Udinese post match thread

[dww]

I think you're both right.

Downing had a better game than usual, got through a lot of work, including at least twice covering well for Johnson, made a goal, set up other chances, got a shot on target, kept the ball well and kept it moving, should have been through on goal when hauled back... And he also was incredibly frustrating that he seems to turn back constantly, can run fast yet somehow can't beat a man for pace (he so often seems to get a foot ahead, not a yard, meaning the defender can always get the challenge in), doesn't seem to try that much, etc.

What got me last night at the game though was the incredible bias of some fans around us. Yes, he's frustrating and we overpaid. But he was right to hold on to the ball instead of trying to beat the whole defence when we broke with him in possession but only two teammates with him and six Udinese defenders back. And it certainly wasn't his fault when Shelvey hit the ball behind him and it went out for a throw-in. In both cases I heard someone (different people) say, "****ing hell, Downing, useless."

Overall, result apart, it was enjoyable and entertaining - the first time in a very long time I've been able to say that when actually at the game. I think the defending will get better, and it won't just be because of Lucas' return, although that must help. The trouble is that the system and style makes defending very complex. It's fluid and dynamic rather than relying primarily on systems and structure and shape. At the moment when we lose the ball in the wrong place or at the wrong time there are just too many holes, and the other team finds one of these every so often, and a goal or near-miss results.

Although that doesn't explain the header in the half - good to see such a fantastic save from Reina. He deserved better than the poor defending in front of him for all three goals.

It's been too long since I went to Anfield and it was just great to be back there - YNWA reminded me just how amazing a club it is.

By the way, how long has there been that little collection of food vans and bouncy castles behind Anfield Road?

Glad you enjoyed the game (result excepted).

What makes you believe that Rodgers will improve the defensive side of our game? Did you see anything at the game that you thought hinted at progress being made?

[Neil Young]

Glad you enjoyed the game (result excepted).

What makes you believe that Rodgers will improve the defensive side of our game? Did you see anything at the game that you thought hinted at progress being made?

No, not a thing. Sorry.

I think it will improve because it has to. If not, he will fail and end up being sacked. I agree with the point you make about there being no signs of it yet or at Swansea but it has to improve. If he doesn't find a solution then not only will he be sacked, he'll also deserve it, either for not being flexible enough, not being clever enough or both.

As I watched last night I got a clearer idea of what I meant the other day when you and dom were discussing the defending and I added my then rather misty thoughts. That's the point above about fluidity and complexity. I agree with your earlier comment about the system being problematic but I think there must be solutions to reduce the number of occasions where inevitable individual errors are exploited by the opposition. It seems to me a matter of the rest of the team knowing how to respond in the myriad different situations where someone makes an error.

It's a bit like the issue of man-man-marking. If you play man-to-man and the opposition score, is it an individual error or a problem with the system?

The problem with man-to-man is that attacking teams have worked out how to give themselves clear openings, that is by blocking off defenders, resulting in an attacker getting a free header, from which they should score. It helps though that they are in control of the ball, since it's their free kick or corner.

The difference with the individual errors here is that they can be reduced by keeping hold of the ball better. There will still be mistakes of course but fewer of them and fewer individual errors in a game means fewer holes in the defence for breaking attackers to exploit, making for fewer goals against.

And the other advantage is that because the breakdown of our play leads to a fluid and complex situation to defend, it also makes it a situation which is fluid and complex for the attack, so the opposition coach will find it harder to prepare specific tactics to capitalise on it.

At least that's how I hope it all turns out. It's still far too early to know what might happen.

Incidentally we have to distinguish between goals caused by individual errors like Johnson's and Gerrard's last night and those caused by the kind of mistake Skrtel made on Saturday. The former put pressure on the team because the system is built on possession, the latter is just a mistake that has nothing to do with the system and it can't be legislated for, they just happen.

[Buzzo]

No, not a thing. Sorry.

I think it will improve because it has to. If not, he will fail and end up being sacked. I agree with the point you make about there being no signs of it yet or at Swansea but it has to improve. If he doesn't find a solution then not only will he be sacked, he'll also deserve it, either for not being flexible enough, not being clever enough or both.

