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-   -   Nat Phillips (https://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=91115)

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kev776 (Post 3711669)
If Kabak stays and we buy Konate, this could put Philips as 6th choice, why the fuck would he stay? He was on his way out with 3 CBs ahead of him, since then we will have bought 3 more, 2 of which will be ahead of him plus Davies.



Think there are more plusses to keeping Kabak than Phillips, as well as Phillips has done.

Kabak is something like three years younger, to my eyes his positioning is far far better when we do not have the ball and he gets drawn out of position far less when we are advancing as a unit. He is generally better on the ball and will play out from the back with short or long passes.

Phillips is a better blood and guts style defender and imho would better suit a team that plays in a more compact manner and that holds a deeper line than we or any of the other top teams tend to do.

I think Phillips could move to a team like Burnley and look excellent in that sort of set up as it would play to his strength and leave him less prone to being caught out by pace as there would be less space between the back line and the midfield line at that sort of club.

He has done well when called in, better than expected, but his value is now higher than it ever was and I would cash in unless he wanted to go back to being a 24 yo that plays ressie games instead of being a guy getting regular first team starts for a team. Those regular starts he is not getting for us next season once our starters are back in play. Someone like Kabak, being three years younger, might be better suited to being one of the back up CBs for another season or so as he has more time on his side.

kubrickscube 11-05-21 12:09 PM

I think you’re being unfair. Phillips has been consistently solid and come in from nowhere to hold down his place. With the fitness of Matip and Gomez so unstable, I’d be keeping him and Kabak, regardless of whether we get konate

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kubrickscube (Post 3711780)
I think you’re being unfair. Phillips has been consistently solid and come in from nowhere to hold down his place. With the fitness of Matip and Gomez so unstable, I’d be keeping him and Kabak, regardless of whether we get konate



Don't think I am being unfair really. I said I thought that Phillips has done well and has been much better than expected. I'm not slagging the guy off at all.

I just think his positioning is not great at all and he badly lacks pace in terms of being able to play well in a team that plays a high line.

I also think that at 24 he might be at a point in his career that he would want to become a first team regular rather than go back to being a ressie.

And me saying a team like Burnley would suit him is really not a knock on him either as I think he would be a great fit for a well drilled team that holds a compact shape and plays with two deep lines.

He is a player that I think would have the ability to carve out a decent career for himself away from Liverpool and become one of the main men at the back for a more defensive team. He could well go on to be a player like Coady at Wolves, not good enough for a team that has ambitions of doing well in the league and in Europe, but good enough to develop and shine at a team a level or two down from the title chasing teams.

I think if he does not go and we do not have a crisis at CB again next season, then he will go back to training with the first team and rarely getting minutes save for league cup games and the like and then he will be heading for 25 and only having a small number of career games to his name and the shine from this season having gone.

As things stand I reckon we could get the sort of transfer fee for him that would have been unimaginable last August, and his stock is up so the sort of club that might be in for him would be a lot beter than last August as well.

Charly 11-05-21 12:52 PM

As has been pointed out, we have too many foreign players in the squad. Im not sure the Kabak is any better positionally than Phillips. And being younger than Phillips is not a bonus in any way. Experience is more important than youth almost every time in that position. The other thing being he is still young enough to develop. I remember Carragher at a similar age was limited in a similar fashion (and his lack of ability far more exposed at fulback).

We might have to adapt the backline slightly if Phillips plays, but how many "slow" centrebacks have there been down the years that have done the job? I agree we need to bring a top centreback in. But if we keep Phillips (as we should) I dont see the point of keeping Kabak too (especially with the added transfer fee and wages).

I think the biggest problem is not knowing how fit the main 3 centrebacks are going to be next season. We are hampered by our financial situation. FSG may be inclined to pump in a bit of cash depending on where things stand with FFP. But if we have to spend within our means, it is likely we would need to sell someone if we were to bring in both Kabak and someone else at the back. I doubt there will be any takers for Matip (and I would be inclined to keep him as I think he is a fantastic player). Gomez is english, and leaves us in a similar problem with our foreign player limit. Obviously, they sell VVD over my twitching, urine stenched corpse.

I think a further problem is the rest of the team is looking slightly the worse for wear. We need someone who can carry the ball forward in midfield. We may also lose Wijnaldum. Keita and Ox are totally unreliable. Hendo has had another bad injury.

