Our formation and development

[Dirk07]

Can't remember the last time I started a thread so I thought it would be a good time to make a contribution

I have to say I’m surprised we have continued with the 5-3-2 formation, the fact that in the era of 4-2-3-1 we are putting 3 CD on the field to deal with one striker seems to be putting less technical players on the field in the wrong position to control the game confused me especially when our manager is known for valuing possession of the ball above most other aspects of the game

That said maybe we are really not playing 5 at the back, it’s really 3 at the back, which in turn you could argue has the possibility of the two of these having limited license to bring the ball forward on the sides, as we have seen Toure and Sakho bring the ball forward towards the opposition goal

I look at how we could potentially develop as a team, where we could improve, our front two are excellent, and then we have a midfield three consisting of a combination of Gerard , Lucas, Countinho, Henderson and Allen, I rate all these players either very good or good with youth and development on their side, not really easy for vast improvement here unless Kolo can convince his brother to move

So where is the easiest place to improve the team using this formation, I feel it’s the wingbacks using this formation and the importance of them to provide the attacking width and still to provide cover at the back is vital, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a major purchase in the area for a lot more money than you would expect us to pay for a full back with the left side probably the priority, Enrique for me provides a lot of assists and is very strong but I believe if we could find a good defender with excellent speed and superb stamina it could give us an a further dimension, imagine the qualities of a left sided Dani Alves here and what he could contribute to the team

Another option would be an left sided defensive player with excellent attacking ball skills, there is a player like this not far from us who seems to be available but at 28 maybe not in the age range we look to, if he would be available to us though is a different matter

Anyway in conclusion I can understand why we have spent so much money on the young CB from Portugal, a fast player with good balls skills will really suit of formation and I expect us to be on the look out for players to come in the full backs/wing back positions who have the potential to be excellent attackers

[knockers]

good post. I really like our first say 13-14 players in a typical match squad. There isn't an awful lot I'd change. I'd sign Cissokho, Mosses if you could get him for a decent price.

I think Alberto looks good from the bits I've seen of him. Sterling could do with a loan as could Ibe for development but that would leave us short as a squad which is the paradox as we need a bigger squad in general but this season I think the small squad suits us as we've only got 1 game a week.

We do need a bit of cover in centre mid though, an old head maybe. Someone like an Alonso/McAlester/Barnes. Someone who can put their foot on the ball and take a bit of time out of the game but I'm not sure Rogers wants that from this team anymore.

I think he's changed his philosophy since his first 6 months at the club. From a slow build up possession based system, to a fast paced high pressure game. I like the way we've started to get a higher line and pressing the pitch smaller into the opposition half. That's the difference between having a ever slowing Carra in the team to now having Sakho.

[Frenchie]

Southampton might have been the trigger for his pragmatism. The high energy pressing has been a deciding factor in many games now along with the patience to play a formation that suits the players we have.

Additionally I'm so impressed with the current team spirit, it is the best I've seen since the John Barnes era. Although during the Torres and 2005 eras it was apparent in glimpses.

Sakho is immense by the way.

[Fosterbloke]

Sakho is immense by the way.

[Yozza]

A bit too early for this kind of talk I think!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2478246/Liverpool-win-league-title-1990.html

They've not won it for 23 YEARS, have lived in the shadow of Manchester United and last season they didn't even qualify for Europe... but here's why Liverpool are title contenders

By JACK GAUGHAN

To be fair to Brendan Rodgers, he has never once shirked the suggestion that Liverpool could be ready to launch a title bid. Even if this surge to the Premier League’s summit has taken us by surprise, he won’t be unduly shocked.
The manager’s enthusiasm and ability to provoke a reaction from a group that at times looked beleaguered has never waned – despite a difficult first season at Anfield.
Even if Rodgers believed they could do it, the word ‘champions’ didn’t exactly ring around Melwood in August.

But transfer market shrewdness – this summer and most pertinently in January – has seen Liverpool quickly develop into a side that can remain in contention.
At £12million Daniel Sturridge looked a serious gamble but he is flourishing. You won’t see a more exquisite finish all year than his chip over Boaz Myhill in Saturday's 4-1 win over West Brom.

