Hillsborough - Page 12

Chazza · 13-09-12, 10:50 AM

Sir Norman Bettison has 'nothing to hide'
Sir Norman Bettison, chief constable of West Yorkshire Police, who was involved in the South Yorkshire Police investigation after the Hillsborough disaster, said:

“I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known because I have absolutely nothing to hide.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Oliver Kay ‏@OliverKayTimes
I'm assured David Bernstein will apologise for the FA's mistakes over Hillsborough in a broadcast interview later today. That's a relief

Imy · 13-09-12, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This is some read. Harrowing stuff.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....0001100001.pdf

I don't know what to say, heartbreaking

Gingawaria · 13-09-12, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This is some read. Harrowing stuff.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....0001100001.pdf

Bloody hell...that's horrific.

Felt sick reading most of it.

Eric Swindler · 13-09-12, 11:00 AM

Apologies are worthless at this stage. After all, the 'guilty' parties have little choice but to apologise given the weight of damning information that has now come to public light.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 11:02 AM

Quote:

DEFIANT former Merseyside police chief constable Norman Bettison today said fans’ behaviour at the Hillsborough disaster made the job of the police harder than it needed to be.

In a lenghty statement he said he accepted that the main reason for the tragedy that claimed 96 lives was a lack of police control.

But he added: “Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be.

“But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.”

Mr Bettison worked for South Yorkshire Police at the time of the tragedy and was involved in the force’s response to the disaster.

Liverpool MP Maria Eagle accused Mr Bettison in Parliament in 1998 of being part of a “black propaganda unit” that smeared Liverpool fans.

Today she added her voice to that of Trevor Hicks, of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, in calling for Mr Bettison to resign.

In a lengthy statement he defended his actions and made clear he will not resign as chief constable of West Yorkshire Police.

His statement said: “The more we learn about events, the more we may understand. I sat through every single day of the Taylor Inquiry, in the summer of 1989. I learned so much.

"Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control. Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.

“I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private.

“It is against that backcloth that any documents with my name attached, out of the 400,000 revealed, must be seen. For example, the reference to preparation for the contributions hearing (the Court case to recover contributions to damages from Sheffield Wednesday Football Club and the stadium engineers who were also found, by Taylor, to be at fault) was to position South Yorkshire Police’s liability against the Football Club, the stadium engineers and the Council which issued a defective safety certificate it was NOT to apportion any blame whatsoever to the fans.

“In the absence of all the facts, I was called upon to resign 14 years ago, when I became the Chief Constable of Merseyside. I really welcome the disclosure of all the facts that can be known about the Hillsborough tragedy because I have absolutely nothing to hide. I read the 395 page report from cover to cover last night and that remains my position.

"The panel, in my view, has produced a piece of work that will stand the test of time and scrutiny. Whilst not wishing to become a conducting rod for all the genuine and justified hurt and anguish, I would invite anyone to do the same as me and read the document and the papers online. They document, in detail, my personal actions in respect of the Hillsborough tragedy, which were, in summary, as follows:-

“I purchased a ticket and was an off-duty spectator at the match. As soon as I realised the unfolding tragedy, I put myself on duty, giving immediate assistance behind the south stand. I later set up a receiving centre, at a local police station, for supporters who had become separated from friends and family (see my contemporaneous statement on line).

“In 1989, I was a Chief Inspector in a non-operational role at Headquarters. Four days after the disaster (and after all the vile newspaper coverage had been written) I was one of several officers pulled together by the then Deputy Chief Constable, Peter Hays, to support him in piecing together what had taken place at the event.

“By that time, the Chief Constable, Peter Wright, had handed over the formal investigation of the tragedy to an independent Police Force, West Midlands Police. It was West Midlands Police that presented evidence before the Taylor Inquiry. The South Yorkshire Deputy Chief Constable’s team, under the leadership of Chief Superintendent Wain, was a parallel activity to inform Chief Officers of facts rather than rely on the speculation rampant at that time.

