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est1892
Old 27-05-07, 04:49 PM   #1
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Italian Football

Really really disgusts me. So many of the matches today were fixed. I had heard various reports about some of the matches to be held today, sure enough all came out as expected. The bookies knew in advance what to expect hence the ridiculous odds given for the top teams.

Sure enough- Milan, Lazio and Empoli all threw their games today.

Italian football will never change. Pathetic
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Old 27-05-07, 04:52 PM   #2
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did you have money on it as you were so sure?
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Old 27-05-07, 04:53 PM   #3
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Really really disgusts me. So many of the matches today were fixed. I had heard various reports about some of the matches to be held today, sure enough all came out as expected. The bookies knew in advance what to expect hence the ridiculous odds given for the top teams.

Sure enough- Milan, Lazio and Empoli all threw their games today.

Italian football will never change. Pathetic
Out of interest, what did they have to gain from throwing them?

Or are we just talking simple bribes?
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Old 27-05-07, 08:00 PM   #4
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Italians are so bent they couldn't lie straight in bed.

FACT! (cheers Kaip)
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Old 27-05-07, 09:59 PM   #5
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Against teams fighting relegation. I put a couple of quid on each of Milan, Lazio, Empoli and Cagliari. In the vain hope that the crazy odds offered by the bookies werent because of a fix. Rumours all week have said that the bottom teams were to win because the games were fixed well in advance. The bookies were offering very very small odds on the minnows so it was obvious.

As expected the top teams all lost. Not the first time its happened this season. Happened a few times over the last couple of months. Always at the final run-in.

Pathetic
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Old 28-05-07, 02:18 PM   #6
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Never met a skint bookie mate not even an italian one, Chievo went down because of it though cant see them taking it quietly if your right.
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Old 28-05-07, 04:00 PM   #7
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it shouldn't even be called football... Italians are ***** anyways
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Old 28-05-07, 04:07 PM   #8
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Really really disgusts me. So many of the matches today were fixed. I had heard various reports about some of the matches to be held today, sure enough all came out as expected. The bookies knew in advance what to expect hence the ridiculous odds given for the top teams.

Sure enough- Milan, Lazio and Empoli all threw their games today.

Italian football will never change. Pathetic
they rigged our final too.
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Old 28-05-07, 04:19 PM   #9
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It does go on. A few years ago that great Milan side of the 90s was playing the last game of the season against some team or other. That team needed a draw to stay up and it was rumoured that Milan were gonna let that happen for whatever reason. Can't remember what it was. Anyway it was on C4 and it was the direst game imagineable and had 0-0 written all over it from the first whistle and bear in mind this team had Papin, Simmone, Boban, Savecevic et al playing for them!
5 min from the end I think it was Donadoni let fly towards goal and it flew in totally against plan. What followed was fucking shameful. A player was immediately allowed by the Milan defence, including the great Franco Baresi, to waltz through and score COMPLETELY unchallanged to secure a 1-1 draw. I've never seen anything like it before or since.
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Old 28-05-07, 04:21 PM   #10
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Italians are so bent they couldn't lie straight in bed.

FACT! (cheers Kaip)
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Old 28-05-07, 06:09 PM   #11
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they rigged our final too.
Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this....
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Old 28-05-07, 06:50 PM   #12
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Glad I'm not the only one that thinks this....
explain what you mean, do you think the ref was bent or something?
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Old 28-05-07, 08:48 PM   #13
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explain what you mean, do you think the ref was bent or something?
I absolutely 100% totally think that the ref was either paid, or instructed by Platini that it was to go Milan's way. Period.

I know we had our chances, and believe me I don't want to hear how we should have converted them because I know we should have, but 27 fouls to 15, at least half of those fouls were fucking crap, a MINIMUM 3 minutes of extra time that turned into less than 2 and a half with at least 30 seconds wasted from the crawl off substitution that also wasn't added on as well. Maybe he was too busy looking at the nice Rolex he was given before the match to worry about actual timekeeping, I'm not sure. I was seriously floored within the first 10 minutes of the match with the calls that were being made, and knew we were done right there.

Also, 6 games he's reffed LFC, we've now lost all of them. Reffed 7 games for Milan, and they've magically won all of those. This German bitch was hand picked for this match from the head of UEFA. No questions in my mind. It reminded me of the Pele movie Victory it was so poor.


