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Old 20-10-17, 11:52 PM   #1921
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Keegan supported Toshack and Kenny played off Rush. Get it?

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Old 21-10-17, 06:29 AM   #1922
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Keegan wasn't prolific, nor Kenny for many of his seasons with us. They brought something more to the team than goals. Which was the point of the article.

You comprehend?
Well she specifically mentioned the players she did because they were all on the books under Rodgers and Klopp, who both played with a similar attacking style, using a fluid front free, not suited for the archetypal CF. They were all either shoehorned into the first 11 to the detriment of the team, or binned at the first opportunity.

She purposely didn't mention Suarez or Sturridge, not because they were better players and prove her theory wrong, but because they suited the system and therefore flourished. Suarez also wasn't a proper CF, couldn't finish and didn't have the physique, but Rodgers played him there despite the initial criticism. Sturridge was signed as a more recognisable no.9, but he was capable of playing wide and dropping deep, so suited the system perfectly.

Likewise she didn't mention teh likes of Torres, Owen, Fowler, even Heskey because they all suited they system they played under their respective managers.
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Old 21-10-17, 12:45 PM   #1923
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Been banging that drum for a while. Belotti is an awesome player who brings nearly everything Firmino does to the striker role but is far more clinical.

Him and Firmino in the same team with Salah and Mane on the flanks would be hell for teams to defend against.

Belotti plays well as a lone attacker but links well when played as part of a two or three player attack, and he interchanges very well.


The guy has the sort of work rate that would have Dirk Kuyt giving a nod of approval and can mix it when players try to kick him out of a game.

If Coutinho wants out come January or the summer, then would love to wsee us throw a chunk of that money towards Belotti and let Firmino play in the attacking midfielder/support striker role that he did so well in for Hoffenheim.
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Old 21-10-17, 12:53 PM   #1924
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The Firmino as a CF argument is going around in circles so have to agree to disagree. It's a nothing article as far as my small mind can comprehend so best leave it at that.

To be clear I think Firmino is a very good player, he will score goals and have some great games, that is a given... whether or not it will be enough goals remains to be seen. His work rate is always going to be excellent, that is also a given but he was brought to LFC because of the production he was getting from an attacking midfield area & looked brilliant there. Whether it is got to do with a serious lack of striking options or simply that Klopp prefers Firmino there is up for debate and well we will not know until the summer when we go back into the market whether Klopp will look to buy in that area.

Question for Red, at the start of next season would you like to see Firmino in his current striking role?
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Old 21-10-17, 01:00 PM   #1925
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How many goals he scores is irrelevant if we end up sharing them across the team.
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Old 21-10-17, 01:10 PM   #1926
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Well she specifically mentioned the players she did because they were all on the books under Rodgers and Klopp, who both played with a similar attacking style, using a fluid front free, not suited for the archetypal CF. They were all either shoehorned into the first 11 to the detriment of the team, or binned at the first opportunity.

She purposely didn't mention Suarez or Sturridge, not because they were better players and prove her theory wrong, but because they suited the system and therefore flourished. Suarez also wasn't a proper CF, couldn't finish and didn't have the physique, but Rodgers played him there despite the initial criticism. Sturridge was signed as a more recognisable no.9, but he was capable of playing wide and dropping deep, so suited the system perfectly.

Likewise she didn't mention teh likes of Torres, Owen, Fowler, even Heskey because they all suited they system they played under their respective managers.
Suarez was more prolific at Ajax than he was with us! She didn't use him and Sturridge in his prime precisely because they counter her argument. Lethal goal scorers who also provided great movement and assists. It is eminently possible to have the best of both worlds.
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Old 21-10-17, 01:11 PM   #1927
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How many goals he scores is irrelevant if we end up sharing them across the team.
And when you look at our chances converted rate in the PL, do we?
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Old 21-10-17, 01:12 PM   #1928
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How many goals he scores is irrelevant if we end up sharing them across the team.
Well it's pretty relevant really isn't it to be fair & why not have both likes of City? There are CF's out there with great work rate that bang in 25+ goals every season. Why not have that option in our side to compliment that goals coming from wide areas?

