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Old 10-11-19, 12:23 PM   #401
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The Sheffield United one took three and a half minutes to show depending on frame rates a toe might have been offside. Hardly “clear and obvious"
And the goal came 2 phases after the ‘offside’.
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Old 10-11-19, 12:36 PM   #402
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These VAR lines are right confusing, cos perspective and all, but I don't think there was as much wrong with that one as the twitteratzi make out.
There’s no way those lines are accurate in such tight calls. We already know the frame rates mean the replays are only accurate to about 20cm. So anything like this which can only be a few millimetres either way, is just guesswork.

To the naked eye, he is onside, as was Firmino, Sterling, etc. Unless the replay shows an obvious offside, the goal should be allowed to stand.

3 mins 47 seconds to come to that decision
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Old 10-11-19, 03:07 PM   #403
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There’s no way those lines are accurate in such tight calls. We already know the frame rates mean the replays are only accurate to about 20cm. So anything like this which can only be a few millimetres either way, is just guesswork.

To the naked eye, he is onside, as was Firmino, Sterling, etc. Unless the replay shows an obvious offside, the goal should be allowed to stand.

3 mins 47 seconds to come to that decision

I've been saying this for a while and have been surprised that so few pundits and journalists have been discussing it. They discussed it on Sunday supplement today though, so maybe people are starting to become aware.
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Old 10-11-19, 03:25 PM   #404
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Ball can't touch your hand in the attacking phase or it's disallowed ala Mane at Old Trafford.

Unless its Man Utd scoring the goal then it's perfectly fine and allowed to stand.
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Old 10-11-19, 05:38 PM   #405
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Old 10-11-19, 06:42 PM   #406
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Old 11-11-19, 04:28 PM   #407
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I wonder how the mob brigade are feeling about VAR today?
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Old 11-11-19, 04:43 PM   #408
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Still shit
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Old 11-11-19, 04:51 PM   #409
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Still shit
Oh come on Dom. You'll come round eventually and I promise not to drag up any old quotes in this thread
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Old 11-11-19, 04:54 PM   #410
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Oh come on Dom. You'll come round eventually and I promise not to drag up any old quotes in this thread
I've already said the principle is a good one but the implementation is cack handed. Whether it helps us or not is irrelevant really.
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Old 11-11-19, 05:08 PM   #411
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I've already said the principle is a good one but the implementation is cack handed. Whether it helps us or not is irrelevant really.
Implementation will get better. They've already said that ref will check monitor now. I don't watch other European leagues but they've got a better grasp of it by all accounts so there's at least a blueprint to follow (even though the PL wanted to have their own version which surpassed their European counterparts).
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Old 11-11-19, 05:13 PM   #412
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Implementation will get better. They've already said that ref will check monitor now. I don't watch other European leagues but they've got a better grasp of it by all accounts so there's at least a blueprint to follow (even though the PL wanted to have their own version which surpassed their European counterparts).
They allegedly said that refs would check the monitors before the weekend. Did you see it happen?

I've also said before that it's likely to improve. God knows when though, there are a lot of changes they need to make to the process.

But as it stands, the thing is a big bag of wank.
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Old 11-11-19, 06:02 PM   #413
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Simple changes that would make it better.

1. Time off. When a VAR decision is being decided stop the match clock.
2. Vocal. Include the voice of both the ref and the VAR ref in the decision. Having the refs mic’d Would improve football and stop a lot of the harassment of referees.
3. Ideally play the incident in the stadium.
4. Get the ref to spell out his thinking verbally when making his ruling.

All of this gives the power to the ref using the VAR as assistance. VAR can interject if it sees something that the refs may have missed.

All of this happens in Rugby. In Rugby each match has a TMO who O believe is situated within the stadium. None of this Stockley Park bollocks.

There are better examples, but look how clear this decision is and how well communicated the decision is. In stadium you can buy an earpiece that lets you hear the ref throughout the match.

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Old 11-11-19, 06:46 PM   #414
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Simple changes that would make it better.

1. Time off. When a VAR decision is being decided stop the match clock.
2. Vocal. Include the voice of both the ref and the VAR ref in the decision. Having the refs mic’d Would improve football and stop a lot of the harassment of referees.
3. Ideally play the incident in the stadium.
4. Get the ref to spell out his thinking verbally when making his ruling.