But that's just my opinion. WTF do I know, I'm Canadian.
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Old 28-05-07, 09:09 PM   #14
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I absolutely 100% totally think that the ref was either paid, or instructed by Platini that it was to go Milan's way. Period.

I know we had our chances, and believe me I don't want to hear how we should have converted them because I know we should have, but 27 fouls to 15, at least half of those fouls were fucking crap, a MINIMUM 3 minutes of extra time that turned into less than 2 and a half with at least 30 seconds wasted from the crawl off substitution that also wasn't added on as well. Maybe he was too busy looking at the nice Rolex he was given before the match to worry about actual timekeeping, I'm not sure. I was seriously floored within the first 10 minutes of the match with the calls that were being made, and knew we were done right there.

Also, 6 games he's reffed LFC, we've now lost all of them. Reffed 7 games for Milan, and they've magically won all of those. This German bitch was hand picked for this match from the head of UEFA. No questions in my mind. It reminded me of the Pele movie Victory it was so poor.


But that's just my opinion. WTF do I know, I'm Canadian.
I agree the ref on Wed was an absolute disgrace.

Not only did he give them everything and us nothing, the injury time thing was absolutely pathetic. When he indicated 3 mins injury time, there had already been 5 substitutions (which at 30 seconds per sub which is what the ref must add) makes 2 and a half minutes alone, not to mention the idiot that run on to the pitch at the start of the second half and the Milan player (Inzaghi?) who fouled Kewell and yet he was the one rolling on the floor like he was shot and was attended to by the physio. Then there was the Milan sub during injury time and not to mention everything else that happened in the 2nd half that the ref should have added time on for but I cant think of. The wanker of a ref should have given at least 5 mins of injury time, never mind 3 mins and blow after 2 and a half (isnt it supposed to be a minimum of 3 mins?

He made some very poor decisions throughout the match, which favoured Milan, and it is hard to think that wasnt intentional, if only on a subconscious level if nothing else.

As for Inzaghi's first goal, did it not come off his arm? Probably it was unintentional, but IMO if a player touches the ball with his arm and gets an unfair advantage, that should be a foul. I dont know if that is the rule, but it should be.
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Old 28-05-07, 09:12 PM   #15
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Just before the trophy was presented, Berlusconi and Platini was shaking hands behind it....oh the irony....oh the symbolism...oh, what utter twats...
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Old 28-05-07, 09:40 PM   #16
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I absolutely 100% totally think that the ref was either paid, or instructed by Platini that it was to go Milan's way. Period.

I know we had our chances, and believe me I don't want to hear how we should have converted them because I know we should have, but 27 fouls to 15, at least half of those fouls were fucking crap, a MINIMUM 3 minutes of extra time that turned into less than 2 and a half with at least 30 seconds wasted from the crawl off substitution that also wasn't added on as well. Maybe he was too busy looking at the nice Rolex he was given before the match to worry about actual timekeeping, I'm not sure. I was seriously floored within the first 10 minutes of the match with the calls that were being made, and knew we were done right there.

Also, 6 games he's reffed LFC, we've now lost all of them. Reffed 7 games for Milan, and they've magically won all of those. This German bitch was hand picked for this match from the head of UEFA. No questions in my mind. It reminded me of the Pele movie Victory it was so poor.


But that's just my opinion. WTF do I know, I'm Canadian.
i was interested to hear what you had to say on the matter since you were there.

the ref was a disgrace, there's no doubt that Italian football is bent, milan shouldn't even have been in the competition. uefa let them back in and then apparently helped them win it.

there is at least strong evidence to back up what you're saying. i've never seen a ref end a game before the designated time, unless one team is getting stomped. but to call it 30 seconds early while we're attacking....it goes along with how he approached the rest of the match. he let them waste so much time and then didn't give any of it back to us. neutrals have told me they thought he was against liverpool, didn't want us to gain any advantage. and thats from 3 different people i talked to who have no interest in the outcome

the first goal was a handball of course, and he called everything in their favour while kuyt was getting murdered up front. he's a shit ref and should never have gotten a final, but why did he?
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Old 28-05-07, 10:27 PM   #17
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We lost. The first goal wasn't handball. The rule is about intention, not gaining an unfair advantage.

The ref made some poor decisions and the timekeeping thing was very poor. To imply however that was why we lost is clutching at straws to say the least.

