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Alex 16-12-11 11:29 AM

Manchester United
 
Are they on the decline, or is it a case of AF simply rebuilding again? Had this discussion the other night. A few of Man Utd fans I know now think Ferguson has had his years in the sun, and is not going to be the man too take them forward to another title.

Last season they were not good at all, best of a bad bunch really, this season they started well but have stuttered badly.

Thoughts


Did you know in the last 3 1/2 seasons Ferguson has names only 2 unchanged sides? Mad when you consider the stick Rafa and Ranieri got about rotation

RichC 16-12-11 11:46 AM

I think it'll be hard for Fergie to build again now, age is going to go against him he's almost 70 now but hard to write him off completely.

As much as it pains me to say he's got an amazing knack of getting the very best out of his sides even when they're clearly not that good he finds a way to get them on a run of results I mean even this season they're still only 2 points of City whilst quality wise far,far inferior to them.

Vermilion 16-12-11 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rcasemore (Post 2163221)
I think it'll be hard for Fergie to build again now, age is going to go against him he's almost 70 now but hard to write him off completely.

As much as it pains me to say he's got an amazing knack of getting the very best out of his sides even when they're clearly not that good he finds a way to get them on a run of results I mean even this season they're still only 2 points of City whilst quality wise far,far inferior to them.

Yep, but he also has an amazing knack of having his shittier seasons/sides coincide with every other top team being in transition, or in turmoil one way or another!

Timing has been everything in his long reign, and not a lot of it planned that way either.

But yeah, grudgingly, he has done a decent job too, but by fuck has he been lucky and helped along the way too.

Shanks 16-12-11 11:54 AM

They need to spend on a creative midfileder and a striker..

Can't rely on Rooney..

If they don't, then they may start to slip away.. For the first time in a while teams will be going to OT knowing they can get something..

The problem is ours, Arsenal and Spurs inconsistency, that's keeping them were they are.

PTP 16-12-11 11:56 AM

for years i've said united are starting to show cracks etc and they always come back!

fucking cunts! :haha:

i won't start believing it till it happens

the big thing is fergie and what he leaves behind - if he leaves a good squad, they have money to spend and bring in someone like Mourinho, then they will be ok...

however ideal situation would be that he goes, giggs retires, vidic leaves, rooney wants out, ferdinand moves on and they appoint someone like Moyes :D

Lee 16-12-11 12:01 PM

I have nothing to add to this thread other than that they're a cunt of a club. :handshake:

lickedlollipop 16-12-11 12:06 PM

^^

end.

Alex 16-12-11 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee (Post 2163246)
I have nothing to add to this thread other than that they're a cunt of a club. :handshake:

Quote:

Originally Posted by lickedlollipop (Post 2163256)
^^

end.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.

Lee 16-12-11 12:14 PM

To be honest mate I don't think they're on the decline at all. City and Spurs have got stronger, Arsenal got stronger under Wenger years ago and Chelsea have been a bit of a force since 2003.

Perhaps United haven't pulled away as far as they should have but they're still up there. :chunks:

People thought they were on the decline when Cantona left, Stam, van Nistelrooy, Beckham etc. End of the day Ferguson - although he's a cunt - is a fantastic manager. I don't think they'll win the title this season or next (City will probably do that now), but they'll always finish top two or three. :(

Alex 16-12-11 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee (Post 2163271)
To be honest mate I don't think they're on the decline at all. City and Spurs have got stronger, Arsenal got stronger under Wenger years ago and Chelsea have been a bit of a force since 2003.

Perhaps United haven't pulled away as far as they should have but they're still up there. :chunks:

People thought they were on the decline when Cantona left, Stam, van Nistelrooy, Beckham etc. End of the day Ferguson - although he's a cunt - is a fantastic manager. I don't think they'll win the title this season or next (City will probably do that now), but they'll always finish top two or three. :(

People always thought that about us though.

Lee 16-12-11 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 2163278)
People always thought that about us though.

Thanks for adding to the discussion.


