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Old 27-10-19, 04:32 PM   #41
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I am wondering if it will be as significant in years to come as footballs now are much lighter than they used to be previously but how much heading of the ball went on in the 50's/60's/70's compared to now? I have no idea, before my time. A lighter ball but more frequent heading may be as damaging.

Obviously at some point kids are going to need to learn to head a ball and it should be up to medical professionals and not ex-players or managers to opine what age the risks become sufficiently reduced to be acceptable.
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Old 01-11-20, 03:52 PM   #42
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Bobby Charlton has been diagnosed with dementia.
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Old 01-11-20, 06:32 PM   #43
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Bobby Charlton has been diagnosed with dementia.
I saw this. He's about a hundred years old, so pretty much impossible to tell if it's down to repeated, minor head trauma or because he's ancient.
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Old 01-11-20, 06:51 PM   #44
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Bobby Charlton has been diagnosed with dementia.

A horrible disease that steals your memories and I’ve been through it with both parents. Not nice to hear about such a legend of the game but thankful he is knocking on a bit and didn’t get struck down with it in his sixties...

Best of luck, Bobby... YNWA
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Old 01-11-20, 06:54 PM   #45
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I saw this. He's about a hundred years old, so pretty much impossible to tell if it's down to repeated, minor head trauma or because he's ancient.
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Old 01-11-20, 07:24 PM   #46
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Harsh
To be fair he is 83 so you can't tell whether it's football. I don't recall him doing a lot of headers.
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Old 01-11-20, 07:37 PM   #47
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Didn't mean in it in a disrespectful way.

Both of my late grandmothers had it - well one dementia and the other Alzheimers which I believe is a strain of the former. The one was in perfect health until 92, went on to deteriorate badly and passed at 95. The other was not so fortunate, she got it in her late 70s and lived the last decade of her life in uncertainty. On a good day she knew everything, on a bad one she didn't know who any of her family were. To my knowledge, I'm fairly certain neither of them participated in contact sports.

If I don't know who I am at 70, is it because of my family history or because I've headed footballs and was punched repeatedly in a boxing ring?
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Old 01-11-20, 07:39 PM   #48
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I don't know why I posted that
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Old 17-12-20, 10:42 PM   #49
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Probably the best thread for this, surprised no one has posted already:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55352368

The Premier League has said it hopes to start permanent concussion substitution trials from January.

It follows football's lawmakers, the International Football Association Board (Ifab), approving trials in 2021.

The new rule means permanent substitutions can be made if a player suffers a head injury, even if all replacements have already been used.

To avoid potential abuse of the rule, opposition teams will also be able to make a change at the same time.

However, Premier League clubs have voted against the use of five substitutes for a third time, despite Ifab's confirming an extension to the rule on Wednesday.

Instead, the number of top-flight players allowed on the bench has increased from seven to nine.

This measure will come into effect from matchday 14, which begins on Saturday.

"With player welfare the Premier League's priority, clubs agreed in principle to introduce additional permanent concussion substitutions following approval of the trial by the International Football Association Board yesterday," the Premier League said on Thursday.

"The Premier League will look to implement protocols which will allow a maximum of two concussion substitutes to be used per team, with the opposition side able to use the equivalent number.

"The additional concussion substitutions may be made regardless of the number of substitutions a team has made already."

Speaking before the latest decision not to allow five substitutes, Football Association chief executive Mark Bullingham said he was "surprised" top-flight clubs had not approved the change.

Bullingham also said clubs still competing in the FA Cup would be allowed to make five substitutions.

"I think when we started off at Ifab level, we fully expected all of the leading leagues to sign it off for the reason of a very congested season with a lack of pre-season," said Bullingham.

Speaking about permanent concussion substitutes, he added: "I think we have to state clearly why permanent substitutes are better.

"We had a concussion expert group pulled together by Fifa and Ifab to look at this and their view is very firmly that it's safer."

Concussion substitutes were set to be introduced at the football competitions of the 2020 Tokyo Olympics before the Games were postponed until 2021 because of coronavirus.

The ability to gather a more accurate diagnosis of head injuries has been in the spotlight after several members of England's 1966 World Cup-winning team were diagnosed with dementia.

