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Old 16-01-11, 11:40 PM   #1
Craig_H
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Jamie Carragher

About how we're 'worse with him in the side', how we 'have a negative goal difference with him in the side', how we're 'better without him playing' etc etc.

The facts and statistics prove all of the above comprehensively wrong....

This seasons stats...

With Carra:

Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 6 Lost 6 Goals For 29 Goals Against 22 GD +7
Win percentage: 45%
Loss percentage 27%
Positive GD

Without Carra:

Played 12 Won 3 Drawn 4 Lost 5 Goals For 15 Goals Against 16 GD -1
Win percentage: 25%
Loss percentage: 41%
Negative GD

So in future, those wishing to claim that he is a liability who we are better off without, can clearly see this is just incorrect. The FACT is, that we win more when he plays and we lose more when he doesnt.

If they wish to argue that we'd be better off signing a quality CB and putting him in the side instead of Carragher - that may well be a valid point. But that's not what i have seen them saying.

That is all.

Last edited by Craig_H; 16-01-11 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:43 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig_H View Post
About how we're 'worse with him in the side', how we 'have a negative goal difference with him in the side', how we're 'better without him playing' etc etc.

The facts and statistics prove all of the above comprehensively wrong....

This seasons stats...

With Carra:

Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 6 Lost 6 Goals For 29 Goals Against 22 GD +7
Win percentage: 45%#
Loss percentage 27%
Positive GD

Without Carra:

Played 12 Won 3 Drawn 4 Lost 5 Goals For 15 Goals Against 16 GD -1
Win percentage: 25%
Loss percentage: 41%
Negative GD

So in future, those wishing to claim that he is a liability who we are better off without, can clearly see this is just incorrect. The FACT is, that we win more when he plays and we lose more when he doesnt.

If they wish to argue that we'd be better off signing a quality CB and putting him in the side instead of Carragher - that may well be a valid point. But that's not what i have seen them saying.

That is all.
It's just coincidence.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:44 PM   #3
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Old 16-01-11, 11:45 PM   #4
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So this is for half a season only, was this the argument/accusation, that he's now past it, but he's only been past it this season ?

Is that what your refering to as 'the Carra myth' Craig ? I've not taken much notice of what's been said about him tbh.

Last edited by Vermilion; 16-01-11 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:46 PM   #5
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Doesn't mean we can't do better though. Ideally he'd be a squad player for me. Need a top class CB.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:46 PM   #6
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Doesn't take a genius to work out most people problem with Carra, and it's nothing to do with football ability.

He is on the slide and he does need replaced but he's definitely one of our first choice centre backs right now.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:47 PM   #7
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So this is for half a season only, was this the argument/accusation, that he's now past it, but he's only been past it this season ?
Certain posters who shall remain nameless, have peddled this nonsense that we have been worse with him in the side, than we have without.

Whether he is 'past it' or not, is debatable, for sure.

But of the players we have now, we do far better when he plays.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:48 PM   #8
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Doesn't mean we can't do better though. Ideally he'd be a squad player for me. Need a top class CB.
For sure, i agree with that.

But of those that we have, he warrants his place in the team and we certainly do better when he plays.

I sense you're moving over to the dark side, where Carra's concerned
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Old 16-01-11, 11:48 PM   #9
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At the game today , it's clear there is no organisation without him in the side


We will be a lot better with him back and might have taken 6 points from the last 2 games
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Old 16-01-11, 11:51 PM   #10
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Certain posters who shall remain nameless, have peddled this nonsense that we have been worse with him in the side, than we have without.

Whether he is 'past it' or not, is debatable, for sure.

But of the players we have now, we do far better when he plays.
I see.

Definately missing his organisation and motivational qualities just now.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:51 PM   #11
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For sure, i agree with that.

But of those that we have, he warrants his place in the team and we certainly do better when he plays.

I sense you're moving over to the dark side, where Carra's concerned
The contract sham left a real sour taste, I think he's past his best and no longer good enough for where we want to be, and I worry that it will take a manager with big bollocks to leave him out.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:54 PM   #12
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The contract sham left a real sour taste, I think he's past his best and no longer good enough for where we want to be, and I worry that it will take a manager with big bollocks to leave him out.
I agree he is past his best. But even his 'sub-best' is currently the best partner for Agger.

It depends on what circumstances you would want him left out. With the squad we have, i dont see the scenario that says he should be dropped.

