West Ham post-match

[cream]

Stevie is not a central midfielder and should never be played as one. If we continue to play Stevie and Meireles, then we need a top quality defensive midfielder to play behind them.

[Lecter]

I see, so if one player makes a mistake during an opponent's move, all mistakes or poor play subsequent to that mistake are completely ignored?

No but I think you have to look at the root cause of the goals

Carragher wasnt to blame for the 2nd and 3rd

Maybe the first you could argue yes

Skrtl was at fault for the 3rd hes a ****ing wimp

Second one Wilson shouldnt have gone for that thats basic fundamental defending he got drawn out

[DannyMan2006]

I love Gerrard but i didnt see him bust a gut today, infact I thought he was poor, gave the ball away alot

To get forward he did bust a gut, at times. To get back, he didn't. Half the time he would wave his arms up in the air in disgust and leave it to Lucas to save the day.

Under Houllier he would get up and down all game and he had the energy for it. Now he doesn't and needs to change his game up if he is to play 442.

[Mattshark]

Matt, I don't doubt that my view of a game is not the way it goes down. And so someone could say that teh use of stats would be better than my individual opinion.

But when all is said and down you and I both watch how the game goes down. We don't need to look at stats to say if a player has had a bad game.

EXAMPLE (not based on fact)

Everytime Lucas gets the ball he passes to Gerrard who demands the ball. Gerrard plays an attacking ball. These balls are say 60/40 in regards to coming off. They create two scoring chances in which we score neither. Stats: Gerrard 70% possession. Lucas 89% possession.

Lucas has the better passing. But he plays the safe ball to Gerrard. Gerrard takes responsibility and trys the ball that is not always on. Called the "percentage ball" by some. Sometimes it comes off, often it does not.

The above exmaple is NOT based on fact. But it is one way to describe how stats do not tell the full story in football.

Even in Baseball, where stats count for more, stats do not tell the whole story. Sometimes a player will make a run/hit that will depend on the circumstances as opposed to going for glory.

Danny, this is regarding a position of foul, stats are ideal for covering this. Personal perception is highly unreliable.

I understand stats and there use very well.

[Kenneth]

Danny, this is regarding a position of foul, stats are ideal for covering this. Personal perception is highly unreliable.

I understand stats and there use very well.

So what's a dangerous position?

[Mattshark]

Now who is being ****ing stupid

You showed stats from last season!!

When he didnt play the holding role

I'm talking about this

When he IS playing the holding role

Thanks for the effort but please dont try harder your are making too much of a fool out of yourself as it is

He played as a holding midfielder alongside Mascherano, we commonly played 2 DM's last season.

Mascherano gave away 8fk's in dangerous positions and one pen, does he do it every game too?

The facts do not back up your assertion. And don't patronise because you are wilfully ignorant.

[Mattshark]

So what's a dangerous position?

I went with final third, seemed a decent area. If you want edge of the box, Lucas conceded 1 fk last season.

[DannyMan2006]

Danny, this is regarding a position of foul, stats are ideal for covering this. Personal perception is highly unreliable.

I understand stats and there use very well.

Of course, as Lec says, what Lucas did last season doen't mean jack for what he does this season.

Though in fairness, most personal opionon by persons will be judging lucas on what he did from when he joined - which isn't fair.

My opinion is that lucas has beeen one of our better players this year. I still harbour doubts on his ideal position in a side, where he fits in long term would depend on how Kenny wants the side to go forward.

[Arn]

You'd have the same problem with another player

The job of a decent manager is to be the man who gets the best out of players such as Gerrard

Rafa managed that - now its Kennys turn

I would say I'm not convinced that Raul & Gerrard can play in the same side

Gerrard will be and is KK biggest problem. How to fit him into the side. He still hasn't solved that problem and if he doesn't solve it then we won't win any titles.

Sell him and you get rid of that problem. Then other players would take more responsibility IMO.

There are many better players out there that would do a much better job. Gerrard has only delivered a few times the last 20 months or so. That is a long time and he may have delivered 10-15 games during that 20 months.

He gone from excellent and one of the best players out there to almost a passenger. That is a big step down. A ****ing big one.

You simply can't build the team and tactics around him. He must accept being benched and one of a number of options and not an automatic starter in every game.

I doubt that he would accept that. The day he isn't in the starting XI in every game that day he will leave IMO.

Either you play him or you sell him. Bench him isn't an option.

[Mattshark]

Of course, as Lec says, what Lucas did last season doen't mean jack for what he does this season.

Though in fairness, most personal opionon by persons will be judging lucas on what he did from when he joined - which isn't fair.

My opinion is that lucas has beeen one of our better players this year. I still harbour doubts on his ideal position in a side, where he fits in long term would depend on how Kenny wants the side to go forward.

Lucas commented on last season and that is easy to check out, facts show he is wrong he has the cheek to say I am being foolish.

[Lecter]

He played as a holding midfielder alongside Mascherano, we commonly played 2 DM's last season.

Mascherano gave away 8fk's in dangerous positions and one pen, does he do it every game too?

The facts do not back up your assertion. And don't patronise because you are wilfully ignorant.

