Palace vs Liverpool chat

[Doc_Piptorious]

I think Trent has suffered because of the form of players around him to be honest.

RCB next to him has been a car crash for most of thw season. Konate has been out for large parts of the year and Matip and Gomez have both been ****e for large parts of it too. The leader at the back, Virgil has been injured for a big chunk of it too and also has had a bad year. Fabinho as the base point that allows trent to attack has been ****in garbage. Elliot played a lot at RCM in front of trent for large parts of the season earpy on and although he did ok, he offered two thirds of **** all from a defensive point of view. Henderson has been ****e too.

I know hindsight is wonderful but perhaps Milner at RCM more often would have been better but klopp probably needed fabinho and Henderson to play through their poor form. Still does in reality.

Think it is too easy to point the finger at others with regards to Trent's form when he is being caught out of position on a regular basis, when his tracking back is visibly lackadaisical looking compared to seasons past, and so on.

The RCB point I am not sure is so valid either. Konate aside they are all players that he has played alongside for years now and even Konate he has played or trained alongside for 18 months now.

The RCM point I do agree with as there has been a marked drop off in the physicality of that position for us regardless of who we play there and Fabinho has seen a decline in his output.

However the likes of Henderson, and to a lesser degree Fabinho, you can explain somewhat due to getting older and losing the explosiveness they once had, but Trent is 24 years of age and has been moving like he is 34.

Salah often gets pelters on here for now taking games by the scruff of teh neck and leading by example. Trent is 6 or so years younger and like Mo gets lauded for being a world class player. Throw in that he is a local lad and where is the passion and drive being shown? Not too long ago people were saying he was nailed on to be captain.

Do not think he can be judged as being a young up and comer anymore. He is one of our senior players with over 250 club games under his belt and oodles of experience at the highest level, not to mention a nice collection of medals to highlight how experienced he is at the sharp end of the game.

He, for me, needs to be showing that he deserves to be one of the building blocks for the next team rebuilds, that the team needs him, instead he is blending in with the worst performers during a season where we badly need those that will be there for the long run to be standing up.


Is Trent affected by the malaise around him? Quite probably imo. Is he part of the cause of that malaise? My own take is that he most definately is.


This season for me has shattered the team of mentality monsters myth and shown it to a team where we had some mentality monsters upon whom the rest pitched their flags.

When those mentality monsters no longer can go to the ohysical levels to match their mental fortitude and the other players around then, who followed into battle with them time after time, just do not have the same tools to be the ones leading the fight.

Guess part of this post is a long way of saying that imo Trent and a few others in our team are players who raise their game when pushed by others, instead of being the ones that inspire others to try to raise their games to match them.

[frank the tank]

I think Trent has suffered because of the form of players around him to be honest.

RCB next to him has been a car crash for most of thw season. Konate has been out for large parts of the year and Matip and Gomez have both been ****e for large parts of it too. The leader at the back, Virgil has been injured for a big chunk of it too and also has had a bad year. Fabinho as the base point that allows trent to attack has been ****in garbage. Elliot played a lot at RCM in front of trent for large parts of the season earpy on and although he did ok, he offered two thirds of **** all from a defensive point of view. Henderson has been ****e too.

I know hindsight is wonderful but perhaps Milner at RCM more often would have been better but klopp probably needed fabinho and Henderson to play through their poor form. Still does in reality.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Again I agree with much of this. Until this season I'd thought that Klopp, and Trent in partcular, had re-invented the full back position; that Southgate wouldn't play him but that was because he could or would not put the right system in place with the right players, and that was a loss for England; and that he was a future captain of our team. But something is just not right this season and the question is whether it is a blip or longer-term, and if it is the latter is he the new Dele Ali (ie a change of club makes no difference) or does he need to move on. Just pushing him up into midfield because he is brilliant at passing would mean accepting him as a luxury midfielder unless these issues with his current performance can be ironed out.

All this should be in Trent's thread, which - a bit like the man/boy at the moment - is lolling around on page 4!

I do find the emergence of TAA and Hakimi as ultra attacking RBs to be very interesting.

Both 24, both more or less became first team regulars at a similar age and both at their best are potential games changers from the right back slot or right wing back slot. Trent being more of a playmaker at times letting the ball do the work and Hakimi going down the force of nature route at times.