All of this gives the power to the ref using the VAR as assistance. VAR can interject if it sees something that the refs may have missed.

All of this happens in Rugby. In Rugby each match has a TMO who O believe is situated within the stadium. None of this Stockley Park bollocks.

There are better examples, but look how clear this decision is and how well communicated the decision is. In stadium you can buy an earpiece that lets you hear the ref throughout the match.

Try disallowed by TMO & Ref as Nick Easter obstructs - Wales v England, 06th Feb 2015 - YouTube
Re point 1, they don't seem to add the VAR time on at the end of the half as far as I can tell. Which is completely baffling.
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Old 11-11-19, 06:53 PM   #415
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Re point 1, they don't seem to add the VAR time on at the end of the half as far as I can tell. Which is completely baffling.
It’s so random. Just stop the clock FFS. Same with injury. It’s far too much for a referee to remember.
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Old 11-11-19, 07:17 PM   #416
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It’s so random. Just stop the clock FFS. Same with injury. It’s far too much for a referee to remember.
I'd like to see that, similar to rugby, so that when 90 mins is reached, that's it, end of that phase of play and the whistle goes. Would get rid of all ambiguity, all "added time in added time" crap.
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Old 11-11-19, 07:23 PM   #417
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But it would reward time wasters
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Old 11-11-19, 07:33 PM   #418
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VAR chief Neil Swarbrick marks new system as 'seven out of 10' despite criticism - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50380641




The use of video assistant referees (VAR) in Premier League games has been given a mark of seven out of 10 by the man in charge despite strong criticism.

Neil Swarbrick says VAR will evolve and asked for fans to be patient after another weekend of controversy.

Sheffield United had a goal ruled out for a marginal offside at Spurs while Manchester City saw two penalty appeals for handball turned down at Liverpool.

"I'm really pleased, honestly, with how we have started out," said Swarbrick.

VAR was introduced in the Premier League this season after trials in the Carabao Cup and FA Cup, but it has angered fans who cite inconsistencies in decision-making and say the time it takes for rulings to be made kills the passion and excitement of games.

Former Manchester City and England winger Trevor Sinclair believes it is is damaging the Premier League's brand and reputation, and could even cause the best managers and players to leave.

Asked how he would rate the introduction of VAR out of 10, Swarbrick, the Premier League referees' lead on VAR, told BBC Sport: "I'd give us around about seven-ish.

"We have more decisions correct with VAR than without it. If the mark now is seven - early days - in two years' time I'm hoping for maybe a eight and a half or nine.

"We are open to evolving with this - it's not a case of we're not budging. We will listen to feedback and where we can improve things, we will do."

It is understood the accuracy of decision making around key incidents, such as goals, red cards and penalties, has increased from 82% last season to above 90% this term.

Referees' chief Mike Riley is expected to give an update on how the introduction of VAR has gone in a briefing to all 20 top-flight clubs at a meeting in central London on Thursday.

"I'm comfortable with where we are but there's no doubt there's room for improvement. It's a work in progress," said Swarbrick.

BBC Match of the Day presenter Gary Lineker has suggested there should be a time limit of between 30 seconds and a minute for VAR decisions - otherwise, the time taken would indicate it is not a clear and obvious error which needs correcting.

"I can understand what he is saying but I don't think you can go down that line and say anything over a minute, we can't look at," he said.

"What would happen if you're coming to a decision after one minute and two seconds and it's the right decision but you're not taking the right decision because you're two seconds over."

How are referees dealing with the furore?
A weekend of Premier League action has yet to pass without VAR being debated by fans and trending on social media.

It is a tough job for officials but they are equipped to cope with the criticism, said Swarbrick.

"It's hard to put into words the pressure you feel as a VAR when you're behind the screen," he said.

"When we brought the media in for demonstrations, and we gave them clips to look at with no pressure on them to view these incidents, they said this is really hard.

"When I was refereeing there were incidents where the referee would get criticised. It's nothing new to us, it's part of our fabric, our make-up, it's what we're kind of used to and we are very resilient in that way.

"We take criticism on board. The criticism comes from people's opinions. I could look at an incident where I haven't given a penalty and be quite comfortable with that. Yet everyone could be criticising me. It's all about perspective."

