An Epic Swindle by Brian Reade

[RedReet]

My only question to those who thought that the feelings of fans were held so sacred by Gillett and Hicks, that they only sacked Benitez because they thought they were doing what (some) fans wanted, why then did they completely ignore ALL of the wishes of the fans throughout ALL of the rest of their ownership?

Those surely arent the actions of men who wanted to do what made the fans happy?

They weren't there to keep the fans happy, they were there to keep the fans at bay while they made themselves happy. Sacking Rafa at the wrong time wouldn't have kept the fans at bay and would have give birth to more 'internet terrorists'. They also didn't need the fans approval to pull the trigger, they just had to make sure that once they did he would have as little backing as possible looking revenge so to speak.

[Neil Young]

I dont know why i'm actually bothering to reply because you're coming across in a manner which makes me not think you're worth the effort, which isnt something i often think where you're concerned....but i'll give the benefit of the doubt, because you're normally more respectful.

Some fans turning against Rafa made the sacking easier, of course it did. But the simple viewpoint i am expressing is that, if/when G&H reached the point where they'd decided Benitez had to go, even if the manager had 100% support from the fans, they would have still made the same decision, because they didnt really hold the supporters feelings in such a high regard.

If you disagree with this, that's fine. If you think G&H cared about the fans' wishes and cared about how the fans felts, then no problem. I dont think they did, but if you did, then each to their own.

That's exactly the point I've been making. I'm glad we agree.

It's not black and white as to suggest they entirely cared about the fans feelings on things, or they completely didnt.

They cared, only as far as maintaining ticket sales/revenues was concerned. They didnt care to the point where, if they felt attendances would be maintained and if they'd still be generating revenues, they would change their decision on something based on the fans' viewpoint.

Your point about PR campaigns is right but as i've said, it's not that black and white. If it was, and if they really did care a great deal how the fans felt, how does anyone try to explain their actions for pretty much 90% of their ownership (if not all of it) which led to Liverpool fans, virtually to a man, detesting them and everything about them?

I never said they entirely cared about what the fans thought. If they cared at all (as we agree they did), then it was merely so that it would make their lives easier (and more profitable). They wanted the fans not to give them too rough a ride so they were able to do what they liked. It's as though the fans, what's the word, ah yes, enabled them to do what they wanted to do.

Really, Craig, you've raised all sorts of straw men here. I never suggested H&G cared about the fans or anything like that. I never said it was black and white, beyond the idea that some fans' failure to support Benitez made it easier for the owners (and their hatchet man, Purslow) to sack him. I never said they couldn't have done it without fan support if they wanted to.

But they ran a PR campaign with only one aim - to detach the fan base from Benitez. And they did it because it was better for them to do it that way than risk the fans' wrath. And it worked.

And the result wasn't Mourinho or Dalglish. It was, of course, General Accident.

Seriously, it is quite straightforward - I'm not really having a go at you. But it would help if you didn't misrepresent my views, deliberately or, as I prefer to believe, unintentionally.

[Craig_H]

I don't necessarily agree with Neil's rather extreme view on those who wanted Rafa sacked, but I don't think you're fairly representing his stance there. He's not said they only sacked Rafa because the fans wanted it, he's suggested that those who wanted Rafa out acted as enablers for them.

Yes, i can see what he's saying, but my point is merely that i dont think G&H really NEEDED 'enablers' to any great degree. Gillett was pretty much a non-entity mind you, because he just wanted out, and it seems Hicks was ruling things. And based on all of the (numerous) examples of Hicks being an arrogant, greedy, selfish cunt of the highest order who cared only for himself and his bank balance, lead me to believe that if he had his eyes set on doing something, he'd do it - with or without fan support. If that makes sense?

I dont dispute that there was a 'public image' which he had that was obviously being dragged through the **** but as i've said, he struck me as someone who would just do what he wanted, even if the fans hated it - as he proved with all manner of examples. That some of the fans wanted Rafa out too, IMO, was merely a convenient coincidence which, whilst making things a little easier, didnt have a significant impact on the decision to sack Rafa.

If i could ask you - if you were to put it down as a percentage - what percentage of significance do you think it would've had in the decision?

[Craig_H]

That's exactly the point I've been making. I'm glad we agree.