As I watched last night I got a clearer idea of what I meant the other day when you and dom were discussing the defending and I added my then rather misty thoughts. That's the point above about fluidity and complexity. I agree with your earlier comment about the system being problematic but I think there must be solutions to reduce the number of occasions where inevitable individual errors are exploited by the opposition. It seems to me a matter of the rest of the team knowing how to respond in the myriad different situations where someone makes an error.

It's a bit like the issue of man-man-marking. If you play man-to-man and the opposition score, is it an individual error or a problem with the system?

The problem with man-to-man is that attacking teams have worked out how to give themselves clear openings, that is by blocking off defenders, resulting in an attacker getting a free header, from which they should score. It helps though that they are in control of the ball, since it's their free kick or corner.

The difference with the individual errors here is that they can be reduced by keeping hold of the ball better. There will still be mistakes of course but fewer of them and fewer individual errors in a game means fewer holes in the defence for breaking attackers to exploit, making for fewer goals against.

And the other advantage is that because the breakdown of our play leads to a fluid and complex situation to defend, it also makes it a situation which is fluid and complex for the attack, so the opposition coach will find it harder to prepare specific tactics to capitalise on it.

At least that's how I hope it all turns out. It's still far too early to know what might happen.

Incidentally we have to distinguish between goals caused by individual errors like Johnson's and Gerrard's last night and those caused by the kind of mistake Skrtel made on Saturday. The former put pressure on the team because the system is built on possession, the latter is just a mistake that has nothing to do with the system and it can't be legislated for, they just happen.

Thats an excellent post and reading of the current situation. I agree 100%.
My biggest worry with Rodgers is that he will live or die by this system and I think that the amount of attention that this 'new' style of play is being given could make life difficult for us (like it is now!!!) as the season wears on.

Its going to be interesting.

[Nick77]

For me last night's game showed that Johnson can be worse than even Carra sometimes. Downing is still ****e even though he got an assist & gave Suarez an amazing pass which should've led to a goal - he didn't do much else.
Allen isn't as special as everyone is making him out to be as the midfield wasn't the same when Henderson came off (even though Henderson is nothing special at the moment) & Allen should be the one dropped when Lucas is fit again imo...

*Waits for the pillars of abuse to begin*

[dom9]

[Shaggy]

****ing hell

[Muddled]

For me last night's game showed that Johnson can be worse than even Carra sometimes. Downing is still ****e even though he got an assist & gave Suarez an amazing pass which should've led to a goal - he didn't do much else.
Allen isn't as special as everyone is making him out to be as the midfield wasn't the same when Henderson came off (even though Henderson is nothing special at the moment) & Allen should be the one dropped when Lucas is fit again imo...

*Waits for the pillars of abuse to begin*

So who are you suggesting that we *do* play in the middle of the park?

[Maxiedge]

post of the year that

I have to say, we always seem to get punished for any mistakes. We've played some clinical sides recently in Man City, Arsenal, Man U and now Udinese.

Alway.

[frank the tank]

I am loving watching LFC at the moment - that for me is a plus even before the result of the game!

Also, i think this whole season, most of the goals we have conceeded have been through individual errors. We haven't been outplayed by anyone (some pundits had a group tossing session about Arsenal at anfield but to be honest LFC were letargic in that game and we still could have had something from it if the ref did his job properly!)....

The system and style of play is such an upbeat though compared to the last couple of years....

I will be very interested to see how we integrate Lucas back into the team though to be honest......if we could play Gerrard further forward and have a 3 man midfield of Lucas, Allen and Sahin.......then that could be special to be honest...... with a front 3 of Suarez, Gerrard and Sterling..........

I think Robinson will be our No1 left back before long as well.......

[peekay]

Di Natale - what a player he is!

Unlike Rafa and Houllier, it appears Rodgers is building from the front. It is very entertaining but we should stop leaking goals. We really do need a Mascherano type player. Hopefully the return of Lucas and our defense and midfielders getting more and more comfortable with the system will address that.

