Our system and teamwork

[el matador]

I just don't think Adam is good enough to be such a regular starter.

for me this is probably whats wrong with the team at the moment.

when stevie plays centrally (which i dont agree with either) charlie adam cant be his partner because they're too similar. Its similar to the situation we had when alonso and gerrard played together for a short while and it soon became apparent that the combination just didnt work defensively.

interestingly it was gerrard who made way and not alonso.

[BigChief]

Harsh, very harsh. I think Rafa was doing the same in his first season. He didn't settle for 4-2-3-1 until his 3rd year I think.

This is why its tough being a Liverpool fan. We show our respect and support (honestly) for managers in the first few years but if they're not quite up to it then its already too late.

Maybe like a free press in a democratic country we should continue to question our leaders, as good as they may be, to guard against complacency or simply spot problems earlier. Without the need for tabloid style headlines.

[MrMichael]

Harsh, very harsh. I think Rafa was doing the same in his first season. He didn't settle for 4-2-3-1 until his 3rd year I think. It's normal that we've been a bit inconsistent. What did you all expect, us fighting it out with Chelsea and Utd already? Preposterous.

It'll be us vs Arsenal and Spurs for that 4th place. It was always going to be tough.

[cream]

The most important thing is the club...

[BootRoom]

I think with the players we have the system we used to play under Rafa is probably the best suited to the players we have at the moment. On paper I'd be tempted to go with:

------------Reina---------------

Johnson Carragher Agger Enrique

--------Lucas---Gerrard---------

Kuyt---------Suarez------Bellamy

-------------Carroll--------------

Realistically there are a couple of problems with this, mainly it requires alot of Carroll, who so far in his time here hasn't shown himself capable of playing such a role, and it requires Gerrard to play the 'Alonso role'.

The other alternative would be to play Gerrard on the right in Kuyt's place and Adam replacing Gerrard in the centre of midfield. The advantage being Gerrard would get forward more (still not in his ideal position though), the disadvantage being IMO Gerrard would be better in central midfield than Adam.

That is a recipe for a long ball fest. What's wrong with pushing further up field and pressing the opposition?

What do you suggest we need to do in order not to have to revert to a "Rafa system"? Give an indication of the players we need to sign, and how that changes things.

[Kenneth]

Fundamentally, unless Suarez plays wide, I don't see how he and Gerrard can play in the same side effectively. Their best positions are too similar.

[The Birdman]

To be perfectly honest im baffled by a number of Kenny's decisions.
Maxi hardly featuring, even from off the bench
Skrtel and Carra being prefered to a fully fit Agger
Carroll has been messed around, not played, then played, done well, scored in the derby then only 10 minutes in the next 2 games.
Persisting with Henderson early season when most others thought Kuyt should have
played, now its the opposite.
Real reluctance to make positive substitutions.

Worst thing for me though is at home we sometimes don't have a single player in the box, why pay 20mill for a winger in Downing and then set a team up so we have no-one in the box to cross to.

As much as i hate Spurs and 'Arry at least they have a proper go

[Exiled_red]

Fundamentally, unless Suarez plays wide, I don't see how he and Gerrard can play in the same side effectively. Their best positions are too similar.

If we're planning to build a team around one player it should be Suarez rather than Gerrard IMO. That being the case I'd play Gerrard wide on the right and Suarez off the target man, where he has more freedom, and can do more damage.

[Exiled_red]

That is a recipe for a long ball fest. What's wrong with pushing further up field and pressing the opposition?

What do you suggest we need to do in order not to have to revert to a "Rafa system"? Give an indication of the players we need to sign, and how that changes things.

There's nothing with pushing further up the field, the problem being the lack of pace at the back if we play a high defensive line. I don't see why that team is a recipe for a long ball fest.

If by a "Rafa system" you mean a 4-2-3-1 formation I think that is the system that would suit our current crop of players well. I think to get away from that we'd need different central midfield players and a right sided player at least. The central midfielder thing might seem odd but I don't think we have a combination of central midfielders that would be effective in a 4-4-2 system.

[Mattshark]

This is why its tough being a Liverpool fan. We show our respect and support (honestly) for managers in the first few years but if they're not quite up to it then its already too late.

Maybe like a free press in a democratic country we should continue to question our leaders, as good as they may be, to guard against complacency or simply spot problems earlier. Without the need for tabloid style headlines.

Not really, there is support while there is clear improvement, Hodgeson wasn't supported because there was rapid decline pretty much from the outset.

[BootRoom]

There's nothing with pushing further up the field, the problem being the lack of pace at the back if we play a high defensive line. I don't see why that team is a recipe for a long ball fest.

If by a "Rafa system" you mean a 4-2-3-1 formation I think that is the system that would suit our current crop of players well. I think to get away from that we'd need different central midfield players and a right sided player at least. The central midfielder thing might seem odd but I don't think we have a combination of central midfielders that would be effective in a 4-4-2 system.

