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    Get The Player vs Do "Good Business"

    One of my favorite aspects of silly season is the pride and prejudice demonstrated around transfer prices. Obviously, managing resources is important and there is always a relationship between the cost of a single player and the overall budget for transfers, but it makes me laugh to no end listening to people arguing over the cost (and perceived value) of players.

    People taking Liverpool to task for paying £35 for Andy Carroll or £13-£16 million for Henderson, as if we'd been "ripped off" on the price and how "crazy" we are to pay to get the player; endlessly amusing. It's like a group of old women beaming with pride as they argue over who got the best price on a tin of biscuits.

    Let's face facts; there is no statement of how much money is actually available, we're in GREAT hands with FSG and Kenny Dalglish, I trust them to allocate resources and manage priorities, and it is crucial that they get the players they want and need to challenge for trophies.

    Yes, the success and failure of a club is tied to its players, yes the players in and out are defined by the transfer market, and yes, the amount of money you spend in the market can be relatively correlated to Top 4 success (barring Arsenal), but in the end, its all billionaires spending millions to make their investments earn money and compete.

    Why so much pride in ripping other clubs off or not being taken to the cleaners? OK, it is part of the fun to point to our rivals' failures in the market (Anderson) and to trumpet our successes (buying Suarez, selling Torres), but honestly price debates are hilarious. Henderson scores or sets up a match winning goal in one game? Worth every penny. Misses a sitter that would have won the match? **** and not worth the price. Supporters are governed by emotion; I hope our owners and manager are driven by strategy.

    It's not like we have any control; its up to Kenny and FSG. No one gives a **** how much "you would pay," because you don't have all the required information. Wouldn't we all rather get the players we want and let FSG worry about the price than have FSG and Kenny use the supporter's logic about cost ("£16 million! That's a **** load of money! he's not worth it!") and miss out on our targets. We've done that for years, its time to buy what we need and push on for 19!

    One last thing: FSG are used to dealing in the baseball market where there are no (or rarely any) transfer fees but where top players make an insane amount of money. Looking at the wage bill at Liverpool AND the transfer costs, it all seems reasonable to American eyes. This is the same group that spent $51 million dollars to TALK to Daisuke Matsuzaka; not sign him, not pay him-- the rights to negotiate with the player were $51 million, who they then signed for $52 million over six years. So-- $103 million US for what was a slightly above average pitcher for a six year deal.

    £16 million on Jordan Henderson is piss in the bucket.
    "Our legacy begets an excellence that surpasses the particulars of who produces it." -- David Carr

    #2


    but yet some fans will never seem to grasp this reasoning.
    People who think there's no good way to die have obviously never heard the phrase 'Drug-fuelled-sex-heart-attack'.

    Comment


      #3
      Er, because if we spend £50m on someone ****, we'll have less chance of buying someone aces. Just because people are wealthy doesn't mean they'd plough good money after bad into the team.
      Trey Nyoni: countdown to stardom- 2 years 1year 0.5 years

      Comment


        #4
        "Its not about the long ball or the short ball, its about the right ball." Bob Paisley

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by BrooklynRed View Post
          One of my favorite aspects of silly season is the pride and prejudice demonstrated around transfer prices. Obviously, managing resources is important and there is always a relationship between the cost of a single player and the overall budget for transfers, but it makes me laugh to no end listening to people arguing over the cost (and perceived value) of players.

          People taking Liverpool to task for paying £35 for Andy Carroll or £13-£16 million for Henderson, as if we'd been "ripped off" on the price and how "crazy" we are to pay to get the player; endlessly amusing. It's like a group of old women beaming with pride as they argue over who got the best price on a tin of biscuits.

          Let's face facts; there is no statement of how much money is actually available, we're in GREAT hands with FSG and Kenny Dalglish, I trust them to allocate resources and manage priorities, and it is crucial that they get the players they want and need to challenge for trophies.

          Yes, the success and failure of a club is tied to its players, yes the players in and out are defined by the transfer market, and yes, the amount of money you spend in the market can be relatively correlated to Top 4 success (barring Arsenal), but in the end, its all billionaires spending millions to make their investments earn money and compete.

          Why so much pride in ripping other clubs off or not being taken to the cleaners? OK, it is part of the fun to point to our rivals' failures in the market (Anderson) and to trumpet our successes (buying Suarez, selling Torres), but honestly price debates are hilarious. Henderson scores or sets up a match winning goal in one game? Worth every penny. Misses a sitter that would have won the match? **** and not worth the price. Supporters are governed by emotion; I hope our owners and manager are driven by strategy.

          It's not like we have any control; its up to Kenny and FSG. No one gives a **** how much "you would pay," because you don't have all the required information. Wouldn't we all rather get the players we want and let FSG worry about the price than have FSG and Kenny use the supporter's logic about cost ("£16 million! That's a **** load of money! he's not worth it!") and miss out on our targets. We've done that for years, its time to buy what we need and push on for 19!