:crackoff:


They'll be top two or three for the foreseeable.

dww 16-12-11 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 2163198)
Are they on the decline, or is it a case of AF simply rebuilding again? Had this discussion the other night. A few of Man Utd fans I know now think Ferguson has had his years in the sun, and is not going to be the man too take them forward to another title.

Last season they were not good at all, best of a bad bunch really, this season they started well but have stuttered badly.

Thoughts


Did you know in the last 3 1/2 seasons Ferguson has names only 2 unchanged sides? Mad when you consider the stick Rafa and Ranieri got about rotation

I think he thought Cleverly would go a long way to knitting their team together (and it looked like he was right before his injury). Since he has been out they have reverted to the dull team that won the league but was 3rd best to Barcelona in the CL final.

The problem is that there will be no big funds for a rebuild given their debt burden. The CM they need now more than ever with Fletchers injury will be very expensive. In the past one of Ferguson's biggest talents has been getting in and developing players with the right mentality. Very few good enough CMs with that knack around.

I honestly think given the circumstances he would do as well as anyone rebuilding the current side.

JohnDoe 16-12-11 12:38 PM

They're on pace for over 90 points in the season. They're just two points off 1st place. They looked much worse last season and won the title.

I don't see a decline.

Chris 16-12-11 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnDoe (Post 2163311)
They're on pace for over 90 points in the season. They're just two points off 1st place. They looked much worse last season and won the title.

I don't see a decline.

Their squad clearly has been compared to previous years, you'd look around and see world class players eveywhere, VDS, Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, prime Ferdinand, prime Evra, you dont anymore. They still have plenty of quality though, are in a weak league and have that brilliant mentality which will keep them going for a while yet.

RichC 16-12-11 12:42 PM

thing is even though their squad is weaker they still get the results.

Reece 16-12-11 12:45 PM

They have Phil Jones now. Everything else is a mute point.

Resu 16-12-11 12:46 PM

How are they doing debtwise? Havn`t herad much about that lately, for all the talk about the Glaziers bleeding the club they always finds money to strengthen.

Alex 16-12-11 12:48 PM

I think they are slowly coming out of it. Slowly mind.

JohnDoe 16-12-11 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 2163316)
Their squad clearly has been compared to previous years, you'd look around and see world class players eveywhere, VDS, Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, prime Ferdinand, prime Evra, you dont anymore. They still have plenty of quality though, are in a weak league and have that brilliant mentality which will keep them going for a while yet.

The league has weakened as a whole over the last couple of years, but the mancs still find themselves in a very strong position to continue winning titles. I really can't say they're on the decline just because they're not the elite team they were when Ronaldo played for them. In comparison to other sides like Chelsea, Arsenal and us, they've done exceptionally well to solidify themselves.

Darkon 16-12-11 12:51 PM

They are far from finished IMO, although they have a weaker squad than before they still have one of the best managers in the world, if not the best. Ferguson is just fantastic at getting the most out of average players and a very good tactician, so I don't reckon they are on a decline as such. More of a transition phase.

And they are second right now 2 points of a Man City team that have only lost 1 game this season, so they are clearly still conteders - unfortunatly :/

Imy 16-12-11 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTP (Post 2163237)
for years i've said united are starting to show cracks etc and they always come back!

fucking cunts! :haha:

i won't start believing it till it happens

the big thing is fergie and what he leaves behind - if he leaves a good squad, they have money to spend and bring in someone like Mourinho, then they will be ok...

however ideal situation would be that he goes, giggs retires, vidic leaves, rooney wants out, ferdinand moves on and they appoint someone like Moyes :D

:handshake:

Ideally they'll appoint Manchester United old boy Steve Bruce :handshake:

lickedlollipop 16-12-11 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (Post 2163265)
Thanks for adding to the discussion.

:haha: :cheerleader:

Exiled_red 16-12-11 02:49 PM

I don't think this Man Utd team have the quality of some of their past teams. But they have the team spirit / ability / luck that allows them to nick a win when they haven't played well. How many times have they done that over the last few years and got scruffy 1-0 wins? As long as they can keep doing that they'll be a threat.

wavydavy 06-01-12 06:38 PM

Very untypical dig at Ferguson. The wind of change?