Then up front Mane is having a mare, and I have no idea what has happened to Firmino. The fear being the only reliable goalscorer in the entire squad may be enticed away.

And then of course the lack of cover at fullback, which i thin has been devastating, due to most of our assists coming from those areas, with both Trent and Robertson having had awful seasons by their own amazingly high standards (I get the feeling Robertson is running on fumes at the moment).

I think Klopp has a huge job on his hands. I am not sure how much of our problems are self inflicted due to our higher workrate over the preceeding seasons and comparitvely smaller squad (to City), or perhaps we are just unlucky. It must be hard to make plans without knowing who will be fit, especially when our budget is not going to be huge (especially if we are not in the champions league).

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charly (Post 3711786)
As has been pointed out, we have too many foreign players in the squad. Im not sure the Kabak is any better positionally than Phillips. And being younger than Phillips is not a bonus in any way. Experience is more important than youth almost every time in that position. The other thing being he is still young enough to develop. I remember Carragher at a similar age was limited in a similar fashion (and his lack of ability far more exposed at fulback).

We might have to adapt the backline slightly if Phillips plays, but how many "slow" centrebacks have there been down the years that have done the job? I agree we need to bring a top centreback in. But if we keep Phillips (as we should) I dont see the point of keeping Kabak too (especially with the added transfer fee and wages).

I think the biggest problem is not knowing how fit the main 3 centrebacks are going to be next season. We are hampered by our financial situation. FSG may be inclined to pump in a bit of cash depending on where things stand with FFP. But if we have to spend within our means, it is likely we would need to sell someone if we were to bring in both Kabak and someone else at the back. I doubt there will be any takers for Matip (and I would be inclined to keep him as I think he is a fantastic player). Gomez is english, and leaves us in a similar problem with our foreign player limit. Obviously, they sell VVD over my twitching, urine stenched corpse.

I think a further problem is the rest of the team is looking slightly the worse for wear. We need someone who can carry the ball forward in midfield. We may also lose Wijnaldum. Keita and Ox are totally unreliable. Hendo has had another bad injury.

Then up front Mane is having a mare, and I have no idea what has happened to Firmino. The fear being the only reliable goalscorer in the entire squad may be enticed away.

And then of course the lack of cover at fullback, which i thin has been devastating, due to most of our assists coming from those areas, with both Trent and Robertson having had awful seasons by their own amazingly high standards (I get the feeling Robertson is running on fumes at the moment).

I think Klopp has a huge job on his hands. I am not sure how much of our problems are self inflicted due to our higher workrate over the preceeding seasons and comparitvely smaller squad (to City), or perhaps we are just unlucky. It must be hard to make plans without knowing who will be fit, especially when our budget is not going to be huge (especially if we are not in the champions league).


If you are comparing Kabak and Phillips and saying experience is more important than age, then Phillips is by far the less experienced of the two despite being three years old.

Kabak has an awful lot more first team experience than Phillips and will be further along in his development at 21 than Phillips is at 24 as a result.


Phillips has 39 first team games to his name, taking into account playing for us and when he was out on loan along with zero international experience be it in the full England team, the u23s , U21s or U18s.


Kabak has 90 senior first team games to his name at club level. 40 of those in the Bundesliga and 9 in the Premier league. He is also a full Turkish international with 10 games for the Turkish national team along with 48 underage caps.



Comparing Carragher to Phillips at the same age is a total mismatch. Carragher at 24 had played in 221 first team games for Liverpool and was an established starter by then, a starter that had been part of the first team that won the FA cup, the UEFA cup, League cup and Super Cup.

Carragher at 20 is closer to Phillips at 24 in terms of experience.

But again I am not trying to knock Phillips, I just think he is not going to be difficult to replace if he wants to move on, and I do think he would not be played much at all if we do not have another CB crisis next season, and that is even before getting around to whether or not he is a good enough CB to play for a team that wants to compete for the PL or CL.


Also with regards to how many slow centre back have done the job for us over the years. Quite a few I will agree. But those that stand out the most in recent years played in teams managed by Benitez and Houllier. Two managers that generally set up their teams to play deeper than how Klopp tends to set up his teams.


Cannot disagree in the slightest with your comments about midfield, attack and fullback cover. Everything you said there is spot on imho, and we need to try to move on (in the next few transfer windows) as many of the players that do not contribute enough (be it on the pitch or through being out too often).