If we sign a quality aggressive CB, then yeah, for sure he becomes a squad player and not an automatic 1st teamer.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:54 PM   #13
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He's still an important player but he's not untouchable any more - is i think what people are trying to say. Short term plan yes but medium term solution no. It wouldn't be unreasonable to expect to get a big name in by the end of Aug imo.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:59 PM   #14
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I thought he'd become a bit of a liability, but I've realised that we're much weaker without him in the side. The sooner he returns the better.
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Old 16-01-11, 11:59 PM   #15
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I agree he is past his best. But even his 'sub-best' is currently the best partner for Agger.

It depends on what circumstances you would want him left out. With the squad we have, i dont see the scenario that says he should be dropped.

If we sign a quality aggressive CB, then yeah, for sure he becomes a squad player and not an automatic 1st teamer.
Yeah at the moment I'd have him and Agger, but as I said I'd love to see a quality CB come in. Who though is another matter.
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Old 17-01-11, 12:00 AM   #16
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I'm not sure what happened to Skrtel though. He looked excellent in his first year under Rafa.
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Old 17-01-11, 12:02 AM   #17
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Old 17-01-11, 12:19 AM   #18
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Carra isn't top four quality. We and Chelsea have the same problem. How to replace a legend. They need to replace Terry and we Carra.

It is not something you just go out and do because of the influence they have off the pitch. You need a strong manager and a board that backs the manager 100% to do that.

We need more complete central defenders or else the opposition will just use the weakness they have against us.

If Carra plays, stress him. If Kyrgiakos plays, stress him and play the ball on the ground. If Skrtel plays, use his weakness on dead ball situations against him. Agger is our only "complete" central defender.

Craig, you do know that we finished second 08/09 when Torres and Gerrard only played together 22 times. If we go by your logic then we shouldn't play them together. We played our best season the last 20 years when our so called super combination of Torres and Gerrard didn't play that much together.

Statistics doesn't prove everything.
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Old 17-01-11, 12:26 AM   #19
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Carra isn't top four quality. We and Chelsea have the same problem. How to replace a legend. They need to replace Terry and we Carra.

It is not something you just go out and do because of the influence they have off the pitch. You need a strong manager and a board that backs the manager 100% to do that.

We need more complete central defenders or else the opposition will just use the weakness they have against us.

If Carra plays, stress him. If Kyrgiakos plays, stress him and play the ball on the ground. If Skrtel plays, use his weakness on dead ball situations against him. Agger is our only "complete" central defender.

Craig, you do know that we finished second 08/09 when Torres and Gerrard only played together 22 times. If we go by your logic then we shouldn't play them together. We played our best season the last 20 years when our so called super combination of Torres and Gerrard didn't play that much together.

Statistics doesn't prove everything.
Shut up with your loony nonsense shite mate.

I should have put a 'Arn cant post' rule on this thread

The stats PROVE that we do better with Carragher than we do without. Fact.
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Old 17-01-11, 12:46 AM   #20
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What are the stats for the league games?

I agree Carra should start (with Agger) but I don't remember us being much better with him in the side. Hence people were moaning about him.
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Old 17-01-11, 01:43 AM   #21
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When's Carragher back?
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Old 17-01-11, 02:08 AM   #22
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What are the stats for the league games?
In fairness i'd like to see stats for all the permutations of our CMs.
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Old 17-01-11, 02:34 AM   #23
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Shut up with your loony nonsense shite mate.

I should have put a 'Arn cant post' rule on this thread

The stats PROVE that we do better with Carragher than we do without. Fact.
Maybe you should have put a "you are free to post your opinion about Carra as long as it the same as mine" rule on this thread.

Carra is simply not good enough. He was that two three years ago.

You must also look at what kind of system you want us to play. If you want us to play a high pressing game with a high defensive line then Carra would struggle. If you want us to play like we did with Roy then it would suit him much better.

Attacking game....No Carra.
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Old 17-01-11, 02:36 AM   #24
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Maybe you should have put a "you are free to post your opinion about Carra as long as it the same as mine" rule on this thread.

Carra is simply not good enough. He was that two three years ago.

You must also look at what kind of system you want us to play. If you want us to play a high pressing game with a high defensive line then Carra would struggle. If you want us to play like we did with Roy then it would suit him much better.