I notice you don't mention the linesman who flagged for offside even though Kaka' was onside and through on Reina with our defence caught hopelessly upfield.

It's disappointing but I really suggest you get over it.
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Old 28-05-07, 10:53 PM   #18
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Juve let me down in a few accas in the late part of the season. Drawing at home to teams i've never heard of!! Pathetic stuff! I soon stopped betting on them. Can't trust that league.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:08 PM   #19
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We lost. The first goal wasn't handball. The rule is about intention, not gaining an unfair advantage.

The ref made some poor decisions and the timekeeping thing was very poor. To imply however that was why we lost is clutching at straws to say the least.

I notice you don't mention the linesman who flagged for offside even though Kaka' was onside and through on Reina with our defence caught hopelessly upfield.

It's disappointing but I really suggest you get over it.
Stop the press!!
Neil Young in defending corruption shocker!


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Old 28-05-07, 11:11 PM   #20
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Stop the press!!
Neil Young in defending corruption shocker!




I do think there is a strong whiff of dodgy dealings about Italian football (on top of what's been found) and certainly there is a long history of corruption throughout Italian public life (partly a consequence of the Christian Democrat hegemony from WW2 although the roots go back far further than that).

However, how many first team players did Alex Ferguson play against West Ham? Was that corruption too?
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Old 28-05-07, 11:17 PM   #21
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I do think there is a strong whiff of dodgy dealings about Italian football (on top of what's been found) and certainly there is a long history of corruption throughout Italian public life (partly a consequence of the Christian Democrat hegemony from WW2 although the roots go back far further than that).

However, how many first team players did Alex Ferguson play against West Ham? Was that corruption too?
Not in my book, as Slur can pick the team he wants.
A ref however has to be clean - he is the judge out here on the pitch.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:20 PM   #22
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Not in my book, as Slur can pick the team he wants.
A ref however has to be clean - he is the judge out here on the pitch.
Of course but you're not going along with the notion that the German ref for the Champions' League final was corrupt, are you?
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Old 28-05-07, 11:21 PM   #23
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We lost. The first goal wasn't handball. The rule is about intention, not gaining an unfair advantage.

The ref made some poor decisions and the timekeeping thing was very poor. To imply however that was why we lost is clutching at straws to say the least.

I notice you don't mention the linesman who flagged for offside even though Kaka' was onside and through on Reina with our defence caught hopelessly upfield.

It's disappointing but I really suggest you get over it.
You make some fair points.

I wasnt blaming the ref for not disallowing the first goal because I dont know the law and so cant judge whether the ref applied it correctly. Just suggesting that the law is an ass if it is solely about intention - how can it be fair if you handball it and because of the handball you get a goal?

The ref was poor, but I didnt mean to suggest that it was the sole reason we lost. However, it certainly did not help us, and it worked strongly in Milan's favour.

All things being equal, you dont know for sure that the poor refereeing didnt make the difference between winning and losing.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:22 PM   #24
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Platini played in our CL final against Juventus at Heysel.

What do you think his opinion of Liverpool FC as a club has been after that game?

My guess is that he hate us very much. I don't expect us to get treated in a fair way as long as Platini is the President of UEFA.

He picked the ref so Milan would win the game.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:26 PM   #25
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Of course but you're not going along with the notion that the German ref for the Champions' League final was corrupt, are you?
No, I don't really think so.
Biased, yes, paid up, no.
I am sure Platini wanted Milan to win though...the ****.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:29 PM   #26
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You guys with your conspiracy theories.



You could be right but I suppose there's no way at the moment of knowing whether it's true or not.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:32 PM   #27
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Look at the refs we had against Barca, Chelsea and Milan.

All of them didn't give us anything. It wasn't just the final.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:43 PM   #28
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Look at the refs we had against Barca, Chelsea and Milan.

All of them didn't give us anything. It wasn't just the final.
That's just opinion.

Also, it's wrong. As I said, what about the offside we got in the final? Or the foul by Kuyt in the build-up to Agger's goal in the semi-final?

I'm not saying the refs were perfect - the one in the final certainly wasn't - but we have to recognise that maybe we're not the best judges of referees at least when Liverpool are playing.
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Old 28-05-07, 11:46 PM   #29
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You make some fair points.

