Post-mortem Northampton

[Chrono]

gutted frigging gutted about what has happened.. firstly the 2 yank wanks secondly their management team who may have commercial nous know **** all about footie and finally the removal of Rafa for this old muppet.....sigh...

Can't imagine why you were sin binned. Moron.

[Lecter]

I said it at the time I couldnt believe we were after Roy and I still cant believe we got him.

He has done nothing to deserve a shot at one of the biggest jobs in Europe and has done nothing to convince me he can handle it.Our board wont sack him though as that will be an admittance that they know **** all about the game.we went for Roy cos he was the media darling and they thought well if the media like him that'll do for us,Broughton even alluded to the media's opinion being a factor. As has been said already if Rafa produced that display and team last night the media wouldve ripped him to shreds but it wont happen to Roy,all his mates in the game will come out and tell us he needs more time etc.

Fact is he shouldnt be here but regardless I see no point sacking him till we have new owners,and I said that exact sentence about Rafa last summer too

One of the best quotes I've heard about Hodgsons appointment was someone who suggested that on New Years Day LFC TV is going to have a live special whereupon Rafa steps out of the shower and we are told the season so far has been a dream

[Lecter]

I don't think we will get as many points as many think in the next five games.

Blackpool is the only more or less safe three point game but even that one isn't a banker the way we are playing.

Sunderland this weekend will be a very tough game. If the players don't show better attitude and Roy continue to play his negative style then I can see them winning the game.

If we lose that game then it could very well mean that we will end up in a very difficult position close to the bottom of the table. Do Roy and the players have the attitude and confidence for a relegation fight?

I can't see us finish in the top half if Roy stay. I simply can't. It will be a fight to stay in the PL with players like Reina and Torres sold and not replaced in January.

Agreed I dont even think Blackpool is a "banker"

Seriously they actually play attacking football and the way our defence is could cause us problems

[G]

But the reason for this is because Rafa didn't play the game. I'm not saying he should and I'm pleased he basically told the media to go **** themselves but if you take that stance you are a walking target. Roy is clearly more diplomatic and keeps a wider base of friends.

It reminds me of people who keep all sorts of company knowing they are cunts or those that have a small circle and refuse to be flexible enough to tolerate these folk. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Fair point

Problem I have most is dickhead sky generation supporters hanging on journo's every word.I have little time for those mongs and thankfully this place seems to be lacking in them.nothing worse that ****s like what PTP described giving it large while knowing **** all about whats really going on at the club.

Roy needs to get his finger out and soon or the fans support will disappear very quickly despite his mates in the media best attempts to convince us the root of all evil is in Milan

[S-RED]

I dont even think Blackpool is a "banker"

Seriously they actually play attacking football and the way our defence is could cause us problems

God thats depressing, how far have we sunk

[Lecter]

Nicked from elsewhere

I've read a few posts now saying 'give Roy a chance'. 'the players are just as much to blame'. I have decided to post the reasons why I feel Hodgson is the most culpable person for this result. Feel free to counter argue if you disagree.

Firstly he made 11 changes for a cup game. Now, when Benitez first started mass rotations the media were up in arms, saying he did not take the cup seriously. But Benitez always left experienced players on the bench as a fall back in case things got tricky. Hodgson did no such thing. While I welcomed the change in personnel (though was frankly concerned at so many changes) not having any experience in case of emergency was a bad mistake.

The make up and formation of the team was also questionable. Hodgson effectively played 4 Cbs in a flat back four. I know Kelly has played quite a bit at RB but he is more suited to a central berth, while Wilson is still raw and an unknown quantity, but was signed as a CB. Again, while it can be argued that players playing FB rather than CB is not that problematic, there was no plan B on the bench, no back-up in case it all went wrong.

In midfield we had the inexperienced Spearing and Pacheco, as well as the experienced Lucas and newbie but experienced Jova. Unfortunately the make-up of the midfield was unbalanced. Pacheco is an attacking player who is usually played centrally and behind the strike force. Jova is a wide man who hugs the touchline. Last night Spearing and Lucas played deep like you would in a 433, Jova stayed wide like a standard winger in 442, while pacheco kept cutting into central positions. The result was massive gaps all over the pitch, put particularly across the middle of the park.

Up front both Ngog and Babel seemed confused as to their role. Were they playing a 442 side by side, or a 433 with Babel in the hole? In the end both players just ran to wherever they thought they could get the ball. Babel kept occupying the same space as Jova, while Ngog kept dropping off to try to receive the ball. There was no synergy between the forwards and none between the forwards and midfield.

The game panned out strangely, a static backline rarely venturing forward, a wayward midfield following their own instincts rather than a gameplan and unorthodox forward play by strikers unclear as to the role they were playing. The shape of the team was poor and needed direction, but none was forthcoming from the manager.