Then there’s the little man beside him, Luis Suarez. Tenacity, a desire above all else to win – which undeniably can stretch the limits of what is acceptable – and the lowest centre of gravity in the division make him the scariest opponent.
They are, simply put, the most frightening duo in English football at this moment.
While the pair have taken all the plaudits – 14 goals between them already - there is certainly a backbone of a title-winning team.

At this stage last year Rodgers had seen his back four concede 14 goals. They’ve only been breached on eight occasions so far.

That's an 11-goal swing in just nine matches. Something serious is going on.
New goalkeeper Simon Mignolet has made some vital stops since moving from Sunderland – and there have been subtle tweaks in front of him.

Kolo Toure, derided at Manchester City, has found a new lease of life. Mamadou Sakho admits he isn’t anywhere near his best but has given added height and presence.
They were ruthless in midfield against West Brom during the 4-1 demolition. The choices now being made in there by Steven Gerrard and Jordan Henderson in particular are purposeful.

Last season was pass, pass, pass. And pass some more. The 3-0 opening day defeat against West Brom was a case in point. Rodgers’ first game in charge, they looked commanding in the opening 45 minutes. The hosts couldn’t get near them.

What was lacking was the speed of thought to know when to force the issue and when to retain possession. Responsibility was passed on all too easily and their attempts to score 'perfect goals' comfortably repelled.

So watching Liverpool notch in a variety of different ways – Saturday was a textbook example – shows they have grown and adapted. Suarez’s first was a moment of brilliance, but he can be thankful that Toure, coming out from defence, looked forward rather than to his wing-back.

The second was a piece of instinctive genius, concocted by a decent forage by Aly Cissokho, and the hat-trick will have given Rodgers satisfaction too. Nestled in between defenders, Suarez was found by Gerrard from a set-piece and flicked home.
The Uruguayan is feared by every other side in the division but there is more to it with Liverpool. The way in which Sturridge and Suarez are firing will please the boss, as will the more efficient passing and pressing.

Squad depth could be a determinate factor as to whether Liverpool can keep pace, but the way in which they killing teams – ‘death by football’ perhaps – means you simply cannot write the Merseysiders off.

As others remain calamity cases, Rodgers’ side – apart from an afternoon they had central defenders playing at full back against Southampton – have been almost faultless.
The boss has been given a wealth to spend, and not always wisely, but that is the same for each and every club that will fancy lifting the Premier League come May.
A trip to Arsenal on Saturday will be some sort of barometer, particularly how they cope when under the cosh, but not even a defeat there could dampen what has been a blistering start which should – if key men stay fit – continue.

[wiw]

Agree i'm surprised we have stuck with 3 at the back for so long, and up until the West Brom game I thought the balance of the team didn't seem right with Moses in there. With Gerrard/Henderson/Lucas however the balance looked excellent and we kept and passed the ball much better than prior games. Can't think who will give way when Coutinho is back because none of the midfielders deserve or should be dropped. I'd rather see us switch to 4 at the back and play Lucas deeper if anything.

[Dirk07]

I think I agree with you for the Arsenal game, in fact I actually prefer 4 at the back as it gets more technical players on to the pitch, Henderson is always going to be better on the ball then any of our CBs for example

That said I think we will stick to the same team but maybe get Luis to drop deeper a little?

[baitman]

three at the back allows our three midfielders to be one sitting DM [lucas] and two other midfielders moving box to box as we attack and defend.
although skrtel has done well im a little surprised that he has been favoured as the centre of the three. this may be down to agger's injury.

agger would be the ideal guy to run the defensive unit, and also contribute like a deep lying DM, stepping out from defence to intercept and sometimes even carry the ball out. he is a much more mobile player than skrtel and it would then allow us to play a higher defensive line.

[G]

The front 2 are the best there is but I worry about the lack of goals from midfield.

[Dirk07]

three at the back allows our three midfielders to be one sitting DM [lucas] and two other midfielders moving box to box as we attack and defend.
although skrtel has done well im a little surprised that he has been favoured as the centre of the three. this may be down to agger's injury.

agger would be the ideal guy to run the defensive unit, and also contribute like a deep lying DM, stepping out from defence to intercept and sometimes even carry the ball out. he is a much more mobile player than skrtel and it would then allow us to play a higher defensive line.