"Another team was later created (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report pages 54 and 55; page 186 (particularly para 2.6.35 which distinguishes the two separate teams; and page 319), to work with the solicitors who were representing South Yorkshire Police at the Taylor Inquiry, to vet statements from South Yorkshire Police Officers that were intended to be presented to the Inquiry (see Hillsborough Independent Panel Report Part 2, Chapter 11). I was not a member of that team. I never altered a statement nor asked for one to be altered. Two South Yorkshire Police teams have been conflated in the minds of some commentators.

"I subsequently sat through each day of the Taylor Inquiry, briefing the South Yorkshire Chief Constable and Deputy Chief Constable on a regular basis. These briefings acknowledged and accepted the responsibility of the Force in the disaster. The evidence was overwhelming.

"Shortly after the conclusion of the Taylor Inquiry, I was posted to other duties. I had nothing further to do with the subsequent Coroners Inquests and proceedings, other than occasional advice because of my knowledge of the evidence presented to the Taylor Inquiry."

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...52-31827718/2/

Gingawaria · 13-09-12, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Swindler

Apologies are worthless at this stage. After all, the 'guilty' parties have little choice but to apologise given the weight of damning information that has now come to public light.

I wouldn't say they're worthless, they're 23 years too late but an apology is acknowledgement that there has been wrongdoing. What happens next is the question?

Gingawaria · 13-09-12, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liver...52-31827718/2/

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Mayor of London Boris Johnson has said he was "very, very sorry" for comments he made in a 2004 article about Liverpool fans being partly to blame for the Hillsborough disaster.

Chris · 13-09-12, 11:07 AM

Bettison as self serving and repulsive as ever I see.

DeanoUK · 13-09-12, 11:13 AM

Johnson can fuck off, there was no excuse for what he said and he's been trying to grovel ever since it back fired on him. Useless self-serving elitist tory cunt.

Lee · 13-09-12, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This is some read. Harrowing stuff.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....0001100001.pdf

Wow, just read all of this. Terrible. The poor girl who died next to him... you can't imagine that.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

Wow, just read all of this. Terrible. The poor girl who died next to him... you can't imagine that.

The girl, the young lad they found under their feet. Just devastating. I'd love to know if he ever found his mate alive.

Eric Swindler · 13-09-12, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gingawaria

I wouldn't say they're worthless, they're 23 years too late but an apology is acknowledgement that there has been wrongdoing. What happens next is the question?

Well the way I see it, they all already knew there was wrongdoing and for some considerable length of time. Maybe 'hollow' is a better way of describing the apologies.

Lee · 13-09-12, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The girl, the young lad they found under their feet. Just devastating. I'd love to know if he ever found his mate alive.

I did wonder that too.

I'm presuming they found him with what the family said at the end, and there was no mention about his mate passing away. Hopefully he made his own way home and all was well.

Puts you right into his mind though - things you don't really think about like trying to get himself on camera to get a message to his family, or trying to find a phone to let people know that he's okay.

Absolute nightmare.

Pablo · 13-09-12, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This is some read. Harrowing stuff.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....0001100001.pdf

Just finished reading it in work, and barely managed to hold back the tears. Unimaginably sickening, the most painful thing I've ever had to read

Tee · 13-09-12, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeanoUK

Johnson can fuck off, there was no excuse for what he said and he's been trying to grovel ever since it back fired on him. Useless self-serving elitist tory cunt.

I met him a few years ago and pulled him up about that remark. He mumbled some shit and made a sheepish escape. Foul breath cunt.

baitman · 13-09-12, 11:44 AM

there will be plenty of arse covering attempts going on by many of the people involved at the time... there is still plenty to uncover. not much of a paper trail seems to go back directly to thatcher, so far...
im sure that nothing went on without her knowledge and approval

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19584313

Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw has said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up.

An independent report accused the South Yorkshire Police of deflecting blame for the disaster on to innocent fans.

But Labour's Mr Straw said the then Conservative government was complicit because they needed "partisan" support from the police.

Senior Conservatives dismissed the claims as "very silly" and "wrong".