I was trying to fathom why you had dropped Skrtel in favour of Carragher, seeing as Skrtel has been the better CB. The only explaination I could come up with was to use the old 'he's better when we're up against it, backs against the wall' situation, a sitaution we often find ourselves in when we play a deep defensive system that encourages the opposition to attack us. And exactly in that setup there will be a huge temptation to lauch the ball forward to the big number 9.

Please explain how Carroll would be effective in a system that has a deep defensive line. If the defensive line is deep, then the other components (midfield and attack) of the team will be also be deep, otherwise we'll be giving up space to the opposition between components. It may have escaped your attention, but Andy Carroll is not a fast player, so either he'll be ineffective in trying to catch up to the attack when we break, or isolated up front (or the attack as a whole could be isolated).

No matter what system we play, if we sit deep we are ceding space to the opposition, making the game easier for them and harder for us. We could play a high line with Skrtel and Agger, yet you've chosen personnel that neccesitates we sit deep.

[Exiled_red]

I was trying to fathom why you had dropped Skrtel in favour of Carragher, seeing as Skrtel has been the better CB. The only explaination I could come up with was to use the old 'he's better when we're up against it, backs against the wall' situation, a sitaution we often find ourselves in when we play a deep defensive system that encourages the opposition to attack us. And exactly in that setup there will be a huge temptation to lauch the ball forward to the big number 9.

Please explain how Carroll would be effective in a system that has a deep defensive line. If the defensive line is deep, then the other components (midfield and attack) of the team will be also be deep, otherwise we'll be giving up space to the opposition between components. It may have escaped your attention, but Andy Carroll is not a fast player, so either he'll be ineffective in trying to catch up to the attack when we break, or isolated up front (or the attack as a whole could be isolated).

No matter what system we play, if we sit deep we are ceding space to the opposition, making the game easier for them and harder for us. We could play a high line with Skrtel and Agger, yet you've chosen personnel that neccesitates we sit deep.

Just because I don't see Carragher being dropped...

Carroll isn't that slow, he's not particularly quick admittedly, but he's not overly slow either, he only needs to be able to get into the box for the crosses which he'd be capable of doing, if Suarez is close to he he can flick things on for Suarez to use his pace. We shouldn't be looking to hoof long balls up to him if he's isolated, the time to play long balls up to him is when there are people around him to pick up the knock downs but personally I'd prefer us not to do that too often.

[BootRoom]

Just because I don't see Carragher being dropped...

Carroll isn't that slow, he's not particularly quick admittedly, but he's not overly slow either, he only needs to be able to get into the box for the crosses which he'd be capable of doing, if Suarez is close to he he can flick things on for Suarez to use his pace. We shouldn't be looking to hoof long balls up to him if he's isolated, the time to play long balls up to him is when there are people around him to pick up the knock downs but personally I'd prefer us not to do that too often.

Do you see us reverting to a "Rafa system"?

If we play deep we will either be a counter attacking team, or leave gaps for the opposition to occupy. Carroll isn't fast enough to be the centre-forward of a counter attacking team. If he's isolated there will be nobody to flick the ball to, and he hasn't got the skill to be a threat on his own; he hasn't even shown that he can consistently hold the ball up.

Saying that we shouldn't hoof balls up to him if he is on his own won't stop balls being hoofed up to him if he's own his own.

[Exiled_red]

Do you see us reverting to a "Rafa system"?

If we play deep we will either be a counter attacking team, or leave gaps for the opposition to occupy. Carroll isn't fast enough to be the centre-forward of a counter attacking team. If he's isolated there will be nobody to flick the ball to, and he hasn't got the skill to be a threat on his own; he hasn't even shown that he can consistently hold the ball up.

Saying that we shouldn't hoof balls up to him if he is on his own won't stop balls being hoofed up to him if he's own his own.

I don't know, I think we need to find a system that works, long term that system probably wouldn't include Carragher because of his age, so I'd like to see us play a higher defensive line with a couple of centre backs with a decent amount of pace.

I think that the players we have suit a 4-2-3-1 type system, we certainly don't IMO have the players to play a 4-4-2. I also don't really think we have enough pace to play effectively as a counter attacking side. I'd prefer us to have a more possession based system, who press high up the field. Because the players we have in the centre of midfield are definately much better with the ball than without it. I think a system in which we press high up the field would suit the players more than what we seem to be doing at the moment.

[BootRoom]

I don't know, I think we need to find a system that works, long term that system probably wouldn't include Carragher because of his age, so I'd like to see us play a higher defensive line with a couple of centre backs with a decent amount of pace.

I think that the players we have suit a 4-2-3-1 type system, we certainly don't IMO have the players to play a 4-4-2. I also don't really think we have enough pace to play effectively as a counter attacking side. I'd prefer us to have a more possession based system, who press high up the field. Because the players we have in the centre of midfield are definately much better with the ball than without it. I think a system in which we press high up the field would suit the players more than what we seem to be doing at the moment.

You're not making much sense because you are mixing in what you want to see with what you think will happen and I find it confusing.

Long term, we shouldn't be adapting the system to fit the players, we should be buying players to fit the system.