I have thought this as well about Agger, I think he will take Skrtel's place before long as he will help us retain possession a little better which has been a little challenging since our formation switch

As for bringing the ball out I see this as the major benefit of playing agger in this formation, we are going to have a spare man at the back from time to time and its important to push him forward when he has the ball and space to move into

[Hemingway]

I actually think Agger is the long-term ideal for that middle CB spot. It just so happens that Skrtel is playing so well that he can't be dropped without upsetting the "competition for places" dynamic BR has tried to foster. But yes, his ability to step up and become basically an auxiliary DM would really balance out the formation and once we start getting more games to allow more rotation, I presume we'll start to see just that.

The issue with playing four at the back and two up front is that there's either a lack of width or a lack of bodies in central midfield. There's the 4-4-2 (or pseudo-4-4-2 as we played it, with Coutinho having a free role on the left and Hendo tucked in on the right) that we struggled to control games with, and there's a 4-4-2 diamond/4-3-1-2 (basically the same thing). The problem with the midfield diamond is that you need the two wider midfielders in the diamond to have serious legs and work rate. Assuming Coutinho and Lucas are at the points of the diamond, then you have Gerrard and Hendo as the "carilleros", and while Hendo has the legs to pull that off, Stevie doesn't any more. It's just not a role he can play without us getting exposed - and that's no criticism of him, it'd just be a poor deployment of his current skillset. It also doesn't give us any natural width, meaning the fullbacks have to play as wingbacks but without the added security of three CBs behind them. (The "strikers" breaking off to play on the wings with the #10 functioning basically as a false nine also solves this problem, but since the entire idea is to have Sturridge/Suarez as a true central partnership, don't think that applies to us.) The benefit of the 3-5-2 is that it matches our personnel really well - maintains our traditional midfield triangle, maintains our usual sources of width, and still gets Suarez and Sturridge together up front. I'm a fan of simplicity and of getting as many good players on the pitch as possible at one time, and the 3-5-2 remains the simplest way of doing that. It has its flaws like any formation does, but it also has natural reactions to them (deploying Agger as a more libero-style CB being one of the big ones).

I do think that the biggest area of improvement needed in the squad is wingbacks. They're hugely important in the 3-5-2 and a lot of attacks will either thrive or die at their feet. That's one reason why our fluency in possession dropped over the past month or so - we lost Johnson (and to a lesser extent Enrique). Neither Johnson nor Enrique are custom-made 3-5-2 wingbacks, but especially not Enrique; I rate him as a traditional fullback, but as a wingback he lacks the intelligence, technical ability, and playing style (maintaining width) to really flourish. I'm not sure if Cissokho is of the quality we need. And there was no depth behind Johnson on the right. Adding a natural, top-drawer LWB would balance things out a lot, I think.

(Regardless of the formation, still think we could do with an elite CM, too, depending on how Lucas returns to form, Gerrard ages, and Hendo and Allen improve over the next couple months. But that should probably wait.)

[The_weatherman]

I actually think Agger is the long-term ideal for that middle CB spot. It just so happens that Skrtel is playing so well that he can't be dropped without upsetting the "competition for places" dynamic BR has tried to foster. But yes, his ability to step up and become basically an auxiliary DM would really balance out the formation and once we start getting more games to allow more rotation, I presume we'll start to see just that.

The issue with playing four at the back and two up front is that there's either a lack of width or a lack of bodies in central midfield. There's the 4-4-2 (or pseudo-4-4-2 as we played it, with Coutinho having a free role on the left and Hendo tucked in on the right) that we struggled to control games with, and there's a 4-4-2 diamond/4-3-1-2 (basically the same thing). The problem with the midfield diamond is that you need the two wider midfielders in the diamond to have serious legs and work rate. Assuming Coutinho and Lucas are at the points of the diamond, then you have Gerrard and Hendo as the "carilleros", and while Hendo has the legs to pull that off, Stevie doesn't any more. It's just not a role he can play without us getting exposed - and that's no criticism of him, it'd just be a poor deployment of his current skillset. It also doesn't give us any natural width, meaning the fullbacks have to play as wingbacks but without the added security of three CBs behind them. (The "strikers" breaking off to play on the wings with the #10 functioning basically as a false nine also solves this problem, but since the entire idea is to have Sturridge/Suarez as a true central partnership, don't think that applies to us.) The benefit of the 3-5-2 is that it matches our personnel really well - maintains our traditional midfield triangle, maintains our usual sources of width, and still gets Suarez and Sturridge together up front. I'm a fan of simplicity and of getting as many good players on the pitch as possible at one time, and the 3-5-2 remains the simplest way of doing that. It has its flaws like any formation does, but it also has natural reactions to them (deploying Agger as a more libero-style CB being one of the big ones).