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opin...OIRYvc.twitter

Red_Polo 06-01-12 06:44 PM

That's from September 2010, wavy - have you linked the right thing?

Chazza 06-01-12 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavydavy (Post 2184352)
Very untypical dig at Ferguson. The wind of change?

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opin...OIRYvc.twitter

Written in Sept 2010 that one

wavydavy 06-01-12 06:49 PM

:o Got sent it and didn't read it properly.Thought it was recent given the old twat dying and all. Sorry :D

lfcred 07-01-12 12:52 PM

not going to be long before they start declining even more in my opinion! i thikn ferguson might be slowly losing his touch, and i think other clubs will be getting more investment in them in the future! might be time for ferguson to go before he ends on a low note!

lickedlollipop 07-01-12 01:14 PM

^^

proved us wrong many many many times.

kris90210 07-01-12 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lickedlollipop (Post 2185845)
^^

proved us wrong many many many times.

Exactly. They always find a way of punching above their weight. You've got to give it to Ferguson - he's a hell of a manager. They will be there or thereabouts until the day he retires, then we might see them decline in the face of Chelsea and Man City's millions.

fah-q 07-01-12 01:38 PM

Rumours on twitter that Scholes is going to come out of retirement to ease their injury/crapness in midfield crisis. Probably a joke mind.

Kenneth 07-01-12 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fah-q (Post 2185862)
Rumours on twitter that Scholes is going to come out of retirement to ease their injury/crapness in midfield crisis. Probably a joke mind.

Either way.

ChesterDave 07-01-12 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fah-q (Post 2185862)
Rumours on twitter that Scholes is going to come out of retirement to ease their injury/crapness in midfield crisis. Probably a joke mind.

Would be fun to see Gary Neville commenting on his glorious performances and how he'd give him a big sloppy kiss for that great pass/goal/foul.

Robbie-9-Fowler 07-01-12 03:44 PM

It's all going to depend on how well they replace the likes of Giggs, Ferdinand and keeping hold of the likes of Rooney and Vidic.

They lack a central midfielder in the ilk of Sneijder or Modric, can see them going after someone young like Erickson.

They've got a problem with the amount of injury prone and older players they've got too;

Ferdinand
Rafael
Fabio
Fletcher
Giggs
Owen
Evans
Vidic - seems to miss a fair few games each season too

Not forgetting there annual Rooney problems, which see's him going on a poor run for 3/4 months. Yet somehow they still manage to grind out results :grr:

Muddled 07-01-12 03:50 PM

I think Vidic is getting on a bit now and I think they would have looked to sell him at the end of this season, if he hadn't got injured and Evans is wank. They need to address their defence as much as they have to address their midfield.

Robbie-9-Fowler 07-01-12 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddled (Post 2185962)
I think Vidic is getting on a bit now and I think they would have looked to sell him at the end of this season, if he hadn't got injured and Evans is wank. They need to address their defence as much as they have to address their midfield.

:handshake: especially with Jones looking better further forward than at CB and Evra has made one of the most dramatic falls from grace I can remember for a United player. Horrible season and a half from him, not half the player he once was.

peekay 08-01-12 01:54 AM

Remember after Rafa's second season how we used to feel invincible in Europe. We did not care about the injuries, which team we played. We ( the fans, the players, the club) felt that we could go anywhere in Europe - Barcelona, Madrid, Milan - and pull out a result when needed. That sort of mentality is priceless and enabled us to become the most feared team in europe. It took a pair of gigantic moron of owners to pull us down from that mentality.

Mancs have the same in the premier league built over two decades. They start every season expecting to win it. Irrespective of the injuries and the signings, they are able to wipe the floor with teams placed 5 to 15 because of the mentality. As long as they have that mentality they will always be in the top 2.

lackyboy 08-01-12 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peekay (Post 2186621)
Remember after Rafa's second season how we used to feel invincible in Europe. We did not care about the injuries, which team we played. We ( the fans, the players, the club) felt that we could go anywhere in Europe - Barcelona, Madrid, Milan - and pull out a result when needed. That sort of mentality is priceless and enabled us to become the most feared team in europe. It took a pair of gigantic moron of owners to pull us down from that mentality.