Premier League stats on VAR
After 12 match rounds, there have been around 800 checks and 29 overturned decisions.
Average of around six checks per game, and an overturned decision once every four games.
The delay for an overturned decision is around one minute 15 seconds on average.
Average delay for a check is around 30 seconds.


Q&A: VAR chief on big talking points
Communication: Shown an example of a clear decision broadcast to players and fans in rugby union, he said: "It took rugby union six or seven years to get to that position. That doesn't happen overnight. You've just got to give us time."
Broadcasting decisions: Could fans watch or listen to VAR decisions, as in rugby or cricket? "You cannot use any referee communications like that because IFAB (football's lawmakers) protocols don't allow us to."
Offside: Swarbrick said the one-pixel lines used by VAR were magnified for TV broadcast which could make decisions seem more marginal than they are. "We are held by the laws of the game. Once we have made that decision with the lines, there's no interpretation, no tolerance band. It's either onside or offside."
Pitchside monitors: Referees in the Premier League have not tended to use the review screens. Will that change? "Quite possibly it will do. At the moment, the feedback we are getting back from the clubs, managers, players etc is they are quite comfortable in how we are operating."
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Old 11-11-19, 07:47 PM   #419
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But it would reward time wasters
No it wouldn’t. Quite the opposite. The clock goes off so time can’t be wasted. If someone goes down and starts rolling abou the ref just stops the clock.
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Old 11-11-19, 08:55 PM   #420
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Simple changes that would make it better.

1. Time off. When a VAR decision is being decided stop the match clock.
2. Vocal. Include the voice of both the ref and the VAR ref in the decision. Having the refs mic’d Would improve football and stop a lot of the harassment of referees.
3. Ideally play the incident in the stadium.
4. Get the ref to spell out his thinking verbally when making his ruling.

All of this gives the power to the ref using the VAR as assistance. VAR can interject if it sees something that the refs may have missed.

All of this happens in Rugby. In Rugby each match has a TMO who O believe is situated within the stadium. None of this Stockley Park bollocks.

There are better examples, but look how clear this decision is and how well communicated the decision is. In stadium you can buy an earpiece that lets you hear the ref throughout the match.


The TMO thing works so smoothly in rugby I really can't see why it can't just be transferred over to football.

I've no idea who set the parameters for the PL or how they were agreed but they're beyond ridiculous - or their interpretation is.

Perhaps Mike Riley is the reason
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Old 12-11-19, 01:38 AM   #421
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Bad on the article on the BBC website any listening in on audio conversations just isn't allowed by rules of the game so hands are tied on that.

I see a lot of pundits complaining that the ref doesn't use the pitch side monitors but also complain about the time it takes to make a decision. Using the pitch side monitors will make the process even longer. The VAR refs are refs and are qualified to make a decision.

According to the same article above the head of VAR says the offside decisions are much clearer than they appear in the images used by TV and he says in this case their is no margin for opinion by the ref. It's offside or its not.

I very rarely listen to the 5 live phone in but I listened to the podcast today and everyone was agreeing the TAA handball was a handball,even almost every Liverpool fan.

One fan mentioned about Silva handling first and Savage even said that wouldn't be considered because it was before.

I cannot believe everyone is letting City get away with calling that a bad decision.

From what I understand the VAR referee didn't think it was handball, which I cannot understand, so they didn't factor in the Silva handball as part of the decision making process. I really don't understand that but it would be nice if the chief referee was able to give technical explanations to media for controversial decisions after all the games are finished to help everyone understand better how VAR works.

In the same article above, I suppose I should link to it since I've referenced it 3 times now, the chief for VAR gives themselves 7 out of 10 and seems quite pleased with that score.

I wouldn't be happy with 7 out of 10.

