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Old 23-10-07, 04:16 AM   #1
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Martin Jol (again)

Spurs concede another 3 goals! This time to pishy Newcastle

Thats just shameful.

Everytime Jol is discussed we always seem to see an endless line of people saying how good a manager he is and how he has been doing a good job?

Seriously? His defence is a total disgrace. The whole missing Ledley King argument just doesnt stand up for me. Every team misses key players from time to time but are still able to form some sort of defensive sytem.

Tottenham, however have consistantly over the past few years (under Jol) conceded 2/3 goals per match. Its appaling that a manager at such a high profile club cannot sort out a defence.

Martin Jol= Kevin Keegan.
The similarities are so obvious.

Im sure he's a lovely guy but its glaringly obvious he isnt capable. A top class manager has the tactical knowledge and intelligence to put together a solid defensive system first and foremost.........

He's half way out the door. And he only has himself to blame
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Old 23-10-07, 08:09 AM   #2
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He took a club who are notoriously unstable to 5th in the league twice, while playing attractive football. He is a very good coach with obvious flaws who has had to deal with not being bought the players he wants. He has also had to deal with being blatantly undermined by his board throughout this season.

To be honest the board should have sacked him already having made him a dead man walking. The current situation is helping no one, even if it saves them paying severance pay.
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Old 23-10-07, 09:32 AM   #3
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He took a club who are notoriously unstable to 5th in the league twice, while playing attractive football. He is a very good coach with obvious flaws who has had to deal with not being bought the players he wants. He has also had to deal with being blatantly undermined by his board throughout this season.

To be honest the board should have sacked him already having made him a dead man walking. The current situation is helping no one, even if it saves them paying severance pay.
Completely agree.
His position is untenable so just get shot of the guy. But...Ill bet thats it for your 5th place finishes you fuckers...Jol has done a very good job for you.
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Old 23-10-07, 09:37 AM   #4
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It's looking pretty serious of ole Jol-ly boy.

He's spent big and has a laughing stock of a defence - where he's spent a lot of money on too (Bale, Kaboul, Chimbonda to name 3!)

His time is up, and it's just a question of when, in my opinion.

I can actually see them trying and maybe landing Carlo Ancelotti, with Mourinho the new manager at AC Milan...
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Old 23-10-07, 09:40 AM   #5
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He's spent big and has a laughing stock of a defence - where he's spent a lot of money on too (Bale, Kaboul, Chimbonda to name 3!)
The thing is he gets a lot of stick for this but he doesn't buy the players and two of those are obviously attacking rather than defensive fullbacks and he has been refused a holding midfield player.

Obviously he is not a great defensive coach but he shouldn't take all the blame when someone else is buying the players.
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Old 23-10-07, 09:41 AM   #6
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if it makes spurs sell a few id want Rafa to be in for Bale (left back nailed down for 10 years), Lennon (gone off the boil but potentially very exciting) and why not Berbatov? (like someone else said exchange numerous squad players & cash for him, pennant, crouch, kewell, riise....theres loads).
You never know..........
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Old 23-10-07, 09:49 AM   #7
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if it makes spurs sell a few id want Rafa to be in for Bale (left back nailed down for 10 years), Lennon (gone off the boil but potentially very exciting) and why not Berbatov? (like someone else said exchange numerous squad players & cash for him, pennant, crouch, kewell, riise....theres loads).
You never know..........
I can't see it doing so . Surely to a degree thats the point of having a director of football/coach system - that the change would involve minimal disruption at player level?
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Old 23-10-07, 09:53 AM   #8
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Agreed, however a new manager/coach will always bring his approach, ideas and will have a ready made opinion on players. New coach = players for sale 100% of the time. Just hope its players we could use.
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Old 23-10-07, 09:59 AM   #9
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Surely Jol has some input into the decision making process?

Why would he or anybody put themselves into a position where they are made to look stupid because people "behind the scenes" are making decisions that for people looking into the club, rest on the head coach's shoulders!
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Old 23-10-07, 10:07 AM   #10
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Surely Jol has some input into the decision making process?

Why would he or anybody put themselves into a position where they are made to look stupid because people "behind the scenes" are making decisions that for people looking into the club, rest on the head coach's shoulders!
Thats the way it works in many continental setups. He apparently goes to a panel including the director of football and says what he wants. Apparently he asked for a holding player and got Zakora - which is patently not what he needed.
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Old 23-10-07, 12:38 PM   #11
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I have to say, the more I see Dawson, the more I realise what a BAD BAD player he is. Chimbonda is also a terrible defender. How they miss King. Lee and Kaboul are hardly the best defensively either. Then he has no top quality central defensive midfielder. Zokora is average.

He needs to buy big time. The problem lies in his players but he should realise this.

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Old 23-10-07, 01:08 PM   #12
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End of the day he has capable players in his squad. Very athletic and physically strong players. Those are Premiership standard. A capable manager would be able to build a half decent defence. Whether or not the signings were his choice or not is irrelevant
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Old 23-10-07, 02:10 PM   #13
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I've always thought Jol could turn Spurs around but at this stage I think it may be beyond him.

As others have already said their squad is too big: high on quantity low on quality. They have a good set of strikers but the rest of their team is nothing to get excited about.
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Old 23-10-07, 02:38 PM   #14
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He took a club who are notoriously unstable to 5th in the league twice, while playing attractive football. He is a very good coach with obvious flaws who has had to deal with not being bought the players he wants. He has also had to deal with being blatantly undermined by his board throughout this season.