Mancs have the same in the premier league built over two decades. They start every season expecting to win it. Irrespective of the injuries and the signings, they are able to wipe the floor with teams placed 5 to 15 because of the mentality. As long as they have that mentality they will always be in the top 2.

I think your right there Peekay, teams who acually attack utd and don't sit back, often come out with better results - especially at the moment with their makeshift defence. They do have quality throughout without question, but if some of the lesser teams had the mentality to go 35/65 instead of 20/80 in terms of attack, I think they may struggle. Utd seeem to enjoy teams parking the bus (as opposed to us!)

Gingawaria 08-01-12 11:36 AM

I look at their team compared to ours and I seriously struggle to see how they're so far ahead of us. A manc friend of mine was laughing at Adam and Spearing in midfield against Newcastle the other week saying we're never going to win anything with them in the side. Compared to theirs? They've been playing with Phil Jones at centre mid, a player they bought as a centre back?!!?

Exiled_red 08-01-12 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lackyboy (Post 2186627)
I think your right there Peekay, teams who acually attack utd and don't sit back, often come out with better results - especially at the moment with their makeshift defence. They do have quality throughout without question, but if some of the lesser teams had the mentality to go 35/65 instead of 20/80 in terms of attack, I think they may struggle. Utd seeem to enjoy teams parking the bus (as opposed to us!)

:handshake:

Shaggy 08-01-12 12:04 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...ted?CMP=twt_gu

Quote:

Sir Alex Ferguson powerless to stop Manchester United empire crumbling

Manchester United may go on to win the Double, but there can be no happy ending for a decaying club

Rob Smyth

guardian.co.uk, Saturday 7 January 2012 22.55 GMT

It did not take a couple of spineless defeats to Blackburn and Newcastle, or a reminder of the apparently inexorable breakdown in the relationship between Sir Alex Ferguson and Wayne Rooney, to confirm that Manchester United are on their knees ahead of Sunday's FA Cup tie at Manchester City. The defeats and the latest Rooney story barely registered. After a while, you stop noticing the nails going in the coffin.

There is a perception, born of ignorance or sandyheadedness, that United fans complaining about the state of the club are just spoilt brats who can't handle the odd bad result. Poppycock. You would be surprised how many fans welcome defeats, even humiliations, on some level, because they hasten an industrial cleansing of the club that has been necessary since United embarked on the road to ruin with the Glazers on 12 May 2005. The sooner United hit rock bottom, the sooner the club can regain its identity.

Every significant aspect of the club is decaying. The squad is riddled with uncertainty. The star player, Rooney, has gone from having a sulk every football season to a sulk every calendrical season and seems certain to have one fallout too many with Ferguson sooner rather than later. The fans have been replaced by consumers, people who see no contradiction in draping a green-and-gold scarf over a replica shirt and who seem to take their attitude from Nirvana: here we are now, entertain us. The wall of silence against Blackburn was a shocking nadir.

The Glazers are siphoning money in such staggering quantities that, in the past three years, United's net spend is lower than that of Hull City, Blackpool and Burnley. There are now rumours of a move for Frank Lampard and a return for Paul Scholes. Lampard, Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Michael Owen and Rio Ferdinand. All hail the geriátricos.

Then there is the manager. In terms of results, Ferguson has arguably never been better than in the past few years, manipulating limited resources and imposing his obscene will to stunning effect. Last season's title was almost entirely down to him. Ferguson is a miracle of longevity who has emerged triumphantly from deeper holes than this in the past, and may do so again. Yet all genius is finite. It is not just all political lives that end in failure.