          One last thing: FSG are used to dealing in the baseball market where there are no (or rarely any) transfer fees but where top players make an insane amount of money. Looking at the wage bill at Liverpool AND the transfer costs, it all seems reasonable to American eyes. This is the same group that spent $51 million dollars to TALK to Daisuke Matsuzaka; not sign him, not pay him-- the rights to negotiate with the player were $51 million, who they then signed for $52 million over six years. So-- $103 million US for what was a slightly above average pitcher for a six year deal.

          £16 million on Jordan Henderson is piss in the bucket.
          I know where you’re coming from, but similar points can be made about any LFC discussion. We can’t control tactics, team selection or players performance, but we’ll all still give our opinions and discuss. That’s the whole point of sites like this and with no actual football to discuss, transfers (including fees) will obviously be the main talking point.
          If we are all only happy when we are really winning in the end, when your race finishes, what life would that be?

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by Kenneth View Post
            Er, because if we spend £50m on someone ****, we'll have less chance of buying someone aces. Just because people are wealthy doesn't mean they'd plough good money after bad into the team.
            This is the extreme example; what's the difference to you if we spend £20 million or £13 cash + Ngog for Henderson? £35 million on Carroll? I think it is fair to for supporters to say "he is ****! I can't believe we are buying him! I don't rate him"-- that to me is at least reasonable-- you're basing your opinion on the player's past performances and how they might fit in with us. But "he's good, but £16 million?" is a stupid argument, based on no real information about the club's ability to spend, our target list and our manager's ACTUAL priorities, and our LONG TERM strategy.

            Look at Phil Jones-- rumor has it that Man U wanted to wait for another season to buy him, but because we were in, they had to move and pay a certain price to outbid us. Good business or bad? we don't know how he'll pan out at United, but it is good business because it fit into their plans and they executed their long term strategy. Same with us and Suarez, Carroll and Henderson; we got the men we wanted, Kenny and Comolli are nailing down the players they want. Good business no matter the cost; we're competing to sign these people and we are winning.
            "Our legacy begets an excellence that surpasses the particulars of who produces it." -- David Carr

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by RedReet View Post
              I know where you’re coming from, but similar points can be made about any LFC discussion. We can’t control tactics, team selection or players performance, but we’ll all still give our opinions and discuss. That’s the whole point of sites like this and with no actual football to discuss, transfers (including fees) will obviously be the main talking point.
              that's 1/2 of a sentence you quoted, so yes, I agree with you; no one has more fun than I do debating what we should do; not meant to stifle debate. We can all rate players etc. But I just don't get the way people are framing the discussion as if the money were coming out of their own wallets. We're signing our targets for the first time in YEARS... let's talk about who the targets should be and, ok, our personal valuations, but running down the club for the price seems crazy to me. I'd rather win in the market and get our targets than look good in the eyes of other supporters for the price.
              "Our legacy begets an excellence that surpasses the particulars of who produces it." -- David Carr

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by BrooklynRed View Post
                that's 1/2 of a sentence you quoted, so yes, I agree with you; no one has more fun than I do debating what we should do; not meant to stifle debate. We can all rate players etc. But I just don't get the way people are framing the discussion as if the money were coming out of their own wallets. We're signing our targets for the first time in YEARS... let's talk about who the targets should be and, ok, our personal valuations, but running down the club for the price seems crazy to me. I'd rather win in the market and get our targets than look good in the eyes of other supporters for the price.
                I highlighted that point then changed what I was going to say and forgot to remove the bold. I agree that there are much more interesting topics to be discussed and some of the comments have been a bit ridiculous, but is it really any more absurd that people arguing the merits of players they have never/rarely watched play or complaining about performances in matches they haven't even watched?

                It's the internet and people will always talk crap and pretend to be experts in subjects they know nothing about, and I too have contributed my own fair share of crap.
                If we are all only happy when we are really winning in the end, when your race finishes, what life would that be?

                Comment


                  #9
                  My concern is that we are spending a lot of money on average players that will not take us forward.
                  www.Liverpoolbaymlt.org

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                  Comment


                    #10
                    I’m hardly blown away by our list of targets either, but as I don’t know too much about these superstars everyone else is suggesting we buy, I won’t worry too much about it. I have to trust our scouting department and look forward to replacing the deadwood with any decent sort of player.
                    If we are all only happy when we are really winning in the end, when your race finishes, what life would that be?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BrooklynRed View Post
                      One of my favorite aspects of silly season is the pride and prejudice demonstrated around transfer prices. Obviously, managing resources is important and there is always a relationship between the cost of a single player and the overall budget for transfers, but it makes me laugh to no end listening to people arguing over the cost (and perceived value) of players.

                      People taking Liverpool to task for paying £35 for Andy Carroll or £13-£16 million for Henderson, as if we'd been "ripped off" on the price and how "crazy" we are to pay to get the player; endlessly amusing. It's like a group of old women beaming with pride as they argue over who got the best price on a tin of biscuits.