I wasnt blaming the ref for not disallowing the first goal because I dont know the law and so cant judge whether the ref applied it correctly. Just suggesting that the law is an ass if it is solely about intention - how can it be fair if you handball it and because of the handball you get a goal?

The ref was poor, but I didnt mean to suggest that it was the sole reason we lost. However, it certainly did not help us, and it worked strongly in Milan's favour.

All things being equal, you dont know for sure that the poor refereeing didnt make the difference between winning and losing.
From the BBC. (I quickly checked and the 2005 and current rules seem identical on the point of what defines handball - how referees have been told to "interpret" them may have altered):

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

David Elleray consults his assistant during a club "Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."
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Old 28-05-07, 11:50 PM   #30
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Really really disgusts me. So many of the matches today were fixed. I had heard various reports about some of the matches to be held today, sure enough all came out as expected. The bookies knew in advance what to expect hence the ridiculous odds given for the top teams.

Sure enough- Milan, Lazio and Empoli all threw their games today.

Italian football will never change. Pathetic
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Old 28-05-07, 11:52 PM   #31
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His arm was down by his side.

If it had hit a Liverpool player and the ref had awarded a penalty I reckon we'd be pretty upset about it.
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Old 29-05-07, 12:00 AM   #32
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That's just opinion.

Also, it's wrong. As I said, what about the offside we got in the final? Or the foul by Kuyt in the build-up to Agger's goal in the semi-final?

I'm not saying the refs were perfect - the one in the final certainly wasn't - but we have to recognise that maybe we're not the best judges of referees at least when Liverpool are playing.


However the ref we had for the final has had complaints from Man United and Middlesborough before and I think he is a very continental style referee. I'm not sure if you should have any ability to influence the choice of referee for a game but I find it a less than wise decision to choose a referee whose style has been complained about consistantly by teams from the same country as one of the teams in the final.

I don't think that it was a conspiracy or anything but I did feel the reputation of English teams went before us on the night and that a few deciisions seemed premptive.

It was a perfectly fair goal though - much as it galls me to say it.
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Old 29-05-07, 12:26 AM   #33
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I didn't bring the goal up in my rant because it could well have been called either way in my book. Not enough to bitch about, just a bummer.

I have since watched the match again, and purposely watching it as a neutral. He was biased, and not only did he make poor calls against us, but on a number of occassions made calls against us that were blatent Milan fouls!!! Even if you just take 5 of those, that is in essence a 10 foul turn around and could easily swing any game.

Neil, as for it "just being opinion", that's what this whole website is. Opinions.


Mine just happen to be right.
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Old 29-05-07, 12:41 AM   #34
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From the BBC. (I quickly checked and the 2005 and current rules seem identical on the point of what defines handball - how referees have been told to "interpret" them may have altered):

In Fifa's Laws of the Game 2005, Law 12 says a free-kick or penalty will be awarded if a player "handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)".

Page 67 of the document gives "additional information for referees, assistant referees and fourth officials".

It adds: "Referees are reminded that deliberately handling the ball is normally punished only by a direct free-kick or penalty kick if the offence occurred inside the penalty area.

"A caution or dismissal is not normally required."

However, the document fails to describe what constitutes deliberate handball, which places the responsibility firmly on the referee and referees' assistants.

Former Premier League referee David Elleray said the referee's interpretation depends on whether the hand or arm is in an "unnatural" position at the point of contact.

David Elleray consults his assistant during a club "Referees look at two specifics - did the hand or arm go towards the ball or in a manner which would block the ball, or is the hand in a position where it would not normally be?" Elleray told BBC Sport.

"The challenging decisions are if the defending player spreads their arms to make themselves bigger.

"If the ball hits the arm then the referee must decide whether this action was to deliberately block the ball or whether the player has raised their arms to protect themselves - especially if the ball is hit at speed."
Interesting stuff mate - seems too much is left at the discretion of refs, which explains the inconsistency in decisions from some refs compared to others

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His arm was down by his side.

If it had hit a Liverpool player and the ref had awarded a penalty I reckon we'd be pretty upset about it.

Unless of course our player is on the goal line and blocks a goal bound shot unintentionally with his hand in which case I'd consider it fair enough.
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Old 29-05-07, 03:09 AM   #35
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TOLD YOU GUYS-

Chievo Verona winger Franco Semioli is furious his team are going down after yesterday's 2-0 defeat by Catania.

