Selling Crouch?

[red g]

I don't think he will, non goal scoring strikers aren't a valuable commodity.

apart from in the liverpool team .....

[Delinquent]

Yes but they, presumably, take context into consideration. The point I'm making is that bare stats aren't much good to anybody and they only tell part of the story.

But when accompanied by visual evidence, they can be a very useful tool. Which makes them a great deal less than "pointless", no?

[dww]

OPTA is one of the more pointless features of the modern game, IMO.

I think it has certainly been to the detriment of discussion and journalism. I'm sure it helps coaches who use it as part of a more broad and well informed approach.

On forums it has lead purely to people being able to write FACT at the end of subjective opinions more. Journalist have adopted much the same mentality except are a little more subtle.

[brendan]

I don't think he will, non goal scoring strikers aren't a valuable commodity.

I think arch-politician McClaren will bring back two or three players (Defoe, Bent, Ashton) as he knows that their non-appearance at the WC was unpopular in many quarters. He'll start with two out of those three, I think.

I'll be very surprised to see Crouch start.

[Shaggy]

But when accompanied by visual evidence, they can be a very useful tool. Which makes them a great deal less than "pointless", no?

I mean pointless in terms of them being quoted by journalists or even fans on forums. Sky Sports are particularly adept at "abusing the stat".

For coaches, football analysts and the like, then fine...it's a valuable tool.

[Hamstrung]

I'll be surprised if he doesn't start with Crouch.

[dww]

Ashton - Defoe would seem the natural partnership. I welcome anything that forces an England manager to look at having multiple options / styles of play. I hope this is something McClaren brings to the table. We need to learn to use our squad more fully and use the right players for the right games.

[brendan]

I think it has certainly been to the detriment of discussion and journalism. I'm sure it helps coaches who use it as part of a more broad and well informed approach.

On forums it has lead purely to people being able to write FACT at the end of subjective opinions more. Journalist have adopted much the same mentality except are a little more subtle.

It certainly makes the contribution of players like Crouch much harder to qualify, as the "quantify" bit of the equation is there to see.

Goals? There in black & white. Seven in the Premiership. Well, what about assists? The flick-ons, the set-up play? Oh. Four. All season. Possession? Oh, that doesn't look great either.

Then it becomes "secondary" assists, "nuisance" factor and "holding the ball further up the pitch".

It's not hard to work out why some are, shall we say, less than convinced.

[Peter Delvechio]

I think arch-politician McClaren will bring back two or three players (Defoe, Bent, Ashton) as he knows that their non-appearance at the WC was unpopular in many quarters. He'll start with two out of those three, I think.

I'll be very surprised to see Crouch start.

McClaren isn't an 'arch'-anything Brendan.

Except maybe an 'arch-ginge'.

[red g]

Ashton - Defoe would seem the natural partnership. I welcome anything that forces an England manager to look at having multiple options / styles of play. I hope this is something McClaren brings to the table. We need to learn to use our squad more fully and use the right players for the right games.

think he will start Rooney and Defoe.

[brendan]

McClaren isn't an 'arch'-anything Brendan.

Except maybe an 'arch-ginge'.

Dodgy nashers, too. And I hate his haircut.

I've seen him do a team-talk/ tactics thingy (through a hotel window) and he looked like an Area salesman for Vileda Mops doing a pitch.

Mind you, the mop salesman might have done a better job, as they threw away a 4-1 lead at Norwich about three hours later.

[dww]

It certainly makes the contribution of players like Crouch much harder to qualify, as the "quantify" bit of the equation is there to see.

Goals? There in black & white. Seven in the Premiership. Well, what about assists? The flick-ons, the set-up play? Oh. Four. All season. Possession? Oh, that doesn't look great either.

Then it becomes "secondary" assists, "nuisance" factor and "holding the ball further up the pitch".

It's not hard to work out why some are, shall we say, less than convinced.

Personally I prefer the Spanish defenition of assist. The idea that a piece of play that contributes to the making of a goal scoring opportunity is what an assist is. I know this may well add further subjectivity but it does eliminate the fact that Crouch's low assist rate can easily be attributed to the crap finishing of our squad as a whole last season.

The possession stat is one I really need to see what they are measuring.

I'm quite willing to see why people are unconvinced by Crouch. I think he is a good player. I just dislike the way the debate often centres around what people hold to be indisputable facts - when the only real fact is that he scored 7 league goals and no one is argueing that Crouch has been a prolific striker.

[Hamstrung]

think he will start Rooney and Defoe.

Rooney's banned.

Stats are useful but if used in isolation to back up a point can be completely meaningless. That's true if someone is using them to prove a player is good or bad. I would think if you rumagged through the opta stats you'd find some that would suggest Gerrard was ineffective at certain things - I don't remember him being ineffective in any way.

With regard to Crouch, I know what I see, and I don't see a poor footballer.

Its no coincidence that the likes of Gerrard and Carragher rave about him at every opportunity - they know what he offers. They don't have to do it - they could easily keep their mouths shut.

[Shaggy]

Agreed Hamstrung. Gerrard is notoriously hard to please, and his frustration at our lack of quality in recent years has often been written all over his face. I think Stevie's admiration for Crouch speaks volumes for his value to the side.

[Hamstrung]

I think arch-politician McClaren will bring back two or three players (Defoe, Bent, Ashton) as he knows that their non-appearance at the WC was unpopular in many quarters. He'll start with two out of those three, I think.

I'll be very surprised to see Crouch start.

According to your favourite site, he is.