Attacking game....No Carra.
I'm not talking about ifs and buts, and i'm not talking about 'opinions' here - it is factually proven this season that when Carra plays, we win more.

FACT Arn. Not opinion.
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Old 17-01-11, 02:43 AM   #25
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I'm not talking about ifs and buts, and i'm not talking about 'opinions' here - it is factually proven this season that when Carra plays, we win more.

FACT Arn. Not opinion.
And why did we do that? The answer is that we played a very defensive game. A game that suited him perfectly.

If you want us to change and play a more attacking game then you also need central defenders that will be able to pass the ball out of a tight and pressured situation. Carra is very good DEFENSIVE central defender but a very average attacking central defender.
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Old 17-01-11, 02:45 AM   #26
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And why did we do that? The answer is that we played a very defensive game. A game that suited him perfectly.

If you want us to change and play a more attacking game then you also need central defenders that will be able to pass the ball out of a tight and pressured situation. Carra is very good DEFENSIVE central defender but a very average attacking central defender.
Yeah, having a defensive central defender's mental isnt it?

Maybe the ideal balance is one of each? Just a thought....
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Old 17-01-11, 08:58 AM   #27
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Wonder how many games Agger and Krygiakos have played together. I'd give them a go. Skrtel needs resting.
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Old 17-01-11, 09:01 AM   #28
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Didn't Ayala come back from loan due to injury? He did will at Hull by all accounts. I wonder if he'll get a chance eventually.
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Old 17-01-11, 09:03 AM   #29
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I read Hull want him back. Might be worth a go!
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Old 17-01-11, 09:05 AM   #30
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From Le Beeb

Hull City await next move on Liverpool youngster Ayala

Daniel Ayala scored his only goal for Hull City against Derby in September
Hull City are still to find out whether Liverpool's young Spanish defender Daniel Ayala will be allowed to return on loan to the KC Stadium this season.
Ayala, 20, went back to Anfield with a hamstring injury in December, amidst claims by then Reds boss Roy Hodgson that Hull had mismanaged the problem.
But Tigers boss Nigel Pearson told BBC Radio Humberside: "I'm not going to get involved in that conversation now.
"He's a player we enjoyed having here, but we'll have to wait and see."
Ayala signed for Liverpool in 2008, but found first team opportunities limited under both Hodgson and previous manager Rafa Benitez, making just two league starts.
He joined Hull in September 2010, making a total of 12 appearances, during which time the Tigers shipped just 13 goals, one of the tightest defensive records in the Championship.
Ayala is not expected to be fit now until mid-February after picking up his hamstring problem in November.
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Old 17-01-11, 09:37 AM   #31
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I agree he is past his best. But even his 'sub-best' is currently the best partner for Agger.

It depends on what circumstances you would want him left out. With the squad we have, i dont see the scenario that says he should be dropped.

If we sign a quality aggressive CB, then yeah, for sure he becomes a squad player and not an automatic 1st teamer.

I agree with all that
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Old 17-01-11, 11:58 AM   #32
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I thought he'd become a bit of a liability, but I've realised that we're much weaker without him in the side. The sooner he returns the better.


My sentiments exactly. I was looking forward to the defensive experiment without Carragher, but sadly it has failed miserably.

What Craig’s post also doesn’t highlight is that we’ve had a long run of easy games on paper since Carragher got injured and we’ve still done worse. A new CB is needed urgently or Kenny should throw Ayala / Wilson / Kelly in at the deep end.
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Old 17-01-11, 11:59 AM   #33
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Right now we need Carra but it is inevitable that he will need to be phased out due to 1) his age and 2) hopefully our progression in playing style.
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Old 17-01-11, 12:02 PM   #34
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My sentiments exactly. I was looking forward to the defensive experiment without Carragher, but sadly it has failed miserably.

What Craig’s post also doesn’t highlight is that we’ve had a long run of easy games on paper since Carragher got injured and we’ve still done worse. A new CB is needed urgently or Kenny should throw Ayala / Wilson / Kelly in at the deep end.
We need a leader of the defence, at the moment Carragher is the only one we have, Skrtel and Kyriakos aren't good enough, Agger I'm unsure about he seems to have a more calming influence on the defence than either of the other two, the problem is he doesn't seem to get a run of enough games to find out.

