West Ham post-match

[Lecter]

agreed lec. i was convinced the change in desire/attacking intent and 'bodies pushing forward' were down to new tactics and instruction.

after the last to 'Roy speacials' i seriously doubt how much we genuinely will be going for the jugular. prague and west ham and we set out like we're facing real and barca. cant understand that one. is clarke off sick or something?

I think its deifintely instructions BUT I think last couple of games weve been carrying a couple of passengers Cole in the week and 2nd half and Gerrard today

They just didnt look fit

Meireles has also looked out of sorts since going off against Wigan

I'd definitely be looking for my midfielders to up their game in terms of pressing, passing and hitting the box

[Fredo]

I didn't watch the first half today. We are definitely more 'open' now as we are taking more risks when we attack, which leaves us exposed when we lose the ball (plus we don't have the personnel to hurt teams as much when we have it). Gaping holes were appearing when we lost the ball, and West Ham were cutting through us on the counter.

Apart from that, especially for the last 20 minutes, I think we were quite good. Our fitness and superior passing clearly showed and we could even had levelled the game before they scored that sucker 3rd goal. As has been said in this thread, I think the lack of fitness of some players were detrimental to us today.

I wouldn't be too concerned by this defeat, damage had already been done in the 6 months prior to Kenny coming back. Had we had him since the start of the season, I'm sure we would have been fighting for 4th place at this stage.

[BigChief]

I think West Ham have just shown teams how to play against our 3-5-2 system. Home or away. Basically, flood the midfield and press us high up the pitch so Skrtel has more touches than we'd like.

Everyone was marked while Lucas had 30-40 yards to run with the ball unchallenged. Not having a go at Lucas who was not bad today, but just that the oppos know who to keep the ball away from.

[Lecter]

I think West Ham have just shown teams how to play against our 3-5-2 system. Home or away. Basically, flood the midfield and press us high up the pitch so Skrtel has more touches than we'd like.

Everyone was marked while Lucas had 30-40 yards to run with the ball unchallenged. Not having a go at Lucas who was not bad today, but just that the oppos know who to keep the ball away from.

It is ESSENTIAL that one of your 3 centrehalves can carry the ball out of the back in a 3-5-2. This is so he can draw one of the opposition midfielders to create space for one of ours which then starts a chain reaction as you shift the ball forward

I thought Wilson did this a bit the first 20 or so minutes but once we conceeded he retreated into his shell

[spanky]

we just looked tired all over the pitch, tactics aside

[JBOX]

we just looked tired all over the pitch, tactics aside

It just looked that way 'coz of the SERIOUS lack of pace in the side.

[Arn]

I think its deifintely instructions BUT I think last couple of games weve been carrying a couple of passengers Cole in the week and 2nd half and Gerrard today

They just didnt look fit

Meireles has also looked out of sorts since going off against Wigan

I'd definitely be looking for my midfielders to up their game in terms of pressing, passing and hitting the box

So why did Gerrard play then if he isn't fit. Then we are back with the point that you simply can't bench him even if it hurt the team and tactics.

Meireles is the best option in that position at the moment and that means that Gerrard should be benched. He shouldn't walk straight back into the team and by that way force the manager to change tactic to suit him.

Right now it looks like KK thinks that Gerrard is bigger than the club and that he will play no matter what, even if it make other players worse.

If KK can't solve the Gerrard problem then he isn't the right manager for us. It is simply his biggest problem.

Right now Meireles should play because he deserves it and Gerrard should wait for his chance and until he is fit again but as I said, Gerrard is Gerrard and you simply don't drop him.

[Arn]

It just looked that way 'coz of the SERIOUS lack of pace in the side.

and that problem start at the back. It is difficult when you are up against an organized defence all the time because players like Carragher and Skrtel isn't good enough controlling the ball. Then you add Kuyt and the problem get even worse. Then you add a Captain that only worked his socks off a few games the last 20 months and it get even worse.

Get rid of ALL the players that isn't good enough controlling the ball and I mean all of them. We must have eleven players on the pitch all the time that can control the ball. That is step one to make us play quicker. If you have one player that isn't good enough controlling the ball then it hurt the team a lot and you get a lot less quick counter attacks. One player.

-------------------------Reina
Johnson---------Agger------------Wilson-------Aurelio
------------------------Lucas--------------------
-----------Meireles--------------Gerrard-------------
--------Suarez---------------------------Sterling-----
------------------------Carroll-------------------------

A system with eleven players that actually can play quick pass and move football. No wood-legs in there.

The key point is to play without any player that can't play quick pass and move football.

[Gibbo]

and that problem start at the back. It is difficult when you are up against an organized defence all the time because players like Carragher and Skrtel isn't good enough controlling the ball. Then you add Kuyt and the problem get even worse. Then you add a Captain that only worked his socks off a few games the last 20 months and it get even worse.

Get rid of ALL the players that isn't good enough controlling the ball and I mean all of them. We must have eleven players on the pitch all the time that can control the ball. That is step one to make us play quicker. If you have one player that isn't good enough controlling the ball then it hurt the team a lot and you get a lot less quick counter attacks. One player.

-------------------------Reina
Johnson---------Agger------------Wilson-------Aurelio
------------------------Lucas--------------------
-----------Meireles--------------Gerrard-------------
--------Suarez---------------------------Sterling-----
------------------------Carroll-------------------------

A system with eleven players that actually can play quick pass and move football. No wood-legs in there.

The key point is to play without any player that can't play quick pass and move football.

I have massive hopes for Sterling also, but that would take throwing in at the deep end to a whole new level, far to early to be thinking about first team football for him imo, we haven't even seen him with the proper squad.

