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Old 04-04-20, 11:54 PM   #441
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Originally Posted by spud_gun View Post
You're entire raison d'etre is to be contrary.

Whoop to you for you not rushing to judgement.

And i'd hardly call the post you've quoted 'a rant'
Yeah, not that post, but there was another before. I can't be arsed to find it.

Anyway, whatever. Feel free to have a grown up conversation whenever you like.
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Old 04-04-20, 11:58 PM   #442
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Yeah, not that post, but there was another before. I can't be arsed to find it.

Anyway, whatever. Feel free to have a grown up conversation whenever you like.
Sloppy.
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Old 05-04-20, 12:05 AM   #443
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Ok.

Enjoy your evening.
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Old 05-04-20, 12:34 AM   #444
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Not at all. And I get that people are more invested in football clubs than other companies, and maybe it is just me but I have no problem with the football club acting as best they can to protect themselves.
Like I said above while Liverpool are a large football club they are a medium size business in the grand scheme of things. One who has lost a major source of income for the foreseeable future and are using whatever means available to mitigate the risk in uncertain times.
They be a medium sized business but by heck they aren't short of a few quid. The premier league is awash with cash. You're not comparing like for like.
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Old 05-04-20, 12:35 AM   #445
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They be a medium sized business but by heck they aren't short of a few quid. The premier league is awash with cash. You're not comparing like for like.
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Old 05-04-20, 12:59 AM   #446
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They be a medium sized business but by heck they aren't short of a few quid. The premier league is awash with cash. You're not comparing like for like.
Some clubs are. Most aren't. Owners will probably want to provide a unified front on this and keep a status quo. IMO.
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Old 05-04-20, 01:13 AM   #447
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Not at all. And I get that people are more invested in football clubs than other companies, and maybe it is just me but I have no problem with the football club acting as best they can to protect themselves.
Like I said above while Liverpool are a large football club they are a medium size business in the grand scheme of things. One who has lost a major source of income for the foreseeable future and are using whatever means available to mitigate the risk in uncertain times.
Look at their accounts on companies house, what they are doing is wrong and Iím ashamed of our club, they can well afford to pay the wages of ordinary people. Weíre do you you think the payment of these furlong payments will come from? Increased taxes from me and you and everyone else who are by no means as wealthy as FSG and LFC
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Old 05-04-20, 04:50 AM   #448
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They could have met with the players and proposed wage cuts to fund all Liverpool FC related staff.

To be honest, these fuckers can be paid two years wages to cover their entire careers and still retire in their mid-30s.
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Old 05-04-20, 08:39 AM   #449
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They be a medium sized business but by heck they aren't short of a few quid. The premier league is awash with cash. You're not comparing like for like.
I suspect that the issue is with cash flow and the uncertainty around the remainder of the season. They are still having to pay wages, but have no income, the TV money is on hold, there are no match day revenues and presumably no one is buying merchandise.

Money raising pre-season tours presumably won't be happening, and if the season is voided they will have to payback a huge amount of TV money that has probably already been spent. We made a profit of £40m or so last year but I imagine that could be eaten into very quickly. The situation doesn't sit particularly will with me either but I hope that the reasoning for doing it is something like the above and that the club will straighten things out once things are sorted.
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Old 05-04-20, 09:44 AM   #450
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If the club doesn’t sort this out I’m pretty much done with it.
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Old 05-04-20, 10:41 AM   #451
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Wow, bit of an overreaction imo.
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Old 05-04-20, 10:43 AM   #452
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I'm not a fan of means testing government support for virtually anything. Proper taxation of wealth is the best way to fairly account for the fact that some individuals or organisations have greater means vs need.

Selective public shaming, on the other hand, tends to just ensure that shameless people with no scruples come out better off again and again.
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Old 05-04-20, 10:47 AM   #453
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This whole thing from the PFA about how players taking wage cuts would hurt the NHS is a load of shameful manipulative bullshit.
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Old 05-04-20, 11:03 AM   #454
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Wow, bit of an overreaction imo.
Itís just the last drop. Iíve basically lost most interest in football anyway. LFC and this place was the only things keeping me interested. So I guess Iíll just stop spending any money on the club and leave it there. I wonít change club or anything, just stop caring.
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Old 05-04-20, 11:26 AM   #455
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This whole thing from the PFA about how players taking wage cuts would hurt the NHS is a load of shameful manipulative bullshit.
Totally.