Name a team that has won the league and not had a main striker smashing goals in? There are very, very few & that is not a coincidence having a guy that takes chances when others can't and gets you 3 points when it is looking like you're getting only 1 point.

Firmino is a quality player that has excelled in an attacking midfield role his whole career & precisely why we bought him. Phil will be off next season, would you rather us keep Firmino there and have Keita in for Phil or push Firmino back to his proper position & buy a striker than bangs in loads of goals to compliment the goals shared across other areas of the team?
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Old 21-10-17, 01:13 PM   #1929
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And when you look at our chances converted rate in the PL, do we?
our is 11.4%, City's is 23.6%, United's 23.6%.

14th in chances converted, the teams below us are West Ham, Everton, Bournemouth, Palace, Huddersfield, Southampton.
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Old 21-10-17, 01:21 PM   #1930
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Well it's pretty relevant really isn't it to be fair & why not have both likes of City? There are CF's out there with great work rate that bang in 25+ goals every season. Why not have that option in our side to compliment that goals coming from wide areas?

Name a team that has won the league and not had a main striker smashing goals in? There are very, very few & that is not a coincidence having a guy that takes chances when others can't and gets you 3 points when it is looking like you're getting only 1 point.

Firmino is a quality player that has excelled in an attacking midfield role his whole career & precisely why we bought him. Phil will be off next season, would you rather us keep Firmino there and have Keita in for Phil or push Firmino back to his proper position & buy a striker than bangs in loads of goals to compliment the goals shared across other areas of the team?
AC Milan and Valencia come to mind.
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Old 21-10-17, 01:22 PM   #1931
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Well the figures don't show the full story and doesn't say that this is not going to change in the future and we won't improve.

I'd rather have Firminho than Lukaku for instance, who's lazy and somewhat one dimensional. The point is there aren't a lot of players who could do a better job than Firminho overall.
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Old 21-10-17, 01:28 PM   #1932
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our is 11.4%, City's is 23.6%, United's 23.6%.

14th in chances converted, the teams below us are West Ham, Everton, Bournemouth, Palace, Huddersfield, Southampton.
Very small sample size though.
Do the same for the CL games - that won't mean anything either
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Old 21-10-17, 02:05 PM   #1933
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Well the figures don't show the full story and doesn't say that this is not going to change in the future and we won't improve.

I'd rather have Firminho than Lukaku for instance, who's lazy and somewhat one dimensional. The point is there aren't a lot of players who could do a better job than Firminho overall.
But Klopp signed Lewandowski and Aubamenang whilst at Dortmund, two goal machines that offer little of nothing from a defensive side of things. One dimensional but both considered two of the best at scoring goals who had players around them chipping in with goals aswell. Same as he had DM's midfielders in Kehl and Bender at Dortmund but at LFC has none. Total change in the way he has set up a team during his whole career or is he just making do with what he has at LFC?

And the figures could get worse. We have all watched the games so we know that it actually does tell the full story about the sitters we have missed that should have us near the top of the table.
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Old 22-10-17, 08:57 AM   #1934
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Suarez was more prolific at Ajax than he was with us! She didn't use him and Sturridge in his prime precisely because they counter her argument. Lethal goal scorers who also provided great movement and assists. It is eminently possible to have the best of both worlds.


I genuinely still can't work out if you're on a proper wind up or reverting back to your Operation days. I really hope it's not the latter.

I'll ignore the first part of your post as it's just nonsense, and concentrate on the last line. This is your key argument and in isolation it's completely fair. If we could get a player that does what Firmino does, but score more, of course we would be better off. Jaco (one of the few people that makes fair points in this debate) suggested Belotti and he could well be right, I haven't seen enough of him to judge. If i had to pick a player myself, I'd love Jesus (ignoring Suarez obviously).