Mr Straw said that it was "a matter of great regret" to him that Labour had not ensured that the disaster had been investigated thoroughly enough earlier in its time in office, between 1997 and 2010.

But he also told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "The Thatcher government, because they needed the police to be a partisan force, particularly for the miners strike and other industrial troubles, created a culture of impunity in the police service.

"They really were immune from outside influences and they thought they could rule the roost and that is what we absolutely saw in south Yorkshire."

Mellor 'disappointed'
But Lord Tebbit, one of Baroness Thatcher's closest political allies, said Mr Straw's remarks were "just very, very silly".

It was "nonsense" to claim that the Thatcher government was ready to turn a blind eye to police conduct, he said.

David Mellor, another former Conservative cabinet minister, said Mr Straw's remarks were "wrong" and "disappointing".

Ninety-six Liverpool fans died after a crush on overcrowded terraces at Sheffield Wednesday's ground during the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest in April 1989.

An independent report found some of the 96 might have been saved and said police had changed witness statements to blame Liverpool fans for the disaster.

The report was compiled by the Hillsborough Independent Panel, which had scrutinised more than 450,000 pages of documents over the past 18 months.

Following its publication, David Cameron apologised to victims' families for the "double injustice", which he said was both in the "failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth", and in the efforts to denigrate the deceased and suggest that they were "somehow at fault for their own deaths"

Lecter · 13-09-12, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Swindler

Apologies are worthless at this stage. After all, the 'guilty' parties have little choice but to apologise given the weight of damning information that has now come to public light.

The vast bulk of the apologies have come from institutions that have no resemblance to what they were 23 years ago

We've seen precious little in the way of apologies from the individuals who were running those or even working for those institutions when the disaster took place

They are the ones with the most culpability in all this and the least amount of contrition

Lecter · 13-09-12, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baitman

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-19584313

Ex-Home Secretary Jack Straw has said Margaret Thatcher's government created a "culture of impunity" in the police that led to the Hillsborough cover-up.

Jack Straw can fuck off as well as far as I am concerned, he did nothing to help the families whatsoever during his time in office

Successive governments failed the families and people of Liverpool, they were all complicit in keeping the truth out of the public domain

There is absolutely no hiding from that

Lecter · 13-09-12, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

This is some read. Harrowing stuff.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov....0001100001.pdf

Terrifying reading that

Brings back so many bad memories

kev776 · 13-09-12, 12:00 PM

Grim reading, words fail me. Many people should face manslaughter charges, I won't hold my breath waiting for the charges to be brought though.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 12:11 PM

http://inspectorgadget.wordpress.com...-fed-chairman/

A Message from Paul McKeever (Police Fed Chairman)

Quote:

I’m sorry for Hillsborough

September 13, 2012 by inspectorgadget

I once heard a Townsend-Thoresen employee apologise for the Herald of Free Enterprise disaster. He wasn’t on board but felt tainted by the mistakes. I now know what he meant.

I know nothing about Hillsborough except what I have read and seen over the last few days.

Knowing nothing about it, and being surprised at the widely reported allegation that senior police officers changed or amended statements made by junior staff, all be it on legal advice from solicitors, I can only watch with interest as the story unfolds.

As a junior police officer, that is to say not part of the local or national Senior Management Team or Command Team, but subject to their whims on a daily basis, I would like a forensic examination of every senior police officer who ordered anything illegal or immoral on that day, and during any subsequent cover-up.

Many of these senior officers are now even more senior, and are currently squatting in local police forces around the country.

I have no idea if we have one at Ruralshire Constabulary.

As a serving police officer, despite never having served in South Yorkshire Police, I am sorry for what happened. Not sorry because I was there or even know anyone who was there, but sorry for being part of an organisation with such a horrible history in that regard. If it is of any use to victims families at all, I am confident that these days, junior staff on the frontline (From PC to Inspector) know far more about how to save lives, and we do so here on my patch on a regular basis, all be it on a smaller scale.