After the game Hodgson claimed that the team didn't play as he wanted them to, until the last 15 minutes. This criticism of the the team by the manager (and I really don't like our manager making comments like this) automatically generates the following question. If you didn't like the way the team was playing, why didn't you change it? This is the next mistake by the manager, imo, the slowness of reaction. It was not until the 90 minutes that he made his first change. The same lack of gameplan and discordant formation was in evidence and still in use in normal playing time. Why wait so long to make a move? Is that not poor management? Even when the change came, it made little sense. One of our experienced players (Jova) was taken off from a wide position and replaced by Ecclestone, a would be forward. Now the imbalance on the right was being mirrored by the imbalance on the left. Little wonder that a tiring and ragged Wilson was caught out of position and lacking cover for the second goal. With no experience on the bench and changes coming so late, inexperienced and young players like Wilson and Pacheco were out on their feet.

the next change when it came was also inexplicable. Jonjo, a box to box midfielder, came on for Ryan Babel. Now, say what you like about Babel and his performance, but taking him off when a goal was needed and penalties in the offing for a midfielder was not the move of a man with a clear plan. Rather it was reactive, and while Jonjo did well, it still reflects the managers bizarre frame of mind. The final substitution was even more unusual, Young Ince, a raw talent, but not the man to get goals or be in place for penalties came on for a flagging Pacheco. Now, having Pacheco for penalties would have been useful, but I can understand the need to replace him... but for someone so far from first team football?

In the end we clawed back a goal, but only in the most ridiculous manner. We sent a CB up front, played 3 at the back and started balls long in the hope Soto would get a flick on. That is the recourse of the desperate, a long ball game unsuited to a top side... however, Hodgson later admitted that it was during this period that the team played as he wanted them to. Is this what Hodgson wants from his team? 3 CBs pumping long balls over the the top of a mish mash of midfielders to a big man up front? Is that where we want our manager to take us as a club?

The final error as I see it was in the selection of the penalty takers. Selecting a raft of youngster to take the penalties was a mistake, originating from the lack of experienced options on the bench and compounded by the decision to withdraw our most experienced players (Babel and Jova, the goal scorer) from the pitch. Ecclestone should not have been asked to take on such a responsibility, nor should Jonjo (though kudos to him, he took his goal well).

Ultimately this was a failing of management, someone who did not take the competition or the opposition seriously, put out a poorly balanced and prepared team, failed to rectify errors due to a lack of options from the bench or an alternative plan B if plan A failed and who selected too many inexperienced and raw players for the final test, a penalty shoot-out.

One final observation; When Benitez struggled to make 4th last year, at least he was competing for that position, and that was with a raft of injuries and poor officiating decisions (beachball). Already with nearly the same team Hodgson has us mired near relegation and out of a cup. He has already as good as said in the media we need to re-evaluate our expectations, that this team is not good enough to challenge. Thing is, only 2 of the players he brought in were on show and he withdrew 1 of those. Where was Cole, Poulsen and Meireles last night? They all need playing time for match fitness and to gel with team mates. How come they weren't at least on the bench? They are his players after all.

[red g]

very very very difficult to argue any of the above.

[Rich]

Nicked from elsewhere

I've read a few posts now saying 'give Roy a chance'. 'the players are just as much to blame'. I have decided to post the reasons why I feel Hodgson is the most culpable person for this result. Feel free to counter argue if you disagree.

Firstly he made 11 changes for a cup game. Now, when Benitez first started mass rotations the media were up in arms, saying he did not take the cup seriously. But Benitez always left experienced players on the bench as a fall back in case things got tricky. Hodgson did no such thing. While I welcomed the change in personnel (though was frankly concerned at so many changes) not having any experience in case of emergency was a bad mistake.

The make up and formation of the team was also questionable. Hodgson effectively played 4 Cbs in a flat back four. I know Kelly has played quite a bit at RB but he is more suited to a central berth, while Wilson is still raw and an unknown quantity, but was signed as a CB. Again, while it can be argued that players playing FB rather than CB is not that problematic, there was no plan B on the bench, no back-up in case it all went wrong.

In midfield we had the inexperienced Spearing and Pacheco, as well as the experienced Lucas and newbie but experienced Jova. Unfortunately the make-up of the midfield was unbalanced. Pacheco is an attacking player who is usually played centrally and behind the strike force. Jova is a wide man who hugs the touchline. Last night Spearing and Lucas played deep like you would in a 433, Jova stayed wide like a standard winger in 442, while pacheco kept cutting into central positions. The result was massive gaps all over the pitch, put particularly across the middle of the park.

Up front both Ngog and Babel seemed confused as to their role. Were they playing a 442 side by side, or a 433 with Babel in the hole? In the end both players just ran to wherever they thought they could get the ball. Babel kept occupying the same space as Jova, while Ngog kept dropping off to try to receive the ball. There was no synergy between the forwards and none between the forwards and midfield.

The game panned out strangely, a static backline rarely venturing forward, a wayward midfield following their own instincts rather than a gameplan and unorthodox forward play by strikers unclear as to the role they were playing. The shape of the team was poor and needed direction, but none was forthcoming from the manager.