The comment on the offside images was the most interesting point made by him for me. If it's true that images are much clearer in the VAR room that gives me much greater confidence in the overall success of introducing VAR.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50380641
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Old 12-11-19, 02:25 AM   #422
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The silva handball shouldnt be a factor as the rules are clear
Any unintentional handball by the attacking player is ignored and play continues.
Any unintentional handball by a defender, if the arm is moved towards the ball (is that right?), is handball.
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Old 12-11-19, 03:31 AM   #423
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No it wouldn’t. Quite the opposite. The clock goes off so time can’t be wasted. If someone goes down and starts rolling abou the ref just stops the clock.
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Old 12-11-19, 03:33 AM   #424
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The silva handball shouldnt be a factor as the rules are clear
Any unintentional handball by the attacking player is ignored and play continues.
Any unintentional handball by a defender, if the arm is moved towards the ball (is that right?), is handball.
Great. The more they feel cheated the better. Fuck em. It'd be even better if Trent now came out and said he deliberately stuck his hand out
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Old 12-11-19, 04:07 AM   #425
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The silva handball shouldnt be a factor as the rules are clear
Any unintentional handball by the attacking player is ignored and play continues.
Any unintentional handball by a defender, if the arm is moved towards the ball (is that right?), is handball.


So it's only handball if the defenders hand moves towards the ball?

I thought the rule was changed this season so it was pretty much always handball unless your hands are by your body?
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Old 12-11-19, 04:35 AM   #426
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Great. The more they feel cheated the better. Fuck em. It'd be even better if Trent now came out and said he deliberately stuck his hand out
Ha ha, I'd pay to watch that. I think Guardiola would just explode into little pieces
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Old 12-11-19, 02:24 PM   #427
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So it's only handball if the defenders hand moves towards the ball?

I thought the rule was changed this season so it was pretty much always handball unless your hands are by your body?
There is also a consideration if the ball ricochets onto a players arm from his own kick, but nothing is as black and white as its written given the frantic pace of the game and how quickly the ball is bouncing around...

Handballs
Any goal scored or created with the use of the hand or arm will be disallowed this season even if it is accidental.
The handball rule now has extra clarity because it does not consider intent by a player.
Another big change is to do with the position of a player's hand/arm.
If the ball hits a player who has made their body "unnaturally bigger" then a foul will be awarded.

IFAB says that having the hand/arm above shoulder height is rarely a "natural" position and a player is "taking a risk" by having the hand/arm in that position, including when sliding.
It is, however, considered natural for a player to put their arm between their body and the ground for support when falling, so long as the arm is not extended to make the body bigger.

Deflections
Premier League players will be allowed extra leeway when it comes to ricocheted handballs.
It is often impossible to avoid contact with the ball if it has deflected off the body of an opponent, team-mate, or even another part of the own player.
So a handball will not be awarded if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm directly from their own head/body/foot or the head/body/foot of another player who is close/nearby.

https://www.premierleague.com/news/1263332
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Old 12-11-19, 02:29 PM   #428
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The important thing to keep in mind here is that we did not benefit from any VAR decision the other day. The ref on both occasions waved away any claim immediately both from good positions, just like the good old days, plus the linesman didnt flag for Salah's (unlike Bobby's wrongly, against Villa).

If VAR wasnt about.......that game would have finished 3-1
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Old 12-11-19, 02:38 PM   #429
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The important thing to keep in mind here is that we did not benefit from any VAR decision the other day. The ref on both occasions waved away any claim immediately both from good positions, just like the good old days, plus the linesman didnt flag for Salah's (unlike Bobby's wrongly, against Villa).

If VAR wasnt about.......that game would have finished 3-1
VAR reviewed both goals, disrupted the game and the goal celebrations and did not overrule the referee's decision.

So we did benefit from it, and it wasn't like the good old days.
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Old 13-11-19, 05:56 AM   #430
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Fuck all this VAR shit, just get two referees on the pitch or four linesmen(women) - one for each quadrant.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:59 PM   #431
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So there was another VAR balls up in the Southampton/Watford game, where an accidental handball by an attacker in the build up went unnoticed. Got me wondering what an attacker is supposed to do if the ball inadvertently hits their hand/arm. It's not a foul that stops play, but if the attack leads to a goal it will be disallowed. So you have clear sight of goal but there's no point shooting, or even crossing it.

There's no clear guidance on how long after the contact the rule applies for, or how many touches are required to negate the hand contact. Smashing the ball back 80 yards to your own keeper or hitting it over the stand are probably the safest options. What is the point of allowing the game to progress?
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Old 01-12-19, 01:39 PM   #432
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So there was another VAR balls up in the Southampton/Watford game, where an accidental handball by an attacker in the build up went unnoticed. Got me wondering what an attacker is supposed to do if the ball inadvertently hits their hand/arm. It's not a foul that stops play, but if the attack leads to a goal it will be disallowed. So you have clear sight of goal but there's no point shooting, or even crossing it.