It is actually baffling how big a list of players one could make of players that we would not miss at all if they were gone in the morning, and that is even without touching on the permacrocks in the squad or the attackers whose form has dipped badly.

Charly 11-05-21 01:25 PM

So we agree on eveything except "Kabak v Phillips"?

Thats still enough for me to delare war upon you, sir!

I dont ever remember arguing this passionately about 4/5th choice centreback before.

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charly (Post 3711788)
So we agree on eveything except "Kabak v Phillips"?

Thats still enough for me to delare war upon you, sir!

I dont ever remember arguing this passionately about 4/5th choice centreback before.


Shows how stuck we are for something to debate about. :D


We also do not agree on Carragher being at Phillip's level, be it in terms of experience or abilitywise at the same age, so we have that too. :haha:



War it is. :rant:

Pablo 11-05-21 01:41 PM


frank the tank 11-05-21 02:20 PM

:haha:

frank the tank 11-05-21 02:29 PM

I think i would keep both Kabak and Phillips.......and buy Konate if possible.

All 3 players in front of them cannot be relied on to play every game. There is an argument that only one of them will start next season (hopefully Virgil) as having 2 defenders just back from injury is a huge risk.

Matip - if we could sell him, then I would. Simply because he can't be relied on to not have 4 or 5 niggling injuries over a season. But with the current pandemic, I can't see anyone even paying his wages let alone paying a transfer fee for him. Maybe someone like Palace will get desperate on deadline day, you never know.

Kabak - for a relatively low fee for a young player, plus the fact that Edwards will probably do a deal where we end up paying 12 quid a week for 45 years, then it is a low risk transfer. I wonder will Jurgen be honest with the player though - particularly if we are signing someone else like Konate - and tell him to go somewhere he would play all of the time. For me, he is the most likely not to be here next season. Although I would quite like to see him next to Virgil........he could be brilliant then.

Phillips - someone pointed out that he would be an ideal sub to bring on towards the end of games against the likes of Burnley. That is a really good point. I don't think he would play every week but with the cup games and possibly europa, then surely he should stay for that. Plus with the pandemic impacting transfer fees anyway, then it's unlikely that we would get a bumper offer for him. He could end up playing 10 to 15 games - or parts of games - next season, and his transfer value would increase anyway.

vlahka 11-05-21 03:28 PM

Phillips is great. Has zero fear and our best defender in the air. Not including broken players.

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vlahka (Post 3711804)
Phillips is great. Has zero fear and our best defender in the air. Not including broken players.



Might as well keep a war going on many fronts.............

He heads the ball like he has a 50p for a head :crackoff:

Pepe79 11-05-21 03:43 PM

He’s been pretty solid and he’s great in the air, but stylistically he’s a bit of a square peg for us. If we want to get back to anything like the levels of the past 3 years, we need players that really fit the system, even for back up CBs.

The club can’t pick and choose who they receive offers for. Anyone who’s not integral who actually receives an offer that can be used to reshape the squad should be considered for sale.

Irishnev 11-05-21 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious (Post 3711805)
Might as well keep a war going on many fronts.............

He heads the ball like he has a 50p for a head :crackoff:

Iíd come to your aid Jaco but my self imposed ban on Liverpool related football topics is stopping me :haha: - havenít watched the last 2 games and will give the rest a miss. We finish where we finish and then will see after that :handshake:

Jaco_Pastorious 11-05-21 04:57 PM



Could not find the clip of Mickey I wanted, so this will suffice.

baitman 13-05-21 11:56 PM

If only some of our superstars would play with the heart of this lad :rock:

Kenneth 14-05-21 12:28 AM

Probably best to leave it to the players.

SB 14-05-21 08:13 AM

Pleased for him that he got the assist after looking very hungry after the OG

Jaco_Pastorious 14-05-21 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB (Post 3712607)
Pleased for him that he got the assist after looking very hungry after the OG



He reacted brilliantly to the OG. Totally fired him up and his head did not drop even a little bit.

Charly 14-05-21 10:31 AM

Yes.... Yes!!!

Jaco_Pastorious 14-05-21 10:39 AM

I disagree with the fact you are agreeing with me :crackoff:

Tribute 14-05-21 01:34 PM

...loved his post match interview last night - very honest and candid but equally very obvious that he heads the ball much more than any other player...

