The New Manager Thread

[red g]

i feel dirty, but i am warming to the idea of mourinho.

Thought i never would......but if it means we have to sell our soul to the devil to get back to the top of the tree so be it.

.

[Guest]

Fortunately your opinion counts for nothing Red_G as you're not calling the shots.

[red g]

Fortunately your opinion counts for nothing Red_G as you're not calling the shots.

luckily enough neither are you

[Guest]

luckily enough neither are you

I'm with the majority.

[MrMichael]

Gerrard has been flirting with disaster a number of times. Remember when Chelsea came courting? He is a brilliant player, probably my favourite player of the last 15 years but what I've seen from him at times this season has not gone down well with me.

True. Although someone could also make the case that the whole Chelsea thing after the CL win was a result of the club's bungling, and perhaps even Rafa's arm's-length style, not Gerrard himself. and its not like Rafa's never used speculation linking him to Madrid as a bargaining tool, or not been prone to the occasional ill-advised media dust-up etc.

It's all great when things go right but the true value of a person can be found when the chips are down, when a team has to pull together and try to sort out its problems. Gerrard has cut a desolate figure at times, sulking and berating some of our young players (Ngog) which is a disgrace IMO. He should have been leading by example, especially during those bad moments. We need people with strong character when we're in a quagmire, not when things are going smoothly and it's where Gerrard consistently fails.

Credit to him for taking us out of a hole in Istanbul though and that's exactly what he should be doing now, not for one match, but for the whole season. I can spare him the odd bad game, but he couldn't be bothered in some games as he showed a total lack of effort and respect to his team mates.

Really? Just Istanbul?

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vD80XYD1FvU"]YouTube- Steven Gerrard VS west ham fa cup final 90th min 2006[/nomedia]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt_xEjvJzPY"]YouTube- Gerrard v the mancs (Worthington Cup Final 2003)[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM5XP-Ps7tk"]YouTube- Steven Gerrard cracker vs Olympiakos[/ame]



etc etc etc

I know that's a cheap point to make, but for season after season after season Gerrard has done exactly what you say, lead from the front, and been there when we most needed him. Its arguable whether Rafa would still be LFC manager if it weren't for Gerrard's consistent form over seasons on end.

Yes, he's been well below par this year. Absolutely he has. However I find it very odd that people can make so many excuses for Rafa's errors this year (many of which I agree with btw, just saying) , yet not look for the reasons behind Gerrard's slump other than deciding he's somehow past it and is a petulant child. How that disrespect towards him is better than similar disrespect often shown to our manager in some people's eyes I don't quite get.

[Craig_H]

Gerrard has been flirting with disaster a number of times. Remember when Chelsea came courting? He is a brilliant player, probably my favourite player of the last 15 years but what I've seen from him at times this season has not gone down well with me.

It's all great when things go right but the true value of a person can be found when the chips are down, when a team has to pull together. Gerrard has cut a desolate figure at times, sulking and berating some of our young players (Ngog) which was a disgrace IMO. He should have been leading by example, especially during those bad moments. We need people with strong character, not just when things are going smoothly and it's where Gerrard consistently fails.

Credit to him for taking us out of a hole in Istanbul though and that's exactly what he should be doing now, not for one match, but for the whole season. I can spare him the odd bad game, but he couldn't be bothered in some games as he showed a total lack of effort and respect to his team mates in too many games.

I agree about seeing someone's true colours when the chips are down. Anyone can be great when things are going well. Ferguson and Drogba are two good examples, when they're winning and it's hunky dory, they're all friendly, polite and butter wouldnt melt. But we all know how they change when they lose.

That's not a fair thing to throw at SG though. He's done more for this club when the chips have been down, than anyone.

Remember Olympiacos? Remember the FA Cup final against WHU? Istanbul itself? All examples of when the chips were down, others dragged their heels in and were ready to die, but Gerrard fought on and dragged us through. Superhuman.

This season he's not shown the same character on a consistent basis, but it's the impact of YEARS of seeing nobody else show willing when the chips are down, other than himself. It takes its toll. Then we had last season, where it all came together and he must've thought this was finally the time it was going to happen. All the hard work, pain and suffering was finally going to be rewarded. And then the house of cards fell away at the end.

You can hardly blame him for struggling to maintain the strength of character 100% of the time. He's let it slip for one season out of his whole career. Well hey, everyone's allowed a blip, not least someone who's simply been the best all round player in the world, for a number of years.

You said:

" We need people with strong character, not just when things are going smoothly and it's where Gerrard consistently fails"

I dont think you can say Gerrard 'consistently fails'. On the contrary, he's consistently succeeded and delivered - barring one season. And his previous heroics have bought him leeway for one season.