The Flying Donkeys would have stayed up had Reggina, Siena and Parma not beaten Milan, Lazio and Empoli respectively.

"These results were already written. We already knew how it was going to go in the other stadiums," accused Semioli after the final whistle.

"Safety was only really in the balance here, at the Dall'Ara. I repeat, we already knew the other results. It was between Catania and us. You could have bet your life on it."
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Old 29-05-07, 03:23 AM   #36
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We lost. The first goal wasn't handball. The rule is about intention, not gaining an unfair advantage.

The ref made some poor decisions and the timekeeping thing was very poor. To imply however that was why we lost is clutching at straws to say the least.

I notice you don't mention the linesman who flagged for offside even though Kaka' was onside and through on Reina with our defence caught hopelessly upfield.

It's disappointing but I really suggest you get over it.
I'm not sure if that was aimed at me.

I never said we lost because of the ref, I was pointing out a number of issues I had with his approach and questioned the legitimacy of his appointment.

Good on the linesman for flagging, well done. But the issue is the referee not the linesman

Thanks for the suggestion of getting over it, I'll give that a try

But I will freely discuss the shiteness of the ref if thats ok with you Neil, this being a football forum and all
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Old 29-05-07, 10:28 AM   #37
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Well, this might be the rule, but what about a hand infringing on play, in as hindering or making a goal, no matter the intention or position of the arm?

Refs usually blow for free kicks, penos and dish out cards if a defenders arm infringes on a play that would have become a goal for instance.

Pippos arm was close to his body when the ball hit him, so I have no massive problems with that decision. A goalbound shot hitting a defender standing on the goal line in the same manner, resulting in no goal - would that be interpreted differently? I suspect it would on quite a few occasions lead to a peno.
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Old 29-05-07, 11:00 AM   #38
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I'm not sure if that was aimed at me.

I never said we lost because of the ref, I was pointing out a number of issues I had with his approach and questioned the legitimacy of his appointment.

Good on the linesman for flagging, well done. But the issue is the referee not the linesman

Thanks for the suggestion of getting over it, I'll give that a try

But I will freely discuss the shiteness of the ref if thats ok with you Neil, this being a football forum and all
All right, mate, it wasn't really "aimed at" anyone but sorry if that's how it came across.

I haven't seen any evidence of collusion beyond various people's disagreeing with some of the decisions he made during the match and that's circumstantial at best.
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Old 29-05-07, 11:05 AM   #39
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Well, this might be the rule, but what about a hand infringing on play, in as hindering or making a goal, no matter the intention or position of the arm?

Refs usually blow for free kicks, penos and dish out cards if a defenders arm infringes on a play that would have become a goal for instance.

Pippos arm was close to his body when the ball hit him, so I have no massive problems with that decision. A goalbound shot hitting a defender standing on the goal line in the same manner, resulting in no goal - would that be interpreted differently? I suspect it would on quite a few occasions lead to a peno.
Well, it's just supposition, isn't it?

I'd suggest that refs sometimes give penalties for the "offence" you mention and sometimes they don't. I have no idea which happens more often.

I agree about the vagaries of the handball law - it's partly because it leaves it up to the referee to determine what was in the player's mind (i.e. did he intend to handball or not). I personally don't think it making it an offence to gain an advantage whether or not the handball is intentional is necessarily the right way to go since there would be a greater incentive than there is now to aim the ball at the defender's arm/hand, especially in the penalty area.
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Suppose you have a physicist and a sociologist standing at the side of a field, observing a set of events unfolding on the field. The physicist does [describes] it using the terminology of mass and velocity and frequency of radiation and the rest. And the sociologist does it by describing it as a rugby match.



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Old 29-05-07, 06:40 PM   #40
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All right, mate, it wasn't really "aimed at" anyone but sorry if that's how it came across.

I haven't seen any evidence of collusion beyond various people's disagreeing with some of the decisions he made during the match and that's circumstantial at best.


Alright Neil

I don't think there would be any evidence of collusion unless someone in UEFA let something slip. And that isn't likely to happen with the new regime just taking power, everyone will want to stay on the Little Corporal's good side.

I'm not one for conspiracy theories though and I believe the ref had a bad game. But it does seem odd that such a low profile ref was chosen for the final....
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