[Lecter]

and that problem start at the back. It is difficult when you are up against an organized defence all the time because players like Carragher and Skrtel isn't good enough controlling the ball. Then you add Kuyt and the problem get even worse. Then you add a Captain that only worked his socks off a few games the last 20 months and it get even worse.

Get rid of ALL the players that isn't good enough controlling the ball and I mean all of them. We must have eleven players on the pitch all the time that can control the ball. That is step one to make us play quicker. If you have one player that isn't good enough controlling the ball then it hurt the team a lot and you get a lot less quick counter attacks. One player.

-------------------------Reina
Johnson---------Agger------------Wilson-------Aurelio
------------------------Lucas--------------------
-----------Meireles--------------Gerrard-------------
--------Suarez---------------------------Sterling-----
------------------------Carroll-------------------------

A system with eleven players that actually can play quick pass and move football. No wood-legs in there.

The key point is to play without any player that can't play quick pass and move football.

That side would get absolutely bullied and you are relying on a 12 year old who is about 3st and 3ft 4" to play wide left

You watched Newcastle under Keegan?

Have to say I looked at Wilson yesterday and hes not ready enough yet. First 20 minutes he was ok, then he was shot to pieces

[marcus50bucks]

To play 4-3-3 we need 4 players for me (MINIMUM)

Leftback, holding player, playmaker/dynamo/box to box player and a wide attacking player

To play 4-4-2 we need 5 players (two wingers, holding player and a box to box midfielder and a leftback) and this will almost certainly mean selling Gerrard AND Meireles because they cant play those central positions for me

To play 3-5-2 we'd need at least another one (possibly two) centrehalves one comfortable on the ball, left wingback (might get away with Johnson but we'd need a back up) a holding midfielder & a playmaker

4-3-3 makes the most sense to me

Good post.

For argument sake say we bought four players to play a 433, where would Gerrard fit into that? I magine the wide player you said we needed would play on the left, with Suarez on the right and Carroll right up top. You then have your holding midfielder and a box-to-box playmaker. Would Gerrard be the other cm? Still would have the problem of both him and the playmaker vacating the space, no? Personally I think 4-2-3-1 is the one to go with next season.

[Lecter]

So why did Gerrard play then if he isn't fit. Then we are back with the point that you simply can't bench him even if it hurt the team and tactics.

Meireles is the best option in that position at the moment and that means that Gerrard should be benched. He shouldn't walk straight back into the team and by that way force the manager to change tactic to suit him.

Right now it looks like KK thinks that Gerrard is bigger than the club and that he will play no matter what, even if it make other players worse.

If KK can't solve the Gerrard problem then he isn't the right manager for us. It is simply his biggest problem.

Right now Meireles should play because he deserves it and Gerrard should wait for his chance and until he is fit again but as I said, Gerrard is Gerrard and you simply don't drop him.

Bearing in mind the players we currently have available who would you have played instead?

Poulsen
Spearing (only just coming back from injury himself)
Pacheco
Joe Cole

I think the problem is personnel

There is not one system 4-4-2, 3-5-2, 4-3-3 where we have the ideal midfield

We dont have a good enough dedicated holding player we are making do with Lucas
We dont have a playmaker/dynamo/box to box player we are making do with Gerrard and its clear his defensive discipline is lacking

The only position we are healthy in is the attacking central midfield position where we have Raul & Gerrard

In an ideal world Gerrard would have got a cameo yesterday because the squad would have been good enough elsewhere

The same goes for Kelly at rightback in an ideal world we wouldnt have been rushing him back only to get injured again and exactly the same goes for Agger, Carroll and even Cole

The longer you take regarding care for injuries the less likelihood you have to pick up knocks and others strains

However whats pretty obvious to me is without those players (or ones of similar quality) then we have zero chance of winning games because the back up ones are VERY poor. So we really have to rush players back and that leads to the viscious cycle of players getting injured again or not being match fit

[Lecter]

Good post.

For argument sake say we bought four players to play a 433, where would Gerrard fit into that? I magine the wide player you said we needed would play on the left, with Suarez on the right and Carroll right up top. You then have your holding midfielder and a box-to-box playmaker. Would Gerrard be the other cm? Still would have the problem of both him and the playmaker vacating the space, no? Personally I think 4-2-3-1 is the one to go with next season.

Well currently we play Meireles as one of the 3 midfielders (whether thats 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 it doesnt matter)

He plays the most further forward and has less responsibility regarding defensive discipline

That for me is where Gerrard would have to play (or that should be the long term goal for me)

So its a case of playing Meireles OR Gerrard for me

[marcus50bucks]

Well currently we play Meireles as one of the 3 midfielders (whether thats 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 it doesnt matter)

He plays the most further forward and has less responsibility regarding defensive discipline

That for me is where Gerrard would have to play

So its a case of playing Meireles OR Gerrard for me

I think we need an out and out attacking player to play the wide left position - someone with lightning pace, ability to beat a man and put crosses in and attack the box - Gerrard to me would again be a make-do player for that position and whilst hes quality I think we could do better than him for that position

I agree with all of this but you've still not really answered my question in terms of how you would like to see us line up with four new players in 4-3-3. How would it look on paper with Gerrard in the team?

[Exiled_red]

Well currently we play Meireles as one of the 3 midfielders (whether thats 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 it doesnt matter)

He plays the most further forward and has less responsibility regarding defensive discipline

That for me is where Gerrard would have to play (or that should be the long term goal for me)

So its a case of playing Meireles OR Gerrard for me

Gerrard for me, he has a more complete all round game. Meireles won alot of fans with his goals in the past few weeks; but aside from those moments of brilliance he IMO doesn't seem to offer enough in other areas, whether he still needs time to settle in and get used to the Premiership before he shows this I don't know.