After the game Hodgson claimed that the team didn't play as he wanted them to, until the last 15 minutes. This criticism of the the team by the manager (and I really don't like our manager making comments like this) automatically generates the following question. If you didn't like the way the team was playing, why didn't you change it? This is the next mistake by the manager, imo, the slowness of reaction. It was not until the 90 minutes that he made his first change. The same lack of gameplan and discordant formation was in evidence and still in use in normal playing time. Why wait so long to make a move? Is that not poor management? Even when the change came, it made little sense. One of our experienced players (Jova) was taken off from a wide position and replaced by Ecclestone, a would be forward. Now the imbalance on the right was being mirrored by the imbalance on the left. Little wonder that a tiring and ragged Wilson was caught out of position and lacking cover for the second goal. With no experience on the bench and changes coming so late, inexperienced and young players like Wilson and Pacheco were out on their feet.

the next change when it came was also inexplicable. Jonjo, a box to box midfielder, came on for Ryan Babel. Now, say what you like about Babel and his performance, but taking him off when a goal was needed and penalties in the offing for a midfielder was not the move of a man with a clear plan. Rather it was reactive, and while Jonjo did well, it still reflects the managers bizarre frame of mind. The final substitution was even more unusual, Young Ince, a raw talent, but not the man to get goals or be in place for penalties came on for a flagging Pacheco. Now, having Pacheco for penalties would have been useful, but I can understand the need to replace him... but for someone so far from first team football?

In the end we clawed back a goal, but only in the most ridiculous manner. We sent a CB up front, played 3 at the back and started balls long in the hope Soto would get a flick on. That is the recourse of the desperate, a long ball game unsuited to a top side... however, Hodgson later admitted that it was during this period that the team played as he wanted them to. Is this what Hodgson wants from his team? 3 CBs pumping long balls over the the top of a mish mash of midfielders to a big man up front? Is that where we want our manager to take us as a club?

The final error as I see it was in the selection of the penalty takers. Selecting a raft of youngster to take the penalties was a mistake, originating from the lack of experienced options on the bench and compounded by the decision to withdraw our most experienced players (Babel and Jova, the goal scorer) from the pitch. Ecclestone should not have been asked to take on such a responsibility, nor should Jonjo (though kudos to him, he took his goal well).

Ultimately this was a failing of management, someone who did not take the competition or the opposition seriously, put out a poorly balanced and prepared team, failed to rectify errors due to a lack of options from the bench or an alternative plan B if plan A failed and who selected too many inexperienced and raw players for the final test, a penalty shoot-out.

One final observation; When Benitez struggled to make 4th last year, at least he was competing for that position, and that was with a raft of injuries and poor officiating decisions (beachball). Already with nearly the same team Hodgson has us mired near relegation and out of a cup. He has already as good as said in the media we need to re-evaluate our expectations, that this team is not good enough to challenge. Thing is, only 2 of the players he brought in were on show and he withdrew 1 of those. Where was Cole, Poulsen and Meireles last night? They all need playing time for match fitness and to gel with team mates. How come they weren't at least on the bench? They are his players after all.

Agree with pretty much all of that.

[Kenneth]

Can nobody give their views without defending Rafa at the same time?

[Kenneth]

very very very difficult to argue any of the above.

Apart from 'mired near relegation'. It's september ffs.

[red g]

Agreed I dont even think Blackpool is a "banker"

Seriously they actually play attacking football and the way our defence is could cause us problems

probably one of the hardest games.....Holloway will have them pumped up and they will have massive desire, lets face it.....any team coming toAnfield will be coming with the mindset, well we are beter than Northampton

I ahvea horrible vision of that game where Blackpool come to anfield and outplay us, playing way better football

[red g]

Apart from 'mired near relegation'. It's september ffs.

regardless of the timeframe its a fact.

[Tee]

Can nobody give their views without defending Rafa at the same time?

Yes.

[alunevans]

I think the early calls of "sack him" show why we should have gone for Kenny not Roy. I don't understand why boards go for a manager that the supporters are skeptical of. At least if Kenny had had such a poor start people would be with him rather than piling on the pressure.

I have to agree with 90% of the criticism of the way we are playing at the moment and I'm concerned.

But I do think the whole "we are on the verge of relegation" is a bit disingenuous though at the moment. There's only been 5 games and it's just as true to say that we are only 3 points from 4th.

The league is wide open and a decentish run will catapult teams up the table very quickly.

I have a lot of concerns about how we're playing at the moment and how we're set out, but I can't join the "sack him" group after 5 league games.

My view is that most managers don't really add a great deal of value, and then there are a minority who add tons, and another minority who take tons away. I suspect Roy is in the first group who are basically competent and get their teams to where they should be.

Given the influence that wages play in deciding the league table, I'd guess our wage bill is now the 5th highest in the league (used to be 4th highest but I'm certain City have overtaken us now), suggesting that a Liverpool manager who adds nothing but also takes nothing away will finish 5th.

Out of interest, the two managers who consistently outdo their "wage table" position are O'Neill and Moyes. It's a pity that O'Neill hadn't walked a little sooner as I'd have taken him in a heartbeat.

It's **** at the moment, but surely we have to go beyond 5 league games before demanding sackings?

[Kenneth]

regardless of the timeframe its a fact.

No it's not. We are not near relegation, nobody is at this stage, irrespective of league position.