me is whether that can change, and if it doesn't, how long its allowed to go on for. And how long we avoid the conclusion that another manager, almost any other decent manager, may not perform miracles, but might bring positive change to the team which the incumbent is unable to.

I still think this is one of those things where people tend to look at some signs and not others. The only game where I really think people gave unforgivable performances that I have seen is Wigan. Players seemed to have no confidence or the collective and seemed to be involved in some advanced version of musical statues.

I'm not sure that Rafa is the ideal manager for a squad in which Gerrard is the dominant personality but on the other hand has got excellent performances out of him and perhaps it is more a case that we need other influences to balance the squad.

I'm not sure that most top managers wouldn't have problems putting together a more united squad given the constraints we have had and the injuries during a time of rebuilding.

[MrMichael]

In the short term a change of manager would certainly be beneficial, just for the sake of changing the entire dynamics but I doubt it will solve our problems long term, I hinted at that in a previous post. The air of resignation and negativity, especially from a couple of our more important players is very worrying but mate, it's up to them to change things, it's not just down to the manager. The belief that everything is down to a manager those days is past its sell by date. Players are paid far more than any manager, so that even changes the whole equation IMO.

Morally, I totally agree. I said in many match threads earlier this season that there's been nothing much wrong with what the manager did, its how the players have executed things that has been mostly at fault.

However, that viewpoint is not "past its sell by date" in the real world. In football every day its managers who are sacked when teams fail to perform. Sure, players get bought and sold, but the buck always stops with the manager. Perhaps it shouldn't be quite so much about that. Definitely it shouldn't. But it is.

Besides..... I know I've seen you post that we should sell Gerrard instead, hold him responsible for what 10 others do on the pitch as well as himself, in his only bad season ever for us. Despite his decade plus of amazing service, and his rightful place as one of our best ever. So why doesn't that apply to Rafa too?

[red g]

Disagree, when Torres was out Kuyt got all our crucial goals noting the 2 v spurs and the 1 v Everton especially.

as i said in another post, great January....then poor since

[dww]

Morally, I totally agree. I said in many match threads earlier this season that there's been nothing much wrong with what the manager did, its how the players have executed things that has been mostly at fault.

However, that viewpoint is not "past its sell by date" in the real world. In football every day its managers who are sacked when teams fail to perform. Sure, players get bought and sold, but the buck always stops with the manager. Perhaps it shouldn't be quite so much about that. Definitely it shouldn't. But it is.

Besides..... I know I've seen you post that we should sell Gerrard instead, hold him responsible for what 10 others do on the pitch as well as himself, in his only bad season ever for us. Despite his decade plus of amazing service, and his rightful place as one of our best ever. So why doesn't that apply to Rafa too?

I think the thing is though that you have to make a strategic choice - i.e. is the way Rafa develops the systems beneath him what we want for the future almost as much as what he does with the first team. We have to accept the financial reality that we won't be competing for top players all the time and we need to have stability at the club to get the best out of the development program. The idea being to set up a dynastic approach whereby squads can be substantially built on homegrown players or players developed from a young age at the club in the way that Arsenal, Manchester United and Everton are doing and less turn over is needed.

United and ourselves had similarly traumatic summers but the fact they have had a long history of winning and a squad full of players developed there knowing what is required of them meant they cam through much better than us.

It's unfortunate that a/ we didn't give Rafa youth policy control from the start and b/ that we have had such a short period of his developmental control to judge him on when his worst season with the first team comes along.

In order for me to consider wanting him gone I would need to see a manager or a management structure which I thought would do better for us at all levels of the club.

[Vermilion]

PeteBest= fredo = Vermillion



Is anyone here apart from me not fredo? I'm now genuinely worried this whole site is actually the cat's idea of an elaborate practical joke.

ps. one L in Vermilion.

[red g]

We're all the same poster, including you.

Neil young + Fredo =

[Guest]

Besides..... I know I've seen you post that we should sell Gerrard instead, hold him responsible for what 10 others do on the pitch as well as himself, in his only bad season ever for us. Despite his decade plus of amazing service, and his rightful place as one of our best ever. So why doesn't that apply to Rafa too?

Gerrard has been flirting with disaster a number of times. Remember when Chelsea came courting? He is a brilliant player, probably my favourite player of the last 15 years but what I've seen from him at times this season has not gone down well with me.