There's no clear guidance on how long after the contact the rule applies for, or how many touches are required to negate the hand contact. Smashing the ball back 80 yards to your own keeper or hitting it over the stand are probably the safest options. What is the point of allowing the game to progress?
I think you should just play to the whistle, if you get the chance stick it in the net. Let VAR make the decision, VAR might have missed it and the goal might stand, it sounds unsporting it's not up to you to referee the game. If you stop play it could lead to discussion with your teammates if they haven't seen the ball hit your arm and distract them from defending the throw, goalkick or whatever. The VAR decision process at least prevents that. The absolute worst thing you can do though is stop playing and leave a live ball, if you aren't playing on you at least need to put the ball out of play, maybe that makes sense if you chasing the game with little time left on the clock and want to preserve it I suppose, but I would play on, try to score and make VAR make the decision in most circumstances I think.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:00 PM   #433
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MOTD said that they didn't have the angle when they looked at the Southampton goal at the time they made the decision, but when they saw it 10 mins later from that angle said that it should have been disallowed.

The big question is: Why did they not have all the angle when making the decision, if clearly the needed camera angle exists and they can look at it later, when it's too late?? That is a serious fundamental flaw in the VAR system.
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Old 01-12-19, 03:40 PM   #434
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People say that the tech isn't the problem, it's the people, but that goes against that somewhat. If you believe them. I find it hard to believe that they had no angle showing it, they must, even if it wasn't the clearest one. The VAR didn't notice but officials never admit to mistakes.
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Old 01-12-19, 05:07 PM   #435
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So there was another VAR balls up in the Southampton/Watford game, where an accidental handball by an attacker in the build up went unnoticed. Got me wondering what an attacker is supposed to do if the ball inadvertently hits their hand/arm. It's not a foul that stops play, but if the attack leads to a goal it will be disallowed. So you have clear sight of goal but there's no point shooting, or even crossing it.

There's no clear guidance on how long after the contact the rule applies for, or how many touches are required to negate the hand contact. Smashing the ball back 80 yards to your own keeper or hitting it over the stand are probably the safest options. What is the point of allowing the game to progress?
I saw this on motd (replay at 7am) and it was more than an accidental hand ball, the ball went to the attackers hand and he then looked to scoop the ball forward with a flick of his hand so the ball then went in front of him rather than ran away from him.
Defo a handball.
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too many gutless players, no beef or desire. pussies everywhere... sack them all, but not VVD or Alisson
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Old 06-12-19, 10:08 AM   #436
Kenneth
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Linesman flags for offside, almost everyone stops playing and Shelvey puts it past the keeper. VAR gives the goal.

https://streamja.com/o41L
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VAR is utter bollocks
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Old 06-12-19, 10:11 AM   #437
Buzzo
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Play to the whistle.

You could stop playing on almost any incident to attempt to pressurise the ref.

He was miles onside.
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Old 06-12-19, 10:19 AM   #438
Maxiedge
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That was poor by SU even though linesman error. They know the rules, they have to keep playing. Think they would all take responsibility in the dressing room afterwards rather than blame external factors.

On positive note, VAR rules out a blatant offside goal for Arsenal last night which would have been harsh on Brighton.
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Old 06-12-19, 11:13 AM   #439
Norbs
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He was well away anyway, they couldn't catch him and thought they'd try and get offside.

Bet they don't do that again in a hurry
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Old 06-12-19, 11:20 AM   #440
labourRed
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
Linesman flags for offside, almost everyone stops playing and Shelvey puts it past the keeper. VAR gives the goal.

https://streamja.com/o41L
That's all on 100% SU. Wilder can cry all he likes about VAR, and people only do it when it goes against them.

But the alternative here is the linesman flags a perfectly fine attack off. In his defence assistant reffing is the hardest to do, i'd say near impossible with any real degree of accuracy.

Play to the whistle, its not hard... kids can do it. Wilder also said Newcastle did a number on them, that's when he should have stopped talking.
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