The lack of self awareness is mind boggling.
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Old 05-04-20, 11:51 AM   #456
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PFA is (as always) a disgrace but the scapegoating of the football industry as a whole is a shameless diversion tactic.
Helps that the players are often foreign and/or brown.
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Old 05-04-20, 03:36 PM   #457
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PFA is (as always) a disgrace but the scapegoating of the football industry as a whole is a shameless diversion tactic.
Helps that the players are often foreign and/or brown.
I don't think that's anything to do with it at all as there's plenty of non blacks and foreigners in the game too. I think its more about working class lads earning fortunes for kicking a ball about.

I also think its the weekly salaries that's the issue here and the sheer number of employees earning these amounts on a weekly basis. Its far easier to visualize a salary of 100k a week as being obscene, whilst massive director bonuses go under the radar a little. People will voice disgust at multi million pound bonuses, but its yesterdays news before long. Footballers are in the news constantly. A few years ago, the company I work for rewarded its board of 30 Directors with a bonus pot of £1Billion. The Chief Exec had £130M, that would've taken a footballer on £150k a week some 15 or so years to earn. That year our bonus was £0.00.

Its easy to get sidetracked by all of this by taking sides, but at the end of the day footballers, just like top company executives and directors are all part of the problem. They're not exempt from criticism simply because they're working class, black or foreign.

Each to their own, but football has stunk for a long time, greed is the issue and far too many people at the top just push for more and more. I get fed up every year fighting alongside my colleagues for a 2% pay rise, whilst footballers agents are pushing for pay rises in the tens of thousands for their clients, whilst threatening to move on a free if they don't get their way. There are some exceptions of course, but I have a feeling that the majority aren't.
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Old 05-04-20, 04:17 PM   #458
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I don't think that's anything to do with it at all as there's plenty of non blacks and foreigners in the game too.
We'll agree to disagree but that reasoning is flawed.
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Old 05-04-20, 06:25 PM   #459
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I'll probably get shot down here but I'll put my 2 pennies in.

I really wish we hadn't done this for obvious reasons. I would love to know the amount of money the club will likely get back from the government to understand the reasons.

But fucking hell, there are companies all over the country doing exactly what we have done to protect themselves.

Every person who works for the club is still getting 100% of their wages. That includes people who are match day only. The club is putting forward it's option to get back 80% of those peoples wages.

It has completely protected the staff. it's not laid them off like the likes of Cineworld and is still paying them unlike Wetherspoons.

Absolutely agree that this is not great for the perception of the club. Especially considering our attempts to portray ourselves as a local persons club.

My only issue with the reaction is that football in general is targeted during these times. Government officials have even targeted footballers ffs whilst Tories have been seen to be making a profit off the pandemic! If I could see absolute outrage for other companies who had done the same then I'd get it 100%. ( I mean besides the likes of Wetherspoons etc who aren't even paying their staff until they get the cash in).

I genuinely wish we had waited (if we need the money) until other clubs besides Newcastle and Spurs had done it. Everyone knows what a cunt Ashley is and how greedy Levy is. This has damaged our reputation without a doubt but I guarantee te same fans who are kicking off about this now (for reasons I agree with) will be the same people kicking off as we haven't spent £120m on Sancho in the summer.

Summary - football is a business, a very expensive business, and we are run mostly well. I wish we hadn't done this but I don't see it as badly as other people do now I've tried to dissect it in my head.







Disclaimer - I don't think we should have done it but don't think it is a bad as people say it is. I just wish we had more information on the financials to understand it better.

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Old 05-04-20, 06:28 PM   #460
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PS. It's my marriage anniversary today and I may be on my second bottle of wine and therefore exercise my right to redact that last post in the morning.
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Old 05-04-20, 06:35 PM   #461
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No need, itís a pretty fair assessment imo.

You forgot to add that we wonít be hearing a peep from the supporters of other clubs currently having a go at us, once their club decides to do the same.
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Old 05-04-20, 08:48 PM   #462
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I'd hope when this is over all footballers wages are reduced on a permanent basis. The world economy is going to be knackered, peoples livelihoods gone, businesses closed and a lot of unemployment. For a footballer to then take home in excess of 100k a week would be obscene. Well it is now but even more so then.
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Old 05-04-20, 08:51 PM   #463
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I haven’t read this but just posting it here - an article on the situation from Paul Tompkins

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Old 05-04-20, 08:53 PM   #464
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I'd hope when this is over all footballers wages are reduced on a permanent basis. The world economy is going to be knackered, peoples livelihoods gone, businesses closed and a lot of unemployment. For a footballer to then take home in excess of 100k a week would be obscene. Well it is now but even more so then.
Why artificially reduce footballer wages?