Ferguson has looked weary in the past two games, slumped passively in his chair when before he would have prowled the touchline, liberally applying the fear of God. His often eccentric selections have started to verge on the wilfully perverse. He is also picking more fights than usual, almost bringing to mind the last days of Tony Montana and Tony Soprano as they burned bridges with humanity.

Ferguson often says nobody is bigger than the club, yet there are signs that he has started to believe in his own omnipotence. His greatest strength – the absolute conviction that no challenge is too great – may become his defining weakness. It's a textbook tragedy: a genius unwittingly presiding over the excruciatingly slow ruin of the empire he created. United may beat City on Sunday and go on to do the Double; it does not matter. There can be no happy ending here.

dom9 08-01-12 12:19 PM

Would you rather be a Liverpool fan or a united fan, if you were new to this and had to choose between the two for the first time?

wavydavy 08-01-12 12:55 PM

It's ironic how it's us LFC fans,who all got our PHDs in Economics in the H&G thread,who seem to know most about their precarious situation and have done for two or three years. Their fans seem oblivious to what's going on at their club IMO and seem to think it's all going to last forever.

Fivex 08-01-12 12:56 PM

Right now? Bearing in mind recent trophies and recent negativity towards our club, I'd guess at the scum.

spud_gun 08-01-12 01:07 PM

The Scholes move smacks of desperation

RedAndWhite 08-01-12 01:34 PM

I know a fairly intelligent (both footballing and acedemicly) Utd fan (they do exist -I swear) and he is dreading Whiskey Nose leaving as he can see the club imploding - his biggest fear is the power that Ferguson currently has in football as a whole will be gone and UTD will have to pay for his past deeds. Personally I hope he is right.

lucas 08-01-12 01:49 PM

I hope the referees remember what scholes said about his bad fouls during his career. How they were premeditated & were done to get revenge. He wasn't just a bad tackler just a dirty bastard.

Buzzo 08-01-12 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spud_gun (Post 2186804)
The Scholes move smacks of desperation

:handshake: Yep - they are obviously skint. Who is next, Bobby Charlton?

Exiled_red 08-01-12 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucas (Post 2186858)
I hope the referees remember what scholes said about his bad fouls during his career. How they were premeditated & were done to get revenge. He wasn't just a bad tackler just a dirty bastard.

:handshake:

peekay 08-01-12 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lackyboy (Post 2186627)
I think your right there Peekay, teams who acually attack utd and don't sit back, often come out with better results - especially at the moment with their makeshift defence. They do have quality throughout without question, but if some of the lesser teams had the mentality to go 35/65 instead of 20/80 in terms of attack, I think they may struggle. Utd seeem to enjoy teams parking the bus (as opposed to us!)

:handshake:

Neil Young 08-01-12 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lackyboy (Post 2186627)
I think your right there Peekay...

Quote:

Originally Posted by peekay (Post 2187024)
:handshake:

:shake:

peekay 08-01-12 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil Young (Post 2187170)
:shake:

:)

BigChief 08-01-12 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzzo (Post 2186860)
:handshake: Yep - they are obviously skint. Who is next, Bobby Charlton?

Chris Foy...on a free...salary paid by FA.

Phoenix07 06-02-12 12:00 PM

Munich 1958. RIP to those lost in the tragedy and peace to those affected to this very day.

Maxiedge 06-02-12 12:18 PM

:handshake: yep it was a terrible thing to happen. RIP

Shaggy 06-02-12 12:20 PM

Wonder if there'll be a silence at Anfield tonight? It's a shame but I imagine there won't be for fear of it being wrecked.

RIP the 23.

Mattshark 06-02-12 12:21 PM

RIP

I hope we can show respect for those who died tonight.

Nick77 06-02-12 03:36 PM

On another note - does anyone know the name of the commentator who refers to them as Manchunited? It's hilarious!!

Exiled_red 06-02-12 11:38 PM

Rest In Peace

Liverpel 07-02-12 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy (Post 2214617)
Wonder if there'll be a silence at Anfield tonight? It's a shame but I imagine there won't be for fear of it being wrecked.

RIP the 23.

There isn't usually a silence at any ground except Old Trafford, is there?


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