My experience of Ruralshire Ambulance Service junior staff is that they are also totally dedicated to saving lives and behaving properly in all circumstances.

I can also totally assure you that if anyone ever tried to amend a statement of mine, and I heard about it, I would take immediate action via PSD, the IPCC, HMIC, HM Coroner, a Magistrate or wherever I had to go to do so. I know that the people I work with would say the same.

Alex · 13-09-12, 12:13 PM

Quote:

and are currently squatting in local police forces around the country.

Powerful line.

baitman · 13-09-12, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lecter

Jack Straw can fuck off as well as far as I am concerned, he did nothing to help the families whatsoever during his time in office

Successive governments failed the families and people of Liverpool, they were all complicit in keeping the truth out of the public domain

There is absolutely no hiding from that

thats almost certainly correct. anything that helps open these buried files is a positive, even if its old labour mp's trying to score some political points off the tories, not that i agree with the pettiness of that in the light of the Hillsborough tragedy

in time we all hope that the ones who were directly responsible in creating the cover up are brought to justice. we might also hope that others who were complicit in knowing what had happened and chose not to do the decent thing will also be outed.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Dan Roan ‏@danroan
BREAKING FA Chairman apologises: "We are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a stadium the FA selected...I offer a full apology.."

ChesterDave · 13-09-12, 12:41 PM

R&S Alliance, I hope they are forced to handover the documents on new criminal charges the fucking weasels. Bettison will surely go after that statement. Fans not to blame but.... Twat.

I kind of hope the threat of legal action drags on for a while before justice is exacted. All those with culpability having sleepless nights wondering when the knock at the door will come. Manslaughter charges, perjury, defamation. A lot of people with a lot to fear

baitman · 13-09-12, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChesterDave

...All those with culpability having sleepless nights wondering when the knock at the door will come. Manslaughter charges, perjury, defamation. A lot of people with a lot to fear

lets hope b and q will be sold out of rope as these bastards go and hang themselves somewhere quiet

Mostar · 13-09-12, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muddled

That FA statement is awful; lip service, followed by how helpful they have been and concluded with how things are better now.

They should be ashamed for posting that. Absolutely no accountability in that response. None.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

I'd recommend everyone reads this, no matter how difficult it is.

Incredibly difficult read.

meffin · 13-09-12, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

The girl, the young lad they found under their feet. Just devastating. I'd love to know if he ever found his mate alive.

I presmd he survived as there's no mention of him dying or it being in memory of him. Wonder who the girl and young lad were?

Helios Creed · 13-09-12, 12:54 PM

what makes me sick is that if there had been anyone rich, poerful or famous's kids killed then this would have all come out 20 years ago instead of people being lied to and kept in the dark about what happened to their children

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 12:55 PM

Over the years I've read a great deal about April 15th 1989, but last night I saw some pictures that I don't think I'd never seen before. Pictures of the crush. Truly horrific, so horrific that the images haunted me until I eventually got to sleep. I don't know why I posted this.

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 01:01 PM

HILLSBOROUGH; 1981 SPURS DISASTER NARROWLY AVOIDED.

Most people know that in 1989, 96 Liverpool supporters lost their lives in a terrible human crush at the Hillsborough stadium in Sheffield during an F.A. Cup semi-final match versus Nottingham Forest. You can read more about the 1989 disaster here.

What many people don’t know however is that disaster nearly struck eight years earlier, at the same ground, in the same round, of the same cup competition. That year it was Tottenham Hotspur and Wolverhampton Wanderers who travelled to the Hillsborough stadium, and it was the Spurs fans who were allocated the smaller, problematic Leppings lane end of the ground. There were broken limbs and other injuries sustained that day in 1981, but thankfully no fatalities largely due to the fact that the police opened up pitch-side gates as the crushing became apparent. If only they had done that in 1989.

As a part of the filming of my Hillsborough Disaster documentary, I met with a Spurs fan who was at Hillsborough that day in 1981, and he told me his story, You can also see the video he put together here which shows the Spurs fans spilling onto the pitch as play continues.