It's all great when things go right but the true value of a person can be found when the chips are down, when a team has to pull together. Gerrard has cut a desolate figure at times, sulking and berating some of our young players (Ngog) which was a disgrace IMO. He should have been leading by example, especially during those bad moments. We need people with strong character, not just when things are going smoothly and it's where Gerrard consistently fails.

Credit to him for taking us out of a hole in Istanbul though and that's exactly what he should be doing now, not for one match, but for the whole season. I can spare him the odd bad game, but he couldn't be bothered in some games as he showed a total lack of effort and respect to his team mates in too many games.

[red g]

We're all the same poster, including you.

I think the thing is though that you have to make a strategic choice - i.e. is the way Rafa develops the systems beneath him what we want for the future almost as much as what he does with the first team. We have to accept the financial reality that we won't be competing for top players all the time and we need to have stability at the club to get the best out of the development program. The idea being to set up a dynastic approach whereby squads can be substantially built on homegrown players or players developed from a young age at the club in the way that Arsenal, Manchester United and Everton are doing and less turn over is needed.

United and ourselves had similarly traumatic summers but the fact they have had a long history of winning and a squad full of players developed there knowing what is required of them meant they cam through much better than us.

It's unfortunate that a/ we didn't give Rafa youth policy control from the start and b/ that we have had such a short period of his developmental control to judge him on when his worst season with the first team comes along.

In order for me to consider wanting him gone I would need to see a manager or a management structure which I thought would do better for us at all levels of the club.

Also after hearing all about the Parry near misses over the last few years, maybe Rafa does deserve a shot Parry-free.......well apart from we are now money free to

[Craig_H]

Hang on you, lets not put words in his mouth, I'm really interested. Because I admire his viewpoint, even if I am inclined to think he takes it more out of stubbornness than anything else. Which is why I'd like to understand more. And please no answers like "I'll support him as long as he's manager", because that isn't the question.

I'm not putting words in his mouth, that's honestly my best recollection of what he said. He definitely said 'never'.

I may be many things, but a liar, i am not I'm not always 100% in my recollections, but they're genuinely my best recollection Squire.

[Kenneth]

Besides..... I know I've seen you post that we should sell Gerrard instead, hold him responsible for what 10 others do on the pitch as well as himself, in his only bad season ever for us. Despite his decade plus of amazing service, and his rightful place as one of our best ever. So why doesn't that apply to Rafa too?

When Gerrard is a few years older than he is now, he'll won't be able to play at the top level. No reason why a manager as young as Rafa cannot manage at the top level for decades. Just one possible reason.

[Neil Young]

We're all the same poster, including you.

It's worse than I thought. Or worse than you thought. We all thought...?

ps. one L in Vermilion.

Neil young + Fredo =

Reported.

[Craig_H]

I'd give him another year but it will have to be under better financial conditions. I'm pretty sure he'll go if he can't see things changing from that point but that may not be the case as he's utterly stubborn and proud.

No manager is going to perform miracles under the same financial constraints, not even god, sorry Moanhihno.

That's not really answering the question mate

His first two years were building years so you can remove that from the equation. 3rd, 4th and 5th we've been steadily improving in the league but still lacked the extra resources (compared to clubs who invested a lot more than us) which would have made us champions, especially last year. Football is not a science so it's best to analyse things with a bit of perspective and try to plot a bigger picture. But we're too impatient as fans.

Wenger won the double in his first full season.

[Craig_H]

I seriously made that point to piss you off because you were getting on my nerves.

Course you did.

You were 'joking' werent you?

[Craig_H]

His first two years were building years so you can remove that from the equation.

his first 2 years was the last time we won anything.

That genuinely made me laugh.

listen pete, i'll level with you. i think your ideas are complicated enough to keep people arguing as you endlessly jump from one point to another (and this is entertaining etc) but they certainly do not add up coherent single idea.

[Guest]

But you can't do comparisons such as this Craig, it doesn't hold as each situation is different. You'd have to take into consideration conjecture, what were the levels of the teams which competed with Arsenal when he won the league etc ... Nowadays there are 5 teams with strong financial clout, excluding us, so it's allegedly harder. Add to that that winning the league for us is becoming a burden ....