[danperkins]

Unlike Rafa and Houllier, it appears Rodgers is building from the front. It is very entertaining but we should stop leaking goals. We really do need a Mascherano type player. Hopefully the return of Lucas and our defense and midfielders getting more and more comfortable with the system will address that.

[dww]

No, not a thing. Sorry.

I think it will improve because it has to. If not, he will fail and end up being sacked. I agree with the point you make about there being no signs of it yet or at Swansea but it has to improve. If he doesn't find a solution then not only will he be sacked, he'll also deserve it, either for not being flexible enough, not being clever enough or both.

As I watched last night I got a clearer idea of what I meant the other day when you and dom were discussing the defending and I added my then rather misty thoughts. That's the point above about fluidity and complexity. I agree with your earlier comment about the system being problematic but I think there must be solutions to reduce the number of occasions where inevitable individual errors are exploited by the opposition. It seems to me a matter of the rest of the team knowing how to respond in the myriad different situations where someone makes an error.

It's a bit like the issue of man-man-marking. If you play man-to-man and the opposition score, is it an individual error or a problem with the system?

The problem with man-to-man is that attacking teams have worked out how to give themselves clear openings, that is by blocking off defenders, resulting in an attacker getting a free header, from which they should score. It helps though that they are in control of the ball, since it's their free kick or corner.

The difference with the individual errors here is that they can be reduced by keeping hold of the ball better. There will still be mistakes of course but fewer of them and fewer individual errors in a game means fewer holes in the defence for breaking attackers to exploit, making for fewer goals against.

And the other advantage is that because the breakdown of our play leads to a fluid and complex situation to defend, it also makes it a situation which is fluid and complex for the attack, so the opposition coach will find it harder to prepare specific tactics to capitalise on it.

At least that's how I hope it all turns out. It's still far too early to know what might happen.

Incidentally we have to distinguish between goals caused by individual errors like Johnson's and Gerrard's last night and those caused by the kind of mistake Skrtel made on Saturday. The former put pressure on the team because the system is built on possession, the latter is just a mistake that has nothing to do with the system and it can't be legislated for, they just happen.

I agree with most of that. I think the problem is that I would imagine it would take a long time to get players used to the complexities of Rodgers system. I would (with little evidence to back up my assertion) say more than a season. The big question is or at least will be are we willing to be patient with him.

I'm not 100% convinced that Skrtel's mistake wasn't to do with the system (and I certainly think it was made more costly by our fullbacks pushing up). We see a lot of our CBs stepping 'up and out' and I think it often means that they are reaching for the ball which means that errors seem more likely to me.

[yamiedo]

I am loving watching LFC at the moment - that for me is a plus even before the result of the game!

Also, i think this whole season, most of the goals we have conceeded have been through individual errors. We haven't been outplayed by anyone (some pundits had a group tossing session about Arsenal at anfield but to be honest LFC were letargic in that game and we still could have had something from it if the ref did his job properly!)....

The system and style of play is such an upbeat though compared to the last couple of years....

I will be very interested to see how we integrate Lucas back into the team though to be honest......if we could play Gerrard further forward and have a 3 man midfield of Lucas, Allen and Sahin.......then that could be special to be honest...... with a front 3 of Suarez, Gerrard and Sterling..........

I think Robinson will be our No1 left back before long as well.......

That's a bit of a dream team right there. Assaidi battling for left wing and Suso battling for Gerrard's place. Then we have Borini as a back up striker. Shelvey and Henderson will be trying to win their place. There will be a lot of competition for places, which is good.

[Fredo]

I think Enrique and Downing will be gone and there's a chance Pepe will be shipped out as well.

[Mostar]

we scored twice and had plenty more chances. i think the three shipped goals is the issue here.

One thing I will say for Assaidi is once he has beaten a man, he threatens that player again and again

Downing for me doesnt do that, hes far too willing to pass the buck and allow someone else to take responsibility

Downings biggest problem imo is that hes chicken

Don't insult chicken.