Just properly tax everyone who earns this unreasonable amount of money.
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Old 05-04-20, 10:37 PM   #465
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Why artificially reduce footballer wages?

Just properly tax everyone who earns this unreasonable amount of money.
Bang on
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Old 05-04-20, 10:37 PM   #466
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I don't really agree with the outrage personally. Doesn't really matter how rich the owners are, it's the club's debt and they are mostly all private businesses. Each club will pay just under 14% of players gross salaries over to the government - not sure if the figures widely reported include ER NIC (I doubt it) but i've quickly googled and Utd's wage bill was £332m - so they'll have paid ~£45m over to the government in one year on ER NIC alone. What they're claiming back is surely a drop in the ocean compared to that? Are we really saying that they can give but not take back like the rest of us? If this goes on for a long time then the players aren't first out the door are they. These staff now have certainty over their jobs and don't lose out on pay.
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Old 05-04-20, 10:39 PM   #467
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Bang on
Is 45% not enough then?
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Old 05-04-20, 10:48 PM   #468
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Is 45% not enough then?
Nah, definitely needs to be around 60%
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Old 05-04-20, 10:49 PM   #469
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Above 250k or sommat of course
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Old 05-04-20, 10:55 PM   #470
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Nah, definitely needs to be around 60%
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Above 250k or sommat of course
Of course If some cunt took 60% of my wage i'd definitely work somewhere else!
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Old 05-04-20, 11:07 PM   #471
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Of course If some cunt took 60% of my wage i'd definitely work somewhere else!
Fortunately that's not how progressive taxation works.
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Old 06-04-20, 02:48 AM   #472
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PS. It's my marriage anniversary today and I may be on my second bottle of wine and therefore exercise my right to redact that last post in the morning.
Fair fucks man, I'd have a third
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Old 06-04-20, 09:00 AM   #473
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Fortunately that's not how progressive taxation works.
I'm (unfortunately?) an accountant and all too aware
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Old 06-04-20, 09:35 AM   #474
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I'm (unfortunately?) an accountant and all too aware
It's hard to write a reply that counters what's written without risking some level of condescension!

I rage at Twitter comments where people think Government literally takes a large percentage of their entire earnings.
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Old 06-04-20, 11:46 AM   #475
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Old 06-04-20, 02:17 PM   #476
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So here is an article, about another obscenely rich sport. But here the stars often live in Monaco and don't pay a penny in tax. And MaLaren have put staff on furlough. Yet, I don't see MPs and journalists crying out for drivers to take pay cuts.

Not that I think anyone should be crying out for such a thing, but that's been covered already.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/52175140

Quote:
Zak Brown: McLaren boss says F1 needs big changes to survive

Formula 1 is "in a very fragile state" as a result of the coronavirus crisis and needs big changes to survive, McLaren boss Zak Brown says.

"This is potentially devastating to teams, and if [it is devastating] to enough teams - which doesn't have to mean more than two - then very threatening to F1 as a whole," he said.

Cost-saving plans will be discussed at a meeting of F1 bosses on Monday.

But the teams are divided over how best to safeguard the sport.

Brown, speaking in an exclusive interview with BBC Sport, believes the $175m (£143m) budget cap, scheduled to come into force in 2021, needs to be lowered significantly, or the sport risks a potential disaster.

"Could I see - through what is going on right now in the world if we don't tackle this situation head on very aggressively - two teams disappearing? Yeah," said Brown, the chief executive officer of McLaren Racing.

"In fact, I could see four teams disappearing if this isn't handled the right way.

"And then, given how long it takes to ramp up an F1 team, and given the economic and health crisis we are in right now, to think there would be people lined up to take over those teams like there has historically been... I don't think the timing could be worse from that standpoint.

"So I think F1 is in a very fragile state at the moment."


Why make the budget cap lower?

F1 and the teams have already agreed a series of changes to lower costs because the sport faces a significant drop in revenues as a result of the cancellation of races.

These include delaying until 2022 a big rule change that had been planned to come into force in 2021, and forcing teams to run the same cars this year and next.