I never said they entirely cared about what the fans thought. If they cared at all (as we agree they did), then it was merely so that it would make their lives easier (and more profitable). They wanted the fans not to give them too rough a ride so they were able to do what they liked. It's as though the fans, what's the word, ah yes, enabled them to do what they wanted to do.

Really, Craig, you've raised all sorts of straw men here. I never suggested H&G cared about the fans or anything like that. I never said it was black and white, beyond the idea that some fans' failure to support Benitez made it easier for the owners (and their hatchet man, Purslow) to sack him. I never said they couldn't have done it without fan support if they wanted to.

But they ran a PR campaign with only one aim - to detach the fan base from Benitez. And they did it because it was better for them to do it that way than risk the fans' wrath. And it worked.

And the result wasn't Mourinho or Dalglish. It was, of course, General Accident.

Seriously, it is quite straightforward - I'm not really having a go at you. But it would help if you didn't misrepresent my views, deliberately or, as I prefer to believe, unintentionally.

No desire or intention to misrepresent you. Nor indeed to laugh at you in repost to the way you did at me

But this stems back to the implication you made, that fans who thought Rafa needed to go, were in some way the catalyst to us getting Hodgson, or indeed that those people were somehow to blame.

Again, i would stress that even wanting Rafa out as some did, was not equivalent to then wanting Roy Hodgson as the manager of LFC. You didnt say it was, but as i've mentioned, the implied 'blame' thing was there, and IMO, incorrectly so.

[CJ]

glad to see that on his return that craig is being in no way argumentative

[pezzzer]

some fans were DESPERATE to see him leave tbf

[Red_Polo]

glad to see that on his return that craig is being in no way argumentative

**** stirrer

[CJ]

**** stirrer

i would love to disagree

but i cant

[Craig_H]

**** stirrer

It's merely a debate, without abuse, ill-feeling, trouble or malice. But there's always a particular agenda at work.

[RedReet]

I never said they entirely cared about what the fans thought. If they cared at all (as we agree they did), then it was merely so that it would make their lives easier (and more profitable). They wanted the fans not to give them too rough a ride so they were able to do what they liked. It's as though the fans, what's the word, ah yes, enabled them to do what they wanted to do.

Really, Craig, you've raised all sorts of straw men here. I never suggested H&G cared about the fans or anything like that. I never said it was black and white, beyond the idea that some fans' failure to support Benitez made it easier for the owners (and their hatchet man, Purslow) to sack him. I never said they couldn't have done it without fan support if they wanted to.

But they ran a PR campaign with only one aim - to detach the fan base from Benitez. And they did it because it was better for them to do it that way than risk the fans' wrath. And it worked.

And the result wasn't Mourinho or Dalglish. It was, of course, General Accident.

Seriously, it is quite straightforward - I'm not really having a go at you. But it would help if you didn't misrepresent my views, deliberately or, as I prefer to believe, unintentionally.

I was trying to say that, but having spent so long replying to a previous post I had to delete it as the points were already covered by the time I was ready to submit.

Instead I settled for a wee 3 liner with shootings and revenge in the plot.

[Red_Polo]

It's merely a debate, without abuse, ill-feeling, trouble or malice. But there's always a particular agenda at work.

In fairness, reading through it, it's more a flurry of 'shoot from the hip' ****e from two obviously increasingly irritated people

[CJ]

glad to see that on his return that craig still loves to debate

[Craig_H]

In fairness, reading through it, it's more a flurry of 'shoot from the hip' ****e from two obviously increasingly irritated people

I thought it was a fairly moderate debate between owners of slightly differing viewpoints

I cant speak for Neil, but i'm 'irritated' by the debate, like most things on here, i have a reaction to what's been said and then it remains on my reply post, rather than in my mind.

[Neil Young]

I thought it was a fairly moderate debate between owners of slightly differing viewpoints

I cant speak for Neil, but i'm 'irritated' by the debate, like most things on here, i have a reaction to what's been said and then it remains on my reply post, rather than in my mind.

Ah, you can speak for me though, Craig. We've already established that to you my mind is like an open book. Your understanding is both intuitive and profound.

Ah f*ck it, let's shake hands and forget this ****e.

Polo, I wasn't irritated at all. I was more amused than anything.

Having said that, I don't know who these "owners of slightly differing viewpoints" are but I don't have an owner. I am a free dog.

[Red_Polo]

There's a voice
Keeps on callin' me

Down the road
That's where I'll always be...