Stiles and Jack Charlton, who both died earlier this year, had dementia, while Sir Bobby Charlton's family recently revealed he had been diagnosed with the disease.

Former Tottenham defender Jan Vertonghen also recently explained how he had felt the effects of a concussion he sustained playing for Spurs for the following nine months.
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Old 29-07-21, 11:11 AM   #50
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Concerns raised over how football clubs will enforce new heading restrictions
  • Adherence to guidance of 10 headers per week not policed
  • Dr Michael Grey queries no distinctions for women or children

Nick Ames

Wed 28 Jul 2021 19.17 BST

Clubs in English football may be required to significantly adapt their training methods after the game’s leading bodies agreed new guidance to limit the number of headers players are allowed to make.

The recommendations will restrict footballers to 10 “higher-force” headers a week in training amid continued investigations into the potential health risks associated with regularly heading a ball, which could include dementia. They were announced on Wednesday by the Football Association, Premier League, English Football League, Professional Footballers’ Association and League Managers Association, and include stipulations for the professional and amateur games.

It follows multiple studies undertaken in recent months by a subgroup of the Professional Football Negotiating and Consultative Committee, which involved a cohort of players from Liverpool’s under-23, under-18 and women’s teams, and Manchester City’s under-18 and women’s teams.

The development is expected to be broadly welcomed within the game although questions have been raised about the practicality of enforcement and there have been calls for the guidance to go further, particularly where considerations around women and children are concerned.

Higher-force headers were defined in a joint statement by the authorities as “typically headers following a long pass (more than 35m) or from crosses, corners and free-kicks”. It pointed out additionally that the majority of headers involve “low forces”. Nonetheless, clubs that observe the guidance to the letter are likely to find training for set pieces, a cornerstone of preparations at all levels, particularly challenging given the number of aerial duels traditionally involved.

In further detail, the guidelines suggest clubs limit the number of headers carried out when a player takes three or more steps and runs on to the ball, or dives to meet it. They also propose that players hone heading technique using thrown passes, which involve “lower peak accelerations”.

For adult amateur football, it is recommended heading practice is limited to 10 headers per session, undertaken in one session per week. The statement said this guidance was “to reduce overall exposure to heading without compromising development of technique and the role heading plays in the English game”.

The FA chef executive, Mark Bullingham, said: “These measures have been developed following studies with coaches and medics and represent a cautious approach whilst we learn more. We are committed to further medical research to gain an understanding of any risks within football; in the meantime this reduces a potential risk factor.”

Professional clubs will be encouraged to ensure players have adequate time after matches to recover from heading. The studies found “early but limited evidence” that greater neck muscle strength may contribute to safer heading and research will be conducted into how that may developed safely.

Clubs’ adherence to the guidance will not be policed although they are expected to take it seriously. Some figures in the game have wondered how, in practice, it can be applied in a competitive training session. The statement said “it is essential that club staff monitor each player’s heading practice in real time” and that clubs should develop profiles detailing the nature of the headers each player usually undertakes.

Dr Michael Grey, a football and dementia expert from the University of East Anglia who gave evidence to the government’s “concussion in sport” report last week, welcomed the guidelines but expressed some reservations.

“It remains unclear on what basis these specific FA limitations have been made and how the new guidance will be enforced,” he said. “The recommendations make no distinction based on gender despite growing evidence that women are more susceptible to head injury than are men. There are biological differences between male and female in both structure and physiology that warrant a more considered approach.”

Grey also said that an outright ban on heading in younger children should be considered. Children at primary school are not allowed to head the ball in training.

The ramifications of heading have come under intense scrutiny in recent years. A study by the University of Glasgow in 2019 found former footballers were three and a half times more likely to die of neurodegenerative diseases. This month an MPs’ inquiry said sport had been allowed to “mark its own homework” in reducing brain injury risks.
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Old 29-07-21, 11:23 AM   #51
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Obviously it is a really important issue and it's good to see that it is being given consideration in football. But it seems that these plans really haven't been well thought out by those in the game, set pieces are such a massive part of the game limiting practice to 10 headers (per person) per week will presumably have a significant effect on teams, particularly those who rely alot on set pieces.