The last few games has caused me to think that a commanding centre back has to be high on the list of priorities
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Old 17-01-11, 01:09 PM   #35
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We need a leader of the defence, at the moment Carragher is the only one we have, Skrtel and Kyriakos aren't good enough, Agger I'm unsure about he seems to have a more calming influence on the defence than either of the other two, the problem is he doesn't seem to get a run of enough games to find out.

The last few games has caused me to think that a commanding centre back has to be high on the list of priorities
Aye, a few months ago when Kyrgiakos was regularly picking up MOTM awards I’d have said that a new CB is the least of our worries, but we need to get someone in ASAP who we can rely on week in week out, settle on a regular back four and start picking up clean sheets again. I’d say even Pepe needs to even step it up a gear or two as bar the 30 second flurry of saves against United I can’t remember him doing too much of late. (I’m probably being overly harsh on him as I’ve had him in my FF team for ages and am getting no points.)


There was also one set-piece in the second half yesterday when everyone took up their positions. One of the bigger Everton players was left free at the back though and our players were looking at eachother as if to say ‘what the fuck do we do here?’. A player was then pulled from the centre which highlighted the fact that Lucas was left in the middle marking the much bigger Anichebe who inevitably had a free header which he put wide. It was just a bit of a shambles really as TBH I wasn’t surprised when we conceded the first goal and even less surprised that Skrtel was culpable.
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Old 17-01-11, 01:20 PM   #36
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the "problem" with Carra isn't really his ability, may be on the wane but not too much thus far, it's more to do with the clout he carries in the dressing room. Shop steward scenario?
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Old 17-01-11, 01:39 PM   #37
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Aye, a few months ago when Kyrgiakos was regularly picking up MOTM awards I’d have said that a new CB is the least of our worries, but we need to get someone in ASAP who we can rely on week in week out, settle on a regular back four and start picking up clean sheets again. I’d say even Pepe needs to even step it up a gear or two as bar the 30 second flurry of saves against United I can’t remember him doing too much of late. (I’m probably being overly harsh on him as I’ve had him in my FF team for ages and am getting no points.)


There was also one set-piece in the second half yesterday when everyone took up their positions. One of the bigger Everton players was left free at the back though and our players were looking at eachother as if to say ‘what the fuck do we do here?’. A player was then pulled from the centre which highlighted the fact that Lucas was left in the middle marking the much bigger Anichebe who inevitably had a free header which he put wide. It was just a bit of a shambles really as TBH I wasn’t surprised when we conceded the first goal and even less surprised that Skrtel was culpable.
Kyriakos is just so cavalier in his approach he's either going to have a great game and be immence, or he's going to make a really bad mistake. He was only really a stop gap and as a 4th choice defender would be fine in normal circumstances, it's just worrying we have to use him so much, because of injuries.

I can recall Pepe making a couple of mistakes this season (opening day) and another but I can't recall the game, but other than that he's been fine. I think the problem is the defence in front of him, I know it's a cliche but a keeper is only as good as his back 4 and our back four is all over the place, so that doesn't inspire confidence.
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Old 17-01-11, 04:15 PM   #38
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And why did we do that? The answer is that we played a very defensive game. A game that suited him perfectly.

If you want us to change and play a more attacking game then you also need central defenders that will be able to pass the ball out of a tight and pressured situation. Carra is very good DEFENSIVE central defender but a very average attacking central defender.
You appear not to have read the rules. Please refrain from posting logical arguments and common sense in this thread
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Old 17-01-11, 06:11 PM   #39
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Kyriakos is just so cavalier in his approach he's either going to have a great game and be immence, or he's going to make a really bad mistake. He was only really a stop gap and as a 4th choice defender would be fine in normal circumstances, it's just worrying we have to use him so much, because of injuries.

I can recall Pepe making a couple of mistakes this season (opening day) and another but I can't recall the game, but other than that he's been fine. I think the problem is the defence in front of him, I know it's a cliche but a keeper is only as good as his back 4 and our back four is all over the place, so that doesn't inspire confidence.

I’m not saying that Pepe has been playing badly, he’s been left horribly exposed by the defence in front of him. Last year we didn’t defend great either, but Pepe was still able to pull us out of a few holes and was regularly nominated for MOTM.

I suppose though all that ‘English style’ training has probably had an effect.
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Old 17-01-11, 06:11 PM   #40
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You appear not to have read the rules. Please refrain from posting logical arguments and common sense in this thread


Sorry
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