Difference right now between them seems to be work rate and/or mentality. Hakimi constantly looks like a 24 year old athlete at the peak of his physical powers and even when having a bad game he never gives up causes and chases up and down his flank. He comes up against a top notch left winger and he seems to relish a few early physical chases or battles with that winger early on in games

Trent on the other hand seems to fade from games and does so a lot in games against teams that have a star left winger. Which is strange as for a number of years he was going up against some of the best left sided attackers in the game both in the league and in the CL and back then it took an excellent perfromance or a really good bit of skill to shake him off.

[Paul12]

I like Trent and hope that next season he rams all the doubts about him down the throats of me and anyone else who are thinking them, but I have to agree with you with regards his mentality (not sure if it is a over confidence thing ( my **** don't stink) or a lack of confidence thing (my **** really stinks and am hiding away because of it), but he constantly looks "off" and is constantly wondering into odd parts of the pitch and then strolling back towards his own position.

That incisive passing and long range play switching passing has, save for a few glimpses now and then, seems to have left his game and when he does venture across the pitch to what would be an AM position or even a LCM or LAM position (he did that a few times in the game against Real) he tends to look slow on the ball and slow to react which pretty much should be red flags for anyone who thinks he would suit a midfield role.

Did also think during the Real game that there were chunks of the game where he just did not fancy having to take on Vinicius.


As said I hope he comes storming back next season and racks up a crazy number of assists along with getting some of that chasing back that he used to have in his game.

I never bought into any of the talk of past seasons that he was a bad defender who just happened to be great going forward. To me he was also a good right back who happened to be world class on the front foot, that combination of qwualities making him a world class right back imo, but this season his defending has been poor, very poor even, at times and his attacking play has been pretty average.

And another thing I do not buy into is any talk of burn out, physical burn out that is, for him. He is 24 years of age, starting to approach his physical prime and playing for his home town team. He should be living the dream and being one of the guys that brings a massive amount of energy to our play.

Instead he looks more like a guy who was great in his 20s but now is 31 or 32 and looking a shadow of what he was.


Trent to a central midfield position is always a no go for me. If we want a top class RCM, then we need to go buy a top class RCM. The talk of TAA being played at CM or CAM just reminds me of years ago when people used to call for Philipp Lahm to be made a full time CM. For me it is simple, if a guy is one of the best in the world in his regular position then play him there and stop dreaming about him playing elsewhere.

Again I agree with much of this. Until this season I'd thought that Klopp, and Trent in partcular, had re-invented the full back position; that Southgate wouldn't play him but that was because he could or would not put the right system in place with the right players, and that was a loss for England; and that he was a future captain of our team. But something is just not right this season and the question is whether it is a blip or longer-term, and if it is the latter is he the new Dele Ali (ie a change of club makes no difference) or does he need to move on. Just pushing him up into midfield because he is brilliant at passing would mean accepting him as a luxury midfielder unless these issues with his current performance can be ironed out.

All this should be in Trent's thread, which - a bit like the man/boy at the moment - is lolling around on page 4!

[Doc_Piptorious]

I largely agree with this, which has got me wondering whether Trent actually has a long-term future at the club. (I am not looking to call everyone "rubbish" and I don't think we should be looking to buy LOTS of players this summer, but I don't agree with those who keep suggesting Trent be moved to midfield without addressing the above issues. And it makes me wonder where he fits in to the Mentality Monsters Version 2.0.

I like Trent and hope that next season he rams all the doubts about him down the throats of me and anyone else who are thinking them, but I have to agree with you with regards his mentality (not sure if it is a over confidence thing ( my **** don't stink) or a lack of confidence thing (my **** really stinks and am hiding away because of it), but he constantly looks "off" and is constantly wondering into odd parts of the pitch and then strolling back towards his own position.

That incisive passing and long range play switching passing has, save for a few glimpses now and then, seems to have left his game and when he does venture across the pitch to what would be an AM position or even a LCM or LAM position (he did that a few times in the game against Real) he tends to look slow on the ball and slow to react which pretty much should be red flags for anyone who thinks he would suit a midfield role.

Did also think during the Real game that there were chunks of the game where he just did not fancy having to take on Vinicius.


As said I hope he comes storming back next season and racks up a crazy number of assists along with getting some of that chasing back that he used to have in his game.

I never bought into any of the talk of past seasons that he was a bad defender who just happened to be great going forward. To me he was also a good right back who happened to be world class on the front foot, that combination of qwualities making him a world class right back imo, but this season his defending has been poor, very poor even, at times and his attacking play has been pretty average.