No we didnt play two holding players last season

There is a difference between being a holding player and a defensive midfielder

Mascherano, Hamann are holding players they sit in front of the back four

Alonso was not a holding player he played further forward the same role Lucas fulfilled for us last season

There is a difference between a defensive midfielder and a holding player

So for a player playing further forward he gave away more freekicks in dangerous positions than our actual out and out holding player

Now who is the ignorant one

[Lecter]

Gerrard will be and is KK biggest problem. How to fit him into the side. He still hasn't solved that problem and if he doesn't solve it then we won't win any titles.

Sell him and you get rid of that problem. Then other players would take more responsibility IMO.

There are many better players out there that would do a much better job. Gerrard has only delivered a few times the last 20 months or so. That is a long time and he may have delivered 10-15 games during that 20 months.

He gone from excellent and one of the best players out there to almost a passenger. That is a big step down. A ****ing big one.

You simply can't build the team and tactics around him. He must accept being benched and one of a number of options and not an automatic starter in every game.

I doubt that he would accept that. The day he isn't in the starting XI in every game that day he will leave IMO.

Either you play him or you sell him. Bench him isn't an option.

You could argue exactly the same for Meireles

Thats the thing

Meireles best position is also Gerrards best position

Anything else is a compromise and will affect the overall quality of the side

To me no matter what system we play we can only play one or the other

That said still wouldnt sell Gerrard I think thats a folly

[Robster007]

We were overpowered in midfield. I think the tactics were off personally.

They allowed us no time on the ball and we just don't have the quality to cope with that.

[Mostar]

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/latest-news/kenny-on-west-ham-and-kelly-injury

Kenny on West Ham and Kelly injury

Kenny Dalglish admitted Liverpool deserved nothing from the game after their 3-1 loss to West Ham United.

Goals from Scott Parker, Demba Ba and Carlton Cole consigned the Reds to their first defeat in nine games, with a late tap-in from Glen Johnson ultimately proving inconsequential.

The afternoon was made even more forgettable from a Liverpool perspective by injuries to Martin Kelly and Raul Meireles.

The former could now face several weeks on the sidelines with a hamstring tear.

Dalglish said: "He has pulled his hamstring and Raul got a kick in the knee. Obviously Martin is more serious than Raul.

"With a hamstring he might be struggling for next Sunday (against Manchester United) - though I wouldn't take it as a given because I wouldn't know. But I would have thought with a hamstring it takes a bit longer than a week. With Raul we don't know."

Dalglish had overseen a sequence of eight games unbeaten until Sunday's loss.

On the performance of his side, the Liverpool manager added: "The players have done fantastic up until here and I suppose there was always going to be some time when we lost a game.

"I think the credit the boys have had has been deserved and I think they'll stand up and be honest with themselves today and say they probably got what they deserved - and that was nothing.

"We are disappointed with the way we played. We started by looking comfortable at the beginning but they got a goal - that gave them something to hold on to and something to make them believe in themselves.

"There was nothing West Ham did that surprised us because they are fighting for survival. After they scored they got a lot of belief but we never played as well as we're capable of playing, we never passed it as well as we can pass it and we never took the chances that came our way.

"The last 20-25 minutes we started to play a little bit like we can play. We got the goal quite near the end and I thought maybe we'd steal a point but Carlton Cole got a goal at the other end.

"There were a couple of penalty shouts and maybe a break of the ball here and there but we'll go in on Tuesday morning and try and manage and correct the mistakes we've made. That's all we can do.

"I don't know whether this was the aftermath for some of the boys from what happened on Thursday night, because that was a tough game. We didn't seem to be as good as we have been.

"It's not just losing that's disappointing - it's the way we played."

Liverpool now have a week before Alex Ferguson brings his league leaders to Anfield.

Reporters asked whether record signing Andy Carroll would recover from a thigh injury in time to make his debut.

"He's better than bang on schedule," said Dalglish. "We never pencilled in a date when Andy's going to play. As soon as he's okay we'll get him involved. Whether that's next week, the week after or after that, we'll just have to wait and see. There is nothing that has happened since he came in that's had an adverse effect on his progress."

Meanwhile, Dalglish was probed on whether reports in a Sunday newspaper that he had been offered a two-year contract were true.

"A contract from who?" Dalglish replied, with a look of confusion on his face.

The reporter replied "From the club" before Dalglish quipped: "I thought you meant the wife was putting me under contract again!

"If there is any news to be told we'll tell you. I'm happy to be here, I'll do what I've got to do for the club that means an awful lot to me.

"There's never been a discussion other than the first ones so I'm not sure where they (the Sunday newspaper) have got that from."

[Exiled_red]

Controversial........

When was the last time Reina made a worthwhile save? It seems every week he saves what he should do, but when it comes to pulling one out the bag it goes in the net. I guess a better judge than me could just say he has good positional sense and the ones that go in are not saveable.

Thoughts???

I think Reina's big strength under Rafa was his ability to read the game, be quick off him line in the sweeper-keeper role and eliminate danger before he had to make a save. He also was decent on crosses and got into good positions to save shots that come in, rather than have to make scrambling last ditch spectacular saves. He also had a settled back line infront of him.

I think that he's been playing the sweeper keeper role less this season and having an unsettled defence doesn't help. I still think in general his positioning is very good, and gets into positions to make comfortable saves. Apart from a couple of mistakes this season he's been fine.