What isn't fair enough is that every time we have a poor result (or even a decent one but Firmino doesn't score) the same shit is peddled by the same people, in forums, in pubs, in phone in's and by shit pundits. Liverpool need a proper No.9, a finisher (I'll not go through the endless list of cliches). The general assumption is put any half decent finisher up front for us and we'll be a much better team (I think your suggestion is Vardy, because he works hard, ignoring that to get the best out of Vardy he has to play on the shoulder of the last defender, which he can't do in our system). Melissa is actually quite generous in her article using two of the league's best for comparison and Dan Perkins likes to rhyme off the world's best, ignoring how attainable they are, but it normally only gets that far after the initial "no.9" comments are challenged.

How we've got so many airmiles out of this is beyond me. The key argument is that many fans feel that it's a system flaw, that we'd be much better off if we played an orthodox CF, one that doesn't drop deep or move out wide. The names are irrelevant, they are just fluff to keep this circular argument going (something I need to remind myself and not get drawn in). The other, more disturbing issue, is that for some fans it's seems to be a case of 'anybody but Firmino'. We had quite a few on here calling for Mane to play CF and Solanki at start a crucial game against Maribor FFS.
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Old 22-10-17, 09:06 AM   #1935
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The Firmino as a CF argument is going around in circles so have to agree to disagree. It's a nothing article as far as my small mind can comprehend so best leave it at that.

To be clear I think Firmino is a very good player, he will score goals and have some great games, that is a given... whether or not it will be enough goals remains to be seen. His work rate is always going to be excellent, that is also a given but he was brought to LFC because of the production he was getting from an attacking midfield area & looked brilliant there. Whether it is got to do with a serious lack of striking options or simply that Klopp prefers Firmino there is up for debate and well we will not know until the summer when we go back into the market whether Klopp will look to buy in that area.

Question for Red, at the start of next season would you like to see Firmino in his current striking role?
I think he's a phenomenal player and expect him improve as the season progresses, so if that's the case, then yes. Ideally I'd like better competition for him, but i agreed with Klopp when he said that the amount of money it would cost to replace Sturridge, it wouldn't be worth it, so I'd prefer we concentrate on other areas.

Just that question reminds of of being ridiculed for suggesting that Suarez would score more than 20 goals at the beginning of 13/14. The idea was so preposterous to some fans at the time that I had to put it as my signature (although I think I predicted 20 assists too ).

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Old 22-10-17, 09:09 AM   #1936
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How accurate is this article from when we signed him BTW? Almost as if Klopp wrote it himself.

https://www.est1892.co.uk/forums/sho...&postcount=153
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Old 22-10-17, 09:20 AM   #1937
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I do wonder if Klopp will revert to a 4-2-3-1.

Firmino does the running required in a pressing system, but he doesn't make those movements that top strikers do on a regular basis. He is underrated by opposition fans, but overrated by ours. You'd think he was the second coming of Balotelli or Suarez, depending on who you listen to, when he's neither.

I've no idea on the make-up of a Keita and Henderson CM in a 2. I don't expect Coutinho to be here next season, but Firmino in a No.10, and a quality CF could be just as good. Whether Klopp has settled on the notion of a 3 man midfield in this league permanently, I don't know.

To be clear, when Firmino played in a No.10 during his first season with us, I thought he was dogshit. However, what he's learned during his switch to a CF role could be incredibly beneficial to us going forward, with his perspective on what to do in advanced attacking positions, and knowing how intense this league is.
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Old 22-10-17, 09:27 AM   #1938
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I do wonder if Klopp will revert to a 4-2-3-1.

Firmino does the running required in a pressing system, but he doesn't make those movements that top strikers do on a regular basis. He is underrated by opposition fans, but overrated by ours. You'd think he was the second coming of Balotelli or Suarez, depending on who you listen to, when he's neither.

I've no idea on the make-up of a Keita and Henderson CM in a 2. I don't expect Coutinho to be here next season, but Firmino in a No.10, and a quality CF could be just as good. Whether Klopp has settled on the notion of a 3 man midfield in this league permanently, I don't know.