I think that unless scientific evidence can be carried out to demonstrate safe heading of the ball we will probably reach a point in a few years where heading will be removed from the game.
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Old 29-07-21, 11:58 AM   #52
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Obviously it is a really important issue and it's good to see that it is being given consideration in football. But it seems that these plans really haven't been well thought out by those in the game, set pieces are such a massive part of the game limiting practice to 10 headers (per person) per week will presumably have a significant effect on teams, particularly those who rely alot on set pieces.

I think that unless scientific evidence can be carried out to demonstrate safe heading of the ball we will probably reach a point in a few years where heading will be removed from the game.
I think that will be the end point, that heading is taken out of the game.

It will be met, like any big change with huge resistance and older people harkening back to the days when a man was a man and could head a football but if enough scientific evidence is there, it should be an easy decision.

It would definitely alter how the game is played but some more than others given there are already teams who employ strategies to minimise aerial balls and those who do the opposite, but potentially even for the better as it would surely result in more focus on better technical and passing play.
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Old 29-07-21, 12:14 PM   #53
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How do they deal with this in boxing?
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Old 29-07-21, 12:52 PM   #54
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How do they deal with this in boxing?
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Old 29-07-21, 01:29 PM   #55
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Imagine no headers in football… you’d have head ball as well as hand ball… they’d prob have to change corners- maybe you take it from where the box meets the line or something. Also, at least it would make calling offsides a lot easier- the any part of your body that ya can play the ball with, would be a lot simplified!
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Old 29-07-21, 02:03 PM   #56
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Imagine no headers in football… you’d have head ball as well as hand ball… they’d prob have to change corners- maybe you take it from where the box meets the line or something. Also, at least it would make calling offsides a lot easier- the any part of your body that ya can play the ball with, would be a lot simplified!
Type of centre backs and probably team structure would also change.
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Old 29-07-21, 08:15 PM   #57
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Boxing is going to be banned anytime soon then I presume.

Seems a strange one to me. Its a hazard of the job, or at least it might have been back when balls used to get waterlogged and therefore much heavier. Fair enough, cut down in training but where does it end. No risk allowed whatsoever..
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Old 29-07-21, 10:42 PM   #58
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Imagine no headers in football… you’d have head ball as well as hand ball… they’d prob have to change corners- maybe you take it from where the box meets the line or something. Also, at least it would make calling offsides a lot easier- the any part of your body that ya can play the ball with, would be a lot simplified!
Protective head gear would surely be preferred over no headers and maybe even just for centre backs..?
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Old 29-07-21, 11:45 PM   #59
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Boxing is going to be banned anytime soon then I presume.

Seems a strange one to me. Its a hazard of the job, or at least it might have been back when balls used to get waterlogged and therefore much heavier. Fair enough, cut down in training but where does it end. No risk allowed whatsoever..


You ban boxing, UFC or any other combat sport and it goes under ground even more than now.
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Old 30-07-21, 12:15 AM   #60
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Protective head gear would surely be preferred over no headers and maybe even just for centre backs..?
Head protection proven scientifically to be worse than no headgear. In milliseconds it creates a double impact. First from the initial contact then from the headgear recoil making secondary contact. Hence headgear in amateur boxing has been outlawed in some competitions. Although cuts, swelling etc play a bigger part which isn't a problem in football.

It's a difficult one to see because we need to wait a generation to see the impact of these changes. I don't see the rules changing any time soon. I would also like to know how many footballers suffer from head trauma related diseases. I'd assume it's minimal. The best bet would be to educate people and they can then decide if they want to participate in the sport or not.

The majority of retired footballers live long lives and seem to be in generally good health with low rates of violent behaviour etc. which would indicate it's not terrible at this stage. Whereas in retired American football players you see all of them doing strange things after a career, including suicide and deteriorating physical health, presence of stumbling, slurring etc. In boxing when looking at guys with more than 25-30 fights it's flipping a coin. Condition could be perfectly fine to dead 15 years after their careers are over.