Brown says all teams have now agreed to lower the budget cap to $150m (£122m) in 2021 but he believes it has to come down further.

"You have everyone at $150m, and the strong majority - including one of the big teams - willing to come substantially under $150m," he said.

Brown would not name teams, but BBC Sport understands the big team accepting of a lower cap are Mercedes, while Ferrari and Red Bull are resistant.

Brown has proposed a limit of $100m (£81.5m) and would be prepared to compromise on $125m (£102m).

He believes that a lower cost cap - with the same exemptions as now, such as driver salaries - would serve to make the field more competitive by reducing the financial advantage of the big teams and give the smaller teams a better chance of achieving good results.

"If we don't make an aggressive enough budget cap and some people feel they have to top up this year and have no chance of getting it back," he said, "then they ask themselves: Why are they in it?

"I don't think anyone competes in F1 just to make up the numbers."

What is the opposing view?

Those arguing in favour of keeping the budget cap up at $150m argue that many of the smaller teams are not even spending that much, so lowering it would not help them survive financially.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner told BBC Sport in an interview last week that the budget cap was "secondary" and that "reducing the cost to go racing" was more important.

Brown argued: "In football, while everyone knows Manchester United or Liverpool are going to win more often than not, every team has a chance to beat them, and in F1 it is just not the case.

"And a couple of the teams are putting their sporting interests well ahead of the greater good and missing the point that they are really running the risk of jeopardising the sport - and then we all lose.

"You'd almost think they are uncomfortable about having a fair fight with teams that maybe they haven't viewed as a competitor before, and they might be uncomfortable having a fair fight because they have never actually been in one.

"Sport in my mind is a chance for everyone to compete fairly and pretty equitably. It is like a heavyweight boxer who only wants to fight middleweights."

He described reducing the budget cap to $150m as "rounding around the edges" at a time when some companies are "adjusting half their business, not 14%".

The bigger teams are also suspicious that some of their rivals are using the current crisis as a rare opportunity to hobble the big teams.

There is a split too over what to do about the delayed regulations. Brown is among those wanting them to come into force in 2022 as currently agreed, but Horner is pushing for them to be delayed by a further year to 2023.

Brown says he expects the meeting to be tense.

"There is a divide," he says. "Not a 50-50 divide. I would say it's more 80-20. The reality is you can survive with 80% (of the teams), but you can't survive with 20."

What about McLaren's furlough?

McLaren last week became the first team to admit that they had put some staff on furlough as a response to the lack of racing.

Brown said it was the "toughest decision I've had to make" but said McLaren had no choice, even though they are one of the richest teams outside the top three.

"While we're a well-funded racing team," he said, "everyone has their limits - and as it relates to F1, it is no secret we lose a lot of money and my shareholders want value creation out of F1. So just letting the losses widen is not an option.

"I don't have an unlimited cheque book, so it was the responsible thing to do, and quite frankly I am disappointed but not surprised that many teams haven't already followed suit.

"I know some have, but some haven't. And I think there is a real danger in F1 that we as an industry can put our head in the sand on topics and now is not the time to put your head in the sand."
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Old 06-04-20, 03:17 PM   #477
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Bayern Munich and Bundesliga clubs return to training

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52176562

Bayern Munich were among a number of Bundesliga clubs to return to training for the first time since the campaign was halted by the coronavirus pandemic.

The champions trained in groups of five but without any contact, as did Borussia Monchengladbach and Wolfsburg.

Bottom side Paderborn worked in small groups and coach Steffen Baumgart said it was important for players to "get the ball on their feet again".

Germany's top flight has been suspended since 13 March until at least 30 April.

"It was certainly a very unusual feeling holding a training session in small groups today, but it was also nice to see the boys in person again," said Bayern captain Manuel Neuer.

Training began with a warm-up routine, followed by running and shooting drills and technical training which were "elements in which the necessary social distancing can be adhered to."

The German champions said all hygiene measures were "strictly observed" and no members of the public were present.

For the past two weeks Bayern players and staff had taken part in "cyber training".

Bayern were top of the league at the time of the season being stopped, four points clear of Borussia Dortmund.
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Old 06-04-20, 03:28 PM   #478
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Old 06-04-20, 06:34 PM   #479
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We aren't taking the government cash now. Good stuff.

https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/ann...ool-supporters
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Old 06-04-20, 06:53 PM   #480
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Wrong decision initially but good on them for listening.
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