To be clear, when Firmino played in a No.10 during his first season with us, I thought he was dogshit. However, what he's learned during his switch to a CF role could be incredibly beneficial to us going forward, with his perspective on what to do in advanced attacking positions, and knowing how intense this league is.
Did he play No.10 in his first year? I genuinely can't remember. He was in and out of the side first half of the season, but when he hit that January purple patch, I would have sworn he was playing RW.
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Old 22-10-17, 09:33 AM   #1939
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I'm pretty sure it was Lallana on the RW, Firmino as AM, and Coutinho as LW.
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Old 22-10-17, 09:52 AM   #1940
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I genuinely still can't work out if you're on a proper wind up or reverting back to your Operation days. I really hope it's not the latter.

I'll ignore the first part of your post as it's just nonsense, and concentrate on the last line. This is your key argument and in isolation it's completely fair. If we could get a player that does what Firmino does, but score more, of course we would be better off. Jaco (one of the few people that makes fair points in this debate) suggested Belotti and he could well be right, I haven't seen enough of him to judge. If i had to pick a player myself, I'd love Jesus (ignoring Suarez obviously).

What isn't fair enough is that every time we have a poor result (or even a decent one but Firmino doesn't score) the same shit is peddled by the same people, in forums, in pubs, in phone in's and by shit pundits. Liverpool need a proper No.9, a finisher (I'll not go through the endless list of cliches). The general assumption is put any half decent finisher up front for us and we'll be a much better team (I think your suggestion is Vardy, because he works hard, ignoring that to get the best out of Vardy he has to play on the shoulder of the last defender, which he can't do in our system). Melissa is actually quite generous in her article using two of the league's best for comparison and Dan Perkins likes to rhyme off the world's best, ignoring how attainable they are, but it normally only gets that far after the initial "no.9" comments are challenged.

How we've got so many airmiles out of this is beyond me. The key argument is that many fans feel that it's a system flaw, that we'd be much better off if we played an orthodox CF, one that doesn't drop deep or move out wide. The names are irrelevant, they are just fluff to keep this circular argument going (something I need to remind myself and not get drawn in). The other, more disturbing issue, is that for some fans it's seems to be a case of 'anybody but Firmino'. We had quite a few on here calling for Mane to play CF and Solanki at start a crucial game against Maribor FFS.
Suarez scored a bucket loads for Ajax, more goals per game than he did with us, it's not nonsense to use that to counter the nonsense suggestion that he wasn't really a goal machine before we Brendan made him so.

And you can't have a go at me because other people say stuff. I started this discussion (it was a few pages back now) by saying that moving Firmino in to the more advanced role was a bad idea because he isn't clinical enough in front of goal. Not that he shouldn't play, or that we need 'a traditional number 9' or that our system needs tearing up, and I haven't veered from that since.

I suggested Vardy not simply because he works hard, but because he has the pace to keep up with our wingers, very good movement around the box, is a better finisher and has similar work rate to Firmino. Probably not the perfect fit but said in the context of us playing Leicester and him demonstrating those qualities.
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Old 22-10-17, 10:18 AM   #1941
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Suarez scored a bucket loads for Ajax, more goals per game than he did with us, it's not nonsense to use that to counter the nonsense suggestion that he wasn't really a goal machine before we Brendan made him so.

And you can't have a go at me because other people say stuff. I started this discussion (it was a few pages back now) by saying that moving Firmino in to the more advanced role was a bad idea because he isn't clinical enough in front of goal. Not that he shouldn't play, or that we need 'a traditional number 9' or that our system needs tearing up, and I haven't veered from that since.

I suggested Vardy not simply because he works hard, but because he has the pace to keep up with our wingers, very good movement around the box, is a better finisher and has similar work rate to Firmino. Probably not the perfect fit but said in the context of us playing Leicester and him demonstrating those qualities.
But what's that got to do with anything, who said he wasn't a goal machine? Her article was about people saying we need a certain type of CF, in the mould of Kane/Lukaku, it had nothing to do with Suarez. She mentioned the players she did as they are more similar to those two, signed as natural CF's, not wide/versatile attackers like Suarez was.

I'm not having a go and regardless of what you said previously, this discussion was on the back of MR's article when she was making a specific point. Due to your posting style, it's hard to gauge if you were just responding for a reaction or you do believe what you are saying and therefore ignoring/missing her point.