Whilst the heading is one to watch out for, I doubt anything drastic will be done yet at a professional level.
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Old 30-07-21, 06:11 AM   #61
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If it's an issue, headgear won't prevent it because it's your brain hitting the inside of your skull repetitively over time that will do the damage.
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Old 30-07-21, 07:24 AM   #62
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Got to also remember a lot of these old players were heading footballs that used to get extremely waterlogged and weigh a tonne. The footballs now are light as. The damage being done would be nowhere near as much.
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Old 30-07-21, 02:30 PM   #63
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Got to also remember a lot of these old players were heading footballs that used to get extremely waterlogged and weigh a tonne. The footballs now are light as. The damage being done would be nowhere near as much.
Read an article claiming that the light and aerodynamic nature of modern balls mean that they travel a lot faster resulting in greater force despite being lighter. If that is however true, it's unlikely the weight disparity would make that much of a difference as the tempo more than counteracts that.
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Old 30-07-21, 02:46 PM   #64
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No idea on the science side of things but having played with old balls (early 90's) and the new ones, the new ones definitely feel easier to head. The old ones used to almost knock you out if you headed it wrong I don't think the new ones travel anywhere near as fast as the older balls either, they are too light and lose velocity quicker i reckon. Those old tango's or the Mitre's, man when you hit one of them sweetly the thing would rip the fucking net off its moorings. These new ones suck IMO,

And if you took a volley to the face with an old wet ball then forget about it. Game over brain.
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Old 30-07-21, 03:48 PM   #65
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But again it does not matter about the physics of the ball because it is the physics of any sort of knock to the head of the brain hitting the internal wall of the skull that can cause damage done over and over again.

They are even starting to see links to sports where there is no head contact but fast repetitive head movement I e skeleton.
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Old 30-07-21, 04:10 PM   #66
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Says who?

Surely a heavier object will cause more recoil.

Or would a tennis ball have the same effect?
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Old 30-07-21, 06:19 PM   #67
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Says who?

Surely a heavier object will cause more recoil.

Or would a tennis ball have the same effect?
So not to be misunderstood, the weight of the object may be a variable that effects the severity of the disease (I haven't seen reports or research specifically on this but am no expert in this field) but there is already early research to suggest that even repetitive head shaking without any knock from an external object can lead to higher incidences of trauma:

Source: https://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-sports/55129090

Peter McCarthy, a leading expert in brain injuries and sport from the University of South Wales, has called for a "concerted worldwide effort" to assess the impact completing skeleton runs can have on the head and brain.

"The major issue is that unless a person gets concussed, it's unlikely that any of the basic head or neck issues will be addressed and the person will be able to continue based on a self-certification that they are fine," he told BBC Sport.

"There are a number of different ways of damaging or compromising the brain. Shaking them regularly at a high or low frequency are going to cause some level of brain trauma, maybe damage over longer periods.

"If you get them repetitively, especially the vibrational ones and the sharp shocks, and they are not noticed or addressed, it is a cumulative injury. There are issues associated with the long-term effects of that, and in the later years, it becomes akin to things like dementia and maybe Parkinson's and so on.



The reasons for this are that the brain sits in fluid within the skull and that fluid is there to protect it. When someone takes a knock to the head there is the force of the blow but also the brain sliding around hitting the inside of the skull.

So it's possible that even a certain lower frequency of heading even with lighter balls is still doing significant damage over a longer period of time due to the cumulative effects of many small knocks
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Old 31-07-21, 04:01 AM   #68
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But again it does not matter about the physics of the ball because it is the physics of any sort of knock to the head of the brain hitting the internal wall of the skull that can cause damage done over and over again.

They are even starting to see links to sports where there is no head contact but fast repetitive head movement I e skeleton.
It does matter. Hitting your head against a rock or a balloon is going to have different degrees of damage. All head knocks may indeed do damage, but whats causing that damage definitely matters.
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Old 31-07-21, 07:14 AM   #69
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It does matter. Hitting your head against a rock or a balloon is going to have different degrees of damage. All head knocks may indeed do damage, but whats causing that damage definitely matters.
So again, yes it is likely a variable as I said above but it does not matter to the extent that any proven link between heading footballs or any other object will likely eventually lead to heading being taken out of the game in my opinion.
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Old 31-07-21, 07:44 AM   #70
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No you said it doesn't matter about the physics of the ball. It most definitely does.

If they take heading out of the game they might as well just bin everything and start a new game. Or you just leave it in the players hands (or heads) to know the risks they're taking playing the game in a certain way? This palming off of liability these days is a massive cop out IMO. Players know full well the risk they take playing certain sports or putting their bodies on the line.
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Old 31-07-21, 08:28 AM   #71
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No you said it doesn't matter about the physics of the ball. It most definitely does.