And another thing I do not buy into is any talk of burn out, physical burn out that is, for him. He is 24 years of age, starting to approach his physical prime and playing for his home town team. He should be living the dream and being one of the guys that brings a massive amount of energy to our play.

Instead he looks more like a guy who was great in his 20s but now is 31 or 32 and looking a shadow of what he was.


Trent to a central midfield position is always a no go for me. If we want a top class RCM, then we need to go buy a top class RCM. The talk of TAA being played at CM or CAM just reminds me of years ago when people used to call for Philipp Lahm to be made a full time CM. For me it is simple, if a guy is one of the best in the world in his regular position then play him there and stop dreaming about him playing elsewhere.

[Paul12]

...The RCM in our set up is meant to be helping track the runners for the RB, so if TAA is not doing so as the actual RB what are the chances of him tracking runs as a RCM and helping out whoever the RB then is?

If you want to remove some (not all) of his tracking work load then using him as a wing back or a Rightside wide midfielder would be the most logical choices imo, but that would require us going to a flat four in the centre if we want to use him as a RM or going with five at the back if we want to accomadate him as a wing back.

Would also mean whoever we see as our best left winger option (probably Diaz) then having to play as a LM and not a LW or if we went to a back five we would have to sacrifice a player either in attack or in midfield to make up for the extra CB the back five would require. ...

I largely agree with this, which has got me wondering whether Trent actually has a long-term future at the club. (I am not looking to call everyone "rubbish" and I don't think we should be looking to buy LOTS of players this summer, but I don't agree with those who keep suggesting Trent be moved to midfield without addressing the above issues. And it makes me wonder where he fits in to the Mentality Monsters Version 2.0.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Maybe that was part of the issue with the players early on; over confidence that they'd turn up and pick up 3 points, that not happening has seen our confidence blown to pieces whilst other clubs now don't see us as a team to fear.

Think that will play in our favour if we get some proper reinforcements in this summer.

Season will start with a few of the weaker teams thinking that we will still fold if a bit of pressure is put on on. They they realise that not only are we still standing firm after taking a few shots, but we have a smile on our faces and are saying " Our turn now"


We might have been crap, by our standards, for much of this season, however a good summer in the transfer market may well see this season's crapness be a boon next season or at least I am choosing to believe that.

[RichC]

I agree with the latter part, not sure i agree with doom and gloom part. Its pretty clear objectively this team is massively under performing. By rights it should be walking to fourth and it isn't. The annoying thing it was abundantly clear we were sleepwalking towards this drop off due to issues with investment.

Maybe that was part of the issue with the players early on; over confidence that they'd turn up and pick up 3 points, that not happening has seen our confidence blown to pieces whilst other clubs now don't see us as a team to fear.

[labourRed]

And the same players delivered some of the best times you’ve had as a supporter in recent years.

I go and watch Hearts a few times, been about four times this season and the supporters are typically miserable as ****. But they’ve earned the right to moan and be miserable. Zero chance of winning the league every year and the slim hope of a good cup run if you can avoid the old firm. That’s it. That’s as good as it gets. Yet these guys love football just as much as anyone in here, the same as supporters of countless teams in the same position.

Liverpool supporters who chock the towel in after 6 bad months or whatever (and we are 7th not 17th) just underline what I was saying above! One season where too 4 looks a stretch and we won’t get to the CL final and it’s all doom and gloom.

Football is escape, it’s sport, it’s a game. Who gives a **** how much they earn.

I agree with the latter part, not sure i agree with doom and gloom part. Its pretty clear objectively this team is massively under performing. By rights it should be walking to fourth and it isn't. The annoying thing it was abundantly clear we were sleepwalking towards this drop off due to issues with investment.

[SB]

In order of how good they have been imo this season, starting with the best.


Alisson has been good this season. Sure he had a few blips but he kept us in far more games than those he had blips in. And even the games in which he made an error, he then went on to make good saves after the error.


Bajcetic has been good this season.

Konate was playing well before he was injured.

Darwin has been good this season notwithstanding that red card that broke up his start to the season.

Thiago when fit has been good far more often than poor.

Salah has been good by normal standards this season. Any other wide man in the league with his goal and assist return in all comps would be gertting loads of praise. Is just that the bar is set really high for Salah so a good season for any other player looks like a poor one for him.