[barnes10]

this is a bit of a bull**** topic to be fair as its complete fantasy that we will take a step forward if we sack rafa. if we lose/replace rafa then surely we want the best manager around as his replacement. otherwise whats the point in doing it? its just taking a random punt on someone with a worse record of success than rafa.

if its short term only then we can hire a man in his 60s. if we want something longer then thats out of the question.

therefore the best possible option to replace rafa is mourinho.

the problem with mourinho is that its totally unrealsitic. a non-starter. not going to happen. so why are we even talking about it?

rafa's hands are tied due to owners and resources. mourinho wouldnt touch us under those circumstances. hasnt he had a 'friend' state that in public on his behalf?

so either the circumstances change - in which case would we not reassess rafa - a tactical genius and a gent who loves the club - and give him proper backing? or, as mourinho isnt an option without changing circumstances, we sack rafa and hire someone like oneil.

oneil is tactically naieve and wouldnt beat mourinho in a CL tie or fergie/wenger in the league. why the fook would we want that? just so we sign two wingers and play a 442 and 'back to basics' football? if he was 39 then i'd give him a go. but he isnt and isnt going to be getting any better.

rafa's not the problem. mourinho isn't going to happen and until the yank fooks go, we'll be overachieving to get 4th.

[red g]

I'm with the majority.

[Craig_H]

But you can't do comparisons such as this Craig, it doesn't hold as each situation is different. You'd have to take into consideration conjecture, what were the levels of the teams which competed with Arsenal when he won the league etc ... Nowadays there are 5 teams with strong financial clout, excluding us, so it's allegedly harder. Add to that that winning the league for us is becoming a burden ....

Thing is though, you think i'm just looking at the table and drawing a conclusion, ignoring everything else. I'm not.

I do take everything into account and my viewpoint is based on an 'all things considered' train of thought.

The fact that i take everything into account is why my level of expectation has diminished from targetting the title as a realistic expectation, to then challenging for the title, to now - qualifying for the CL without fuss.

If i wasnt taking other things into account, i'd be sticking to my view from a fair while ago, that we should be at least challenging for (if not winning) the title. But i'm not sticking to that, i've adjusted things in view of the external factors that are out of rafa's hands.

I'm with the majority.

What majority? I've already told you that matchgoing support is nigh on 50/50, with regards to wanting rafa to remain.


And this is one topic you're not going to be better informed about than me, on.

[Scratch]

Ignoring the tedious debate as to whether the fans want Rafa out (the majority do not, by the way, whatever Craig and -V- seem to believe, cos the majority realise that one bad season, a season ripped apart by injuries to key players and troubles at the top, is not a reason to sack a worldclass manager) then if i was to want someone else in charge of the club, i would go for someone who has a proven record, who can get the most out of a young squad and young up-and-coming players and is used to working with a minimal budget by todays standards...i give you......Arsene Wenger.

Not that he'd ever leave Arsenal for us mind you.

[Craig_H]

class picture

[Craig_H]

Ignoring the tedious debate as to whether the fans want Rafa out (the majority do not, by the way, whatever Craig and -V- seem to believe, cos the majority realise that one bad season, a season ripped apart by injuries to key players and troubles at the top, is not a reason to sack a worldclass manager) then if i was to want someone else in charge of the club, i would go for someone who has a proven record, who can get the most out of a young squad and young up-and-coming players and is used to working with a minimal budget by todays standards...i give you......Arsene Wenger.

Not that he'd ever leave Arsenal for us mind you.

I've said matchgoing fans. I cant legislate for the rest of them. Of those at games, it's about half and half.

[Scratch]

I dont think you can say Gerrard 'consistently fails'. On the contrary, he's consistently succeeded and delivered - barring one season. And his previous heroics have bought him leeway for one season.

As has Rafa, given the constraints he has had to work under, consistently succeeded and delivered...baring one season...and his previous heroics have bought him leeway for one season.

[Guest]

Istanbul was his greatest moment that's why I pinpointed that moment instead of the others but of course, that was implied. I am not arguing against the fact he's been immense for us and I can understand his frustration when things have gone pear shaped but that shouldn't be an excuse for him sulking and berating young players who are learning their trade.

And let's not forget another thing, he has been transformed from a very good player to a world class one by Rafa despite playing 'out of position' many times. Maybe he would have turned out that good a player if Rafa wasn't there but we would never know but let's give the boss credit for that for once. And if Gerrard has been our saviour so many times, some of that can be reflected upon Rafa himself.

To conclude I will just say that I've always thought that Rafa's whole tenure at Anfield is generally positive and our club is in a far better position than 5 years ago. Despite not winning anything of note during the last 3 years, we've always been competing for the CL and at a lesser level for the league, which came to its culmination under his reign last year. This season has been awful, depressing and the football on offer was appalling but I think that there are too many mitigating circumstances for us to state with certainty that Rafa has lost it.

[Craig_H]

As has Rafa, given the constraints he has had to work under, consistently succeeded and delivered...baring one season...and his previous heroics have bought him leeway for one season.

Rafa hasnt reached the same level of heights as a Liverpool mananger, that Gerrard has as a player, at the same levels of consistency.

As for constraints - Gerrard's had plenty too. He's had to perform surrounded by average/****e players for much of his time, yet still reached a world class level of performance on year-in, year-out basis.

Comparing what rafa's done in the context of LFC manager, to what Gerrard's done in the context of LFC player, is an insult to the skipper.