Which is fine. That's your opinion. I disagree. So does MR and that was the point of her article, she believes Firmino is more suited to our system than a player like Vardy. You disagree with her, hence the sarcastic reply and here we are today.

The internet, eh...
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Old 22-10-17, 10:40 AM   #1942
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[QUOTE=RedReet;3416205]Did he play No.10 in his first year? I genuinely can't remember. He was in and out of the side first half of the season, but when he hit that January purple patch, I would have sworn he was playing RW.[/QUOTE]

Rodgers left him rot at right wing and then dropped him, then he got injured. Only when Klopp got here was he played centrally consistently.
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Old 22-10-17, 10:49 AM   #1943
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[

Rodgers left him rot at right wing and then dropped him, then he got injured. Only when Klopp got here was he played centrally consistently.


Better memory than me, I thought he was playing RW even after Klopp joined, but that can be excused as Klopp gave us reason to go get drunk and start enjoying matches again.
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Old 04-11-17, 08:40 PM   #1944
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For me, the best signing since Suarez....a genius footballer and an absolute privilege watching him play for us. Cherish it whilst you can!!
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Old 04-11-17, 08:41 PM   #1945
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Absolutely superb today

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Old 04-11-17, 08:45 PM   #1946
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For me, the best signing since Suarez....a genius footballer and an absolute privilege watching him play for us. Cherish it whilst you can!!
Yep I love watching this guy too. Hes an absolute joy to watch.
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Old 04-11-17, 08:45 PM   #1947
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Yeah, great player. He is so crucial for us and in that particular position that he plays. We don't need an out and out striker in that system.
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Old 04-11-17, 09:23 PM   #1948
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The guy is poetry in motion
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Old 04-11-17, 09:24 PM   #1949
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He's boss.
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Old 04-11-17, 09:28 PM   #1950
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For me, the best signing since Suarez....a genius footballer and an absolute privilege watching him play for us. Cherish it whilst you can!!
Agreed 100%. Sometimes goes unnoticed but his work rate is unbelievable, add his superb talent on the ball and hes just magical.
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Old 04-11-17, 09:51 PM   #1951
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tjink its also worth pointing out that he is hardly ever injured and with our record on Injuries thats no mean feat.
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Old 04-11-17, 11:02 PM   #1952
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I wish he'd scored, he deserved it.
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Old 05-11-17, 10:08 AM   #1953
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Another fantastic performance from him yesterday, such a clever player pulling players away out of position allowing the likes of Salah and Mane space.
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Old 05-11-17, 10:22 AM   #1954
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This was world class control that only a Brazilian could do.
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Old 05-11-17, 10:36 AM   #1955
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Incredible performance yesterday, but it happens all too often. Has a toss-up of worldies and stinkers.
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Old 06-11-17, 05:45 AM   #1956
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Incredible performance yesterday, but it happens all too often. Has a toss-up of worldies and stinkers.
+1
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Old 06-11-17, 07:22 AM   #1957
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Incredible performance yesterday, but it happens all too often. Has a toss-up of worldies and stinkers.
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Old 07-11-17, 09:59 AM   #1958
Angryred
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Aye, a lot of the stuff he tries doesn't come off for him but when it does...absolutely sick!
Loving him for it as good for the teams confidence knowing there's a player like this in their team & that's without mentioning Coutinho, Mane, Salah, Sturridge
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Old 07-11-17, 10:22 AM   #1959
foresterbloke
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He's so hard to knock off the ball, and that ball control, run and assist for Oxlade was pure filth..
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Old 07-11-17, 12:18 PM   #1960
SB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angryred View Post
Aye, a lot of the stuff he tries doesn't come off for him but when it does...absolutely sick!
Loving him for it as good for the teams confidence knowing there's a player like this in their team & that's without mentioning Coutinho, Mane, Salah, Sturridge
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Originally Posted by foresterbloke View Post
He's so hard to knock off the ball, and that ball control, run and assist for Oxlade was pure filth..
Fully sic & total filth
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