I do think that the biggest area of improvement needed in the squad is wingbacks. They're hugely important in the 3-5-2 and a lot of attacks will either thrive or die at their feet. That's one reason why our fluency in possession dropped over the past month or so - we lost Johnson (and to a lesser extent Enrique). Neither Johnson nor Enrique are custom-made 3-5-2 wingbacks, but especially not Enrique; I rate him as a traditional fullback, but as a wingback he lacks the intelligence, technical ability, and playing style (maintaining width) to really flourish. I'm not sure if Cissokho is of the quality we need. And there was no depth behind Johnson on the right. Adding a natural, top-drawer LWB would balance things out a lot, I think.

(Regardless of the formation, still think we could do with an elite CM, too, depending on how Lucas returns to form, Gerrard ages, and Hendo and Allen improve over the next couple months. But that should probably wait.)

Good post, this may explain why we were after Siqueira from Granada, he'd fit nicely according to reports of him, technical, good passer and crosser. We'll see Agger back in the middle soon. When do you think Rodgers decided on this formation? IMO it was probably late in the preseason/start of the season, since he bought two additional CB's late plus Cissokho after trying for Siqueira as well.

When we were trying to sign Henrikh and Willian, I believe that was with the 4-3-3 formation in mind.

[Hemingway]

I completely agree - it was either 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 when we were after Mkh, Costa, and Willian. The funny thing is that none of them are similar players. Mkh is a traditional midfielder who plays in the #10 role, meaning the idea was more of a 4-3-3 with Coutinho on the wing. Then it was Costa then Willian, both of whom would've played on the wing and had Coutinho in the middle, with more of a 4-2-3-1. I actually don't think at any point during the transfer window, except maybe very late, he was thinking of the 3-5-2.

Despite his reputation, I actually see BR as highly pragmatic, and I suspect he likes the 3-5-2 for the same reasons I do (it's the most natural, easiest way to get our best players on the pitch). He has certain principles he will not sacrifice about how he sees the game, but how those principles are adopted vary wildly, usually based on however he thinks a team consisting of our best XI at a particular time will best function and interact with each other. We've seen Death By Football®, we've seen counter-attacking, we've seen pressing, we've seen absorbing pressure, we've seen a 4-3-3, three at the back, a 4-4-2 - all of it determined by whatever puzzle pieces he had at his disposal in an attempt to make those pieces fit together as nicely as possible, and all of it still visibly BR-style football (with perhaps the Villa/United/Soton games aside). I think the summer strategy was never "we need a player who will give us specifically the qualities of X, Y, and Z in C position," but instead "right, who's the best lad out there we can get who fits our style? I'll find a way to fit him in." We rated Mkh and he obviously fits the way we want to play; he didn't work, we changed the plan when it was a different guy. Eventually we got down to the point where the best available option was Sakho, and we needed a CB so we pulled the trigger. I have no doubt that the 3-5-2 has always been in the back of Brendan's mind - playing it against Everton and Fulham shows as much - but the reason we're playing it now, I'd guess, is that it happens that it's the easiest way to fit together a ****load of quality center backs and two boss strikers in the same team.

Part of that may be me seeing what I want to see, because I love a manager having a style but fitting the system itself to the players. But I do think it's a pretty good possibility.

[el matador]

Our varied approach to formations shows two things. Either that were prepared to mix things up to suit opponents or that BR doesn't yet know what his best formation is, or how to get the best out of what hes got.

I agree that when you've got three central defenders you don't need two sitting central midfield players as long as one of the three is able to move further forward and act as a second dm when necessary.

Against Newcastle we were crying out for toure to move into the dm position after their sending off allowing both Henderson and Gerrard to push on. Instead we had the situation where neither were willing to run behind their defence because of the vulnerability to counters.

Yet we had 3 defenders at times marking no one. I think were still at the experimental stage with BR. He wants Suarez and Sturridge causing problems but then its about accomodating those two together without making a pigs ear of our formation.