Here is a short clip taken from my longer interview with Neil Irving that will appear in the documentary:

Had the South Yorkshire Police not opened the perimeter gates that day, and let over 500 Spurs fans escape onto the pitch (click to watch video) then there could well have been a Hillsborough disaster eight years before the one in 1989.

I am due to meet with other fans from other teams who also had a terrible experience of the Leppings Lane terracing, and more details on that will follow.

So why was it OK to open the gates in 1981, but not in 1989?

Shaggy · 13-09-12, 01:02 PM

Hillsborough 1981 - Wolves v Tottenham Hotspur (FA CUP S/F) - YouTube

Fosterbloke · 13-09-12, 01:02 PM

Where the fuck did you see them? Please tell me it wasn't some shitty online newspaper?

Lecter · 13-09-12, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChesterDave

R&S Alliance, I hope they are forced to handover the documents on new criminal charges the fucking weasels. Bettison will surely go after that statement. Fans not to blame but.... Twat.

I kind of hope the threat of legal action drags on for a while before justice is exacted. All those with culpability having sleepless nights wondering when the knock at the door will come. Manslaughter charges, perjury, defamation. A lot of people with a lot to fear

It would be nice to have them looking over their shoulder but for the sake of the families justice has to be swift

None of those cunts in charge that day have had sleepless nights so far lets not kid ourselves so it would be good for them to suffer

I wonder about the humanity of some of those people

I'd find it hard to live just knowing I fucked up that day but to compound the situation by then lying to cover your own failings is fucking mind-blowing in the extreme and shows the levels they will stoop to

Any police who are found guilty and who have subsequently retired or been pensioned off should have those pensions revoked

Duckenfield took the piss, retiring on ill-health to dodge internal investigation

Its an absolute fucking joke

Liverpool · 13-09-12, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Over the years I've read a great deal about April 15th 1989, but last night I saw some pictures that I don't think I'd never seen before. Pictures of the crush. Truly horrific, so horrific that the images haunted me until I eventually got to sleep. I don't know why I posted this.

I wonder what happened to the people in the pictures

Galb · 13-09-12, 01:05 PM

How can that Bettison guy stay on? Bad enough what he did but these comments in his statement today are outrageous:

""Taylor was right in saying that the disaster was caused, mainly, through a lack of police control. Fans behaviour, to the extent that it was relevant at all, made the job of the police, in the crush outside Leppings Lane turnstiles, harder than it needed to be. But it didn’t cause the disaster any more than the sunny day that encouraged people to linger outside the stadium as kick off approached.

“I held those views then, I hold them now. I have never, since hearing the Taylor evidence unfold, offered any other interpretation in public or private."

Still spinning, still dissembling, still 'mentioning' how the fans "made the job of the police .. harder than it needed to be".

Still lying.

Lecter · 13-09-12, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaggy

Over the years I've read a great deal about April 15th 1989, but last night I saw some pictures that I don't think I'd never seen before. Pictures of the crush. Truly horrific, so horrific that the images haunted me until I eventually got to sleep. I don't know why I posted this.

Theres things from that day I've never seen that have been shown in the last few days

One thing that really sticks in my mind was whilst the fans were spilling out over on to the pitch the police formed a line on the halfway line to stop our fans going up the pitch towards the Forest fans

They stood unmoving for sometime (the Forest fans were booing at the time) it might have only been a minute or so but it seemed like ages

A few fans charged the police line but pulled up short and one man went and spoke with an officer, immediately a gap appeared in the line and the fans charged towards the Forest end to get the hoardings

The Forest fans were baying until the LFC fans started ripping off the hoardings and charging back down the field, then the Forest fans broke into applause and continued to applaud

The other night I saw some of that footage for the first time since that day

Alex · 13-09-12, 01:19 PM

Yesterday they had Grobbelaar on 5Live, and he was recounting hearing the fans screaming at him 'They're killing us Bruce'

That man has to carry those four words around for the rest of his life. Everything I hear from the day gets me more upset.