McDermotX 14-05-21 01:38 PM

I can see it now......



Palace game. Last 5mins of the match. Fans in the ground. 0-0. Set-piece to us. Trent on the ball.

Phillips.................







In fact, get your money on !

Jaco_Pastorious 14-05-21 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribute (Post 3712748)
...loved his post match interview last night - very honest and candid but equally very obvious that he heads the ball much more than any other player...


:haha: You are Alan Hansen and I claim my £5

SB 14-05-21 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious (Post 3712665)
He reacted brilliantly to the OG. Totally fired him up and his head did not drop even a little bit.

Yeah 100%. That shows character & youíve either got it or you havenít. The more I see of him the more I think thereís a place for him. Heís still relatively young for a CB

Slinky Skills 14-05-21 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SB (Post 3712816)
Yeah 100%. That shows character & youíve either got it or you havenít. The more I see of him the more I think thereís a place for him. Heís still relatively young for a CB

:handshake:

It's going to be a brilliant celebration when he gets his first goal at Anfield!

baitman 15-05-21 04:03 AM

Cult hero :chin:

Jaco_Pastorious 15-05-21 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slinky Skills (Post 3712820)
:handshake:

It's going to be a brilliant celebration when he gets his first goal at Anfield!



As long as we beat the team he plays for, I would not begrudge him a consolation goal :crackoff:

SB 16-05-21 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slinky Skills (Post 3712820)
:handshake:

It's going to be a brilliant celebration when he gets his first goal at Anfield!

I just hope itís in front of a full Kop

Shaggy 17-05-21 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul12 (Post 3711696)
I know Kabak is cheap but do you actually think he suits our style of defence?

Personally I think Phillips has done better so if we are to keep one I'd keep him unless we think we can sell him for more than £18m, which I suspect is unlikely this summer.

People keep citing Kabak's lack of pace as a reason to not sign him and that he doesn't suit our style of defending, but Matip isn't quick? Lovren wasn't quick?

I reckon we could get £10m for Big Nat, from someone like Palace.

Jaco_Pastorious 17-05-21 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy (Post 3713561)
People keep citing Kabak's lack of pace as a reason to not sign him and that he doesn't suit our style of defending, but Matip isn't quick? Lovren wasn't quick?

I reckon we could get £10m for Big Nat, from someone like Palace.


Have a suspicion we could get a little bit more than that from a Burnley/Palace/Wolves. Would not shock me to see him go for 15m or even a tiny bit more tbh.

Him going going out and Kabak coming in for the same money would not be such a shock.

Fredo 17-05-21 05:21 PM

Nat Phillips
 
Anyone seen him missing a header yesterday? Think it was at some point in the first half, an innocuous punt forward from West Brom and he completely missed it and a massive scramble ensued when Trent saved our arses.

Fivex 17-05-21 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy (Post 3713561)
People keep citing Kabak's lack of pace as a reason to not sign him and that he doesn't suit our style of defending, but Matip isn't quick? Lovren wasn't quick?



I reckon we could get £10m for Big Nat, from someone like Palace.



Reckon we might be in the £15m + sell on bracket now..

Paul12 17-05-21 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy (Post 3713561)
People keep citing Kabak's lack of pace as a reason to not sign him and that he doesn't suit our style of defending, but ...Lovren wasn't quick?

Rather proofs the point doesn't it?

I think Matip is not slow.

Paul12 17-05-21 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredo (Post 3713589)
Anyone seen him missing a header yesterday? Think it was at some point in the first half, an innocuous punt forward from West Brom and he completely missed it and a massive scramble ensued when Trent saved our arses.

Yes I did. And someone made a comment about his heading style being like he is heading a coin. I was reminded about that by his performance yesterday, which I thought was his worst performance for a while.

baitman 17-05-21 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul12 (Post 3713611)
Rather proofs the point doesn't it?

I think Matip is not slow.

Is that a jenkins'ism :chin:

Charly 19-05-21 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious (Post 3711789)





War it is. :rant:

I am willing to accept your surrender now?

The_weatherman 19-05-21 10:08 PM

Impossible not to like this guy :rock:

danperkins 19-05-21 10:10 PM

Beast tonight

Exiled_red 19-05-21 10:13 PM

Great performance today. Good to see him get his first goal :rock:


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