Robertson might sneak into a good list too, but only just about. He has been solid more often than not and generally looked better than his counterpart on the other side.

Tsimikas has look good more often than not at LB also.



After that it starts to become difficult to put a positive spin on too many other players for the season to date. Some have been poor a lot and some, like Gakpo, Jotas, Carvalho etc just have not played enough to say much about them.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Has anyone played well this season?

Has Salah?

The kid didn't pretty well in his first few games and is a nice little option off the bench when we're looking for goals. Certainly offers a bigger threat than the majority of the turgid dross we bring off the bench at the end of games. Ox, Milner, Jones et al.

I hope they're working behind the scenes on getting him up to speed on our tactics and fitting him into midfield and building a fitness base. Because if it's not that, then you're absolutely destroying this kids confidence. Does he even play for the u21's?

Should've been sent out on loan for the rest of the season if he's never going to play.

In order of how good they have been imo this season, starting with the best.


Alisson has been good this season. Sure he had a few blips but he kept us in far more games than those he had blips in. And even the games in which he made an error, he then went on to make good saves after the error.


Bajcetic has been good this season.

Konate was playing well before he was injured.

Darwin has been good this season notwithstanding that red card that broke up his start to the season.

Thiago when fit has been good far more often than poor.

Salah has been good by normal standards this season. Any other wide man in the league with his goal and assist return in all comps would be gertting loads of praise. Is just that the bar is set really high for Salah so a good season for any other player looks like a poor one for him.


Robertson might sneak into a good list too, but only just about. He has been solid more often than not and generally looked better than his counterpart on the other side.

Tsimikas has look good more often than not at LB also.



After that it starts to become difficult to put a positive spin on too many other players for the season to date. Some have been poor a lot and some, like Gakpo, Jotas, Carvalho etc just have not played enough to say much about them.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I suspect his days as a defender are largely over, but I don't see the change happening DURING the season. One issue is that there is no reason to think he'll be any good at the defensive duties - tracking runners etc - so I do worry whether there is a place for him in a midfield comprising just 3 players. But would Klopp go to 4 in midfield when he has so many attackers?

I have forgotten already how good Gerrard was defensively, so I don't know whether he is the model for a Trent in midfield.

If you think cannot track runners on the right flank then what chance has he oif tracking an even greater volume of runners as a RCM or CM?

The RCM in our set up is meant to be helping track the runners for the RB, so
if TAA is not doing so as the actual RB what are the chances of him tracking runs as a RCM and helping out whoever the RB then is?

If youy want to remove some (not all) of his tracking work load then using him as a wing back or a Rightside wide midfielder would be the most logical choices imo, but that would require us going to a flat four in the centre if we want to use him as a RM or going with five at the back if we want to accomadate him as a wing back.

Would also mean whoever we see as our best left winger option (probably Diaz) then having to play as a LM and not a LW or if we went to a back five we would have to sacrifice a player either in attack or in midfield to make up for the extra CB the back five would require.


I do personally think a back five would have made sense at times this season (when we had all four CBs fit as options that is) as it might have given us more protection at the times we were leaking goals through the centre, but from this summer after we get fresh blood in and look a stronger unit I would be sticking with four defenders and not five.

[vlahka]

Oh yes, sorry my joke was a poor one. I mean he played well so was left out. Little jab at our first team players being consistently garbage yet still playing all the time.

[Harv]

Probably played well.

Has anyone played well this season?

Has Salah?

The kid did pretty well in his first few games and is a nice little option off the bench when we're looking for goals. Certainly offers a bigger threat than the majority of the turgid dross we bring off the bench at the end of games. Ox, Milner, Jones et al.

I hope they're working behind the scenes on getting him up to speed on our tactics and fitting him into midfield and building a fitness base. Because if it's not that, then you're absolutely destroying this kids confidence. Does he even play for the u21's?

Should've been sent out on loan for the rest of the season if he's never going to play.

[little dave hedgehog]

I suspect his days as a defender are largely over, but I don't see the change happening DURING the season. One issue is that there is no reason to think he'll be any good at the defensive duties - tracking runners etc - so I do worry whether there is a place for him in a midfield comprising just 3 players. But would Klopp go to 4 in midfield when he has so many attackers?

I have forgotten already how good Gerrard was defensively, so I don't know whether he is the model for a Trent in midfield.

would be odd to see klopp use a 3-5-2 or similar, but would love to see him as a wingback who wasn't expected to defend as much.