If they take heading out of the game they might as well just bin everything and start a new game. Or you just leave it in the players hands (or heads) to know the risks they're taking playing the game in a certain way? This palming off of liability these days is a massive cop out IMO. Players know full well the risk they take playing certain sports or putting their bodies on the line.
but you're not acknowledging the second clause of the sentence written after the because in what I said about the physics of getting any sort of head knock which sets the context for the first clause about the physics of the ball.

Of course if you take that part of the sentence on its own out of context then it's not true.

I don't agree it would be a worthless game without heading nor that the players know full well the risks. That's the point of some of the legal actions that have been taken.

I think it will depend on what the risk relationship is. If the risks are well communicated and the players sign away their concerns then that's fine in my opinion.

If the risks turn out to be much higher than 3x more likely to get dementia than the average, then there is a moral question to it, given that it is not a necessary industry nor in my opinion a necessary part of the sport i.e the sport of football could technically function without it.
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Old 31-07-21, 10:38 AM   #72
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but you're not acknowledging the second clause of the sentence written after the because in what I said about the physics of getting any sort of head knock which sets the context for the first clause about the physics of the ball.

Of course if you take that part of the sentence on its own out of context then it's not true.

I don't agree it would be a worthless game without heading nor that the players know full well the risks. That's the point of some of the legal actions that have been taken.

I think it will depend on what the risk relationship is. If the risks are well communicated and the players sign away their concerns then that's fine in my opinion.

If the risks turn out to be much higher than 3x more likely to get dementia than the average, then there is a moral question to it, given that it is not a necessary industry nor in my opinion a necessary part of the sport i.e the sport of football could technically function without it.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say anymore to be honest. That reads like gibberish man. Clause?? WTF

Im not discounting any of what you've said, any form of head knock is going to cause damage. Fine. But you're never going to convince me what youre getting hit in the head by doesn't matter. It absolutely does. Would you rather be punched in the head by a 5 yr old kid or Mike Tyson?
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Old 31-07-21, 01:26 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Harv View Post
I don't even understand what you're trying to say anymore to be honest. That reads like gibberish man. Clause?? WTF

Im not discounting any of what you've said, any form of head knock is going to cause damage. Fine. But you're never going to convince me what youre getting hit in the head by doesn't matter. It absolutely does. Would you rather be punched in the head by a 5 yr old kid or Mike Tyson?
a clause is a part of a sentence, usually after a comma or a conjunction. Yea of course I'd rather the 5 year old anyday
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Old 31-07-21, 01:38 PM   #74
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But would you rather be punched in the head by 100 5-year old Mike Tysons or 1 normal size Mike Tyson?
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Old 31-07-21, 02:23 PM   #75
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Isnt this just an English study?

Fair enough... we outlaw heading. Wont the rest of the world carry on regardless unless there is a unified response. The money and players will go elsewhere if the product here is inferior.

Pretty sure the speed of the ball is determined by mass and force with which its hit , so if the ball is lighter and travels faster it pretty much means the same result... Thats not to say every cross is going to be hit at full whack, so the energy in a newer ball will be less if hit at the same speed.

I was never one to head the ball anyway, but I wonder how workable this can be. Make touching the ball with your head a foul like hand ball? Cant work out if this would give an advantage to long ball teams, or not.
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Last edited by Charly; 31-07-21 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 31-07-21, 02:54 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corndog View Post
a clause is a part of a sentence, usually after a comma or a conjunction. Yea of course I'd rather the 5 year old anyday
it still makes no sense
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Old 19-08-21, 12:24 PM   #77
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Denis law has just announced he has dementia
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Old 19-08-21, 12:58 PM   #78
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Going back to something that was mentioned earlier, regarding the way footballs have changed from big, leather lumps to the lightweight versions we see today, are there any more modern players who are known to have early signs of dementia, or is it too early to know? The announcements that I have seen seem to involve the players of the past generation, when heading must have been akin to getting punched in the head by a heavyweight?
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Old 19-08-21, 04:19 PM   #79
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Can't think of anyone apart from Kane
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Old 19-08-21, 05:58 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fivex View Post
Can't think of anyone apart from Kane
I shouldn't but
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