                      Let's face facts; there is no statement of how much money is actually available, we're in GREAT hands with FSG and Kenny Dalglish, I trust them to allocate resources and manage priorities, and it is crucial that they get the players they want and need to challenge for trophies.

                      Yes, the success and failure of a club is tied to its players, yes the players in and out are defined by the transfer market, and yes, the amount of money you spend in the market can be relatively correlated to Top 4 success (barring Arsenal), but in the end, its all billionaires spending millions to make their investments earn money and compete.

                      Why so much pride in ripping other clubs off or not being taken to the cleaners? OK, it is part of the fun to point to our rivals' failures in the market (Anderson) and to trumpet our successes (buying Suarez, selling Torres), but honestly price debates are hilarious. Henderson scores or sets up a match winning goal in one game? Worth every penny. Misses a sitter that would have won the match? **** and not worth the price. Supporters are governed by emotion; I hope our owners and manager are driven by strategy.

                      It's not like we have any control; its up to Kenny and FSG. No one gives a **** how much "you would pay," because you don't have all the required information. Wouldn't we all rather get the players we want and let FSG worry about the price than have FSG and Kenny use the supporter's logic about cost ("£16 million! That's a **** load of money! he's not worth it!") and miss out on our targets. We've done that for years, its time to buy what we need and push on for 19!

                      One last thing: FSG are used to dealing in the baseball market where there are no (or rarely any) transfer fees but where top players make an insane amount of money. Looking at the wage bill at Liverpool AND the transfer costs, it all seems reasonable to American eyes. This is the same group that spent $51 million dollars to TALK to Daisuke Matsuzaka; not sign him, not pay him-- the rights to negotiate with the player were $51 million, who they then signed for $52 million over six years. So-- $103 million US for what was a slightly above average pitcher for a six year deal.

                      £16 million on Jordan Henderson is piss in the bucket.
                      I understand what your saying but I think your missing the point. Its not about whether we can afford £16m its whether the player your buying for that amount is worth it.

                      People are quite entitled to say.. "**** thats a lot of money for a youngster" When you compare the fact you could get Mata for similar or slightly more its just makes people wonder if the price youve paid is worth it.

                      Obviously its all a matter of waiting and seeing how the players turn out, Mata could flop here for all we know.

                      But I for one would like to say damn £20m for Henderson is crazy money! Very inflated price. But the point is, thats what we have to spend to get the players we want.

                      It all boils down to FIFA/UEFA needing to pull their thumb out their ass and introduce wage caps and transfer caps. **** the financial fair play bull****.
                      YNWA

                      Comment


                        #12
                        so Brooklyn i assume that if we spent £55m each on adam or downing you would make the same point?

                        or what if we had bought phil jones for 80m and that was our only summer signing?

                        when you go to the supermarket do do you spend $5 on a can of beans just because you can and the fact you have $20 in your pocket means that it doesnt matter?

                        what i do think is that you pay a premium for English/british players. Gordon at sunderland is an example of where it hasnt been worth it.

                        ferdinand or rooney for the mancs has been worth it.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by CJ View Post
                          so Brooklyn i assume that if we spent £55m each on adam or downing you would make the same point?

                          or what if we had bought phil jones for 80m and that was our only summer signing?

                          when you go to the supermarket do do you spend $5 on a can of beans just because you can and the fact you have $20 in your pocket means that it doesnt matter?

                          what i do think is that you pay a premium for English/british players. Gordon at sunderland is an example of where it hasnt been worth it.

                          ferdinand or rooney for the mancs has been worth it.
                          again, this is all fantasy realm stuff. let's use reality as an example?

                          Andy Carroll.
                          Should we have paid £35 million?
                          I say yes, because that was what was required to get our target. The main fear most seem to have is that Newcastle took advantage of us and got more money than Carroll was "worth"-- but like any "market" the value is determined by market forces. A share of stock is worth what someone is willing to pay for it; so too a player. On top of it, we had Torres money and it has not stopped us getting Henderson, we got Suarez too and we were in for £16m for Jones, but lost out because he wanted to go to United. So, I just don't see the issue.

                          So, should we or should we have not paid £35m for the player Kenny wanted? If we were only willing to offer, say, £22 million and we walked away from the player, would that have been a better deal?
                          "Our legacy begets an excellence that surpasses the particulars of who produces it." -- David Carr

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I think the key thing here is that as long as what we spend on any given player this summer doesn't adversely affect our other summer signings - I am sure each player we are in for this summer has been well scouted and a maximum transfer value assigned to him i.e. we'll go up to a certain value before it stops us signing someone else. In terms of the Carroll signing, for me this was a slightly special case as in we were looking to swap Torres for Carrol and leave ourselves in profit from the deal, we did this.

                            Basically as long as Kenny and the club are happy with what we've spent on a player I don't see the problem.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by rcasemore View Post
                              Basically as long as Kenny and the club are happy with what we've spent on a player I don't see the problem.
                              My point exactly... agree!
                              "Our legacy begets an excellence that surpasses the particulars of who produces it." -- David Carr

                              Comment

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