To be honest the board should have sacked him already having made him a dead man walking. The current situation is helping no one, even if it saves them paying severance pay.
I agree with the last part of your post, but I do think Jol messed up himself by not buying defensive reinforcements. Instead of buying Bent, who wasnt needed, he knew King was injury prone and should have bought in someone else apart from Kabol, who is average at best.
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Old 23-10-07, 02:58 PM   #15
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I agree with the last part of your post, but I do think Jol messed up himself by not buying defensive reinforcements. Instead of buying Bent, who wasnt needed, he knew King was injury prone and should have bought in someone else apart from Kabol, who is average at best.
Sack Jol.

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Old 23-10-07, 03:39 PM   #16
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I agree with the last part of your post, but I do think Jol messed up himself by not buying defensive reinforcements. Instead of buying Bent, who wasnt needed, he knew King was injury prone and should have bought in someone else apart from Kabol, who is average at best.
Like I said he isn't in charge of purchases so I find it hard to blame him. I'm sure he has some input but my guess would be he would have had a different distribution of money on the purchases (and would have bought a holding midfielder and a left winger with the money).
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Old 23-10-07, 04:18 PM   #17
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Like I said he isn't in charge of purchases so I find it hard to blame him. I'm sure he has some input but my guess would be he would have had a different distribution of money on the purchases (and would have bought a holding midfielder and a left winger with the money).
Maybe he isn't good enough to take care of the business even if he got the chance. He said that Agger would fail big time in the PL because he is a left back and not a central defender.
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Old 23-10-07, 04:24 PM   #18
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not that i give a shit about jol or spurs but they have been pretty unlucky with their fixture list so far this season.

kind of like us last season theyve faced a lot of top teams early on and all away from home too.

their still shit though and id love to see them go down,just to piss my my mate off.
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Old 23-10-07, 04:28 PM   #19
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This is an interesting article about howSpurs are run and what Jol is up against:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_...156440,00.html

Jol bruised by boardroom blunders


Spurs' botched handling of the Michael Carrick sale typifies the turmoil at White Hart Lane, reports Kevin Mitchell

Sunday August 26, 2007
The Observer


When Martin Jol looks out on the Old Trafford pitch this afternoon, his gaze might linger on one opposition player in particular. If Jol had not been forced, against his better judgment, to sell Michael Carrick to Manchester United last year, Tottenham would in all likelihood not be in such turmoil and the manager's authority would be intact instead of in tatters.
The Carrick saga, more than any of the many others that have blighted Jol's time at Spurs, defines what is wrong with the club. Lining up for Tottenham in his place will probably be Didier Zokora, a player Jol had forced on him and who has hardly been an unqualified success at White Hart Lane. This is not the team the Dutchman could and should have had at his disposal.


It is now emerging that there have been several other transfer blunders. But it is not just past follies that haunt Jol and Tottenham. As well as speculation about the manager's future there are rumours - denied, of course - that star striker Dimitar Berbatov is still being courted by United. Clandestine meetings with likely candidates for Jol's job have also lent an air of intrigue to the sorry affair.
So Tottenham go into today's match burdened by much more than the prospect of trying to beat a Manchester United team yet to be roused to full pitch. The players and Jol have to put behind them one of the worst weeks in the long and sometimes glorious history of the club, a week in which the unpalatable truth of in-fighting from board level to the pitch has finally been exposed, a farce that has undermined the manager, unsettled the players and angered the supporters.

Insiders have told The Observer that the root cause of the chaos at White Hart Lane is meddling in selection and the buying and selling of players by the chairman Daniel Levy and his influential sidekick Paul Kemsley, who does not rate Jol. They have as allies Damien Commoli, the sporting director, and, curiously, Donna Cullen, the communications director. Plenty of directors, not much direction.

Harried by this powerful quartet, and obviously concerned about leaked stories of either Fabio Capello or Juande Ramos replacing him, Jol has remained dignified and diplomatic. 'We've never seen a week like it,' a club source said. 'But he's bearing up amazingly well.'

Jol and his captain, Robbie Keane, had to brave a blizzard of awkward questions during the scheduled media day at the club's training ground in Chigwell on Friday, and Cullen will be trawling the interpretation of their quotes with a critical eye this morning.

Cullen has her supporters at board level but I was told, 'She overlooks every word written or said about Spurs. She oversees the manager's programme notes and puts her red pen through much of what he says. When it comes to football and publicity, she just doesn't get it.'

There will not be much cause for angst in Keane's utterances. He squirmed nervously as he batted back repeated inquiries about dressing-room morale with standard cliches. The sanguine Jol looked and sounded like a man on borrowed time.

Joe Lewis, the sixteenth richest man in Britain according to the lists, oversees his investment in Tottenham from the comfort of his mansion in Lyford Cay in the Bahamas, and he will have been disturbed that the simmering tension at Spurs has been handled so ham-fistedly. It is understood that Lewis and Levy (who is effectively auditioning for a bigger role in Lewis's Enic empire while he is in charge of Tottenham) want to sell the club. To attract the top price they need a bigger stadium, with at least a 50,000 capacity, and Champions League football.

'Their aim is simple,' another White Hart Lane source said. 'It's to raise the club's value in order to make a massive killing by selling the club. They think they can put at least another £50million on Spurs' value before selling. Jol doesn't know who to trust, so he doesn't trust any of them.'

Kemsley, the vice-chairman, has been tasked with acquiring a state-of-the-art training complex, but a refurbished ground - and, probably, a new manager - is the more immediate project.

On the face of it, the future should be bright. There is a waiting list of 10,000 for season tickets and a local fan-base of at least 100,000, so the potential is significant. But space is tight at White Hart Lane and Tottenham would have to buy up property around the ground and turn the pitch 90 degrees. They expect to make an announcement before December.

Kemsley is an interesting character. He is a self-made property millionaire, a genuine Spurs fan and close friend of Harry Redknapp, with whom he once owned a racehorse. It is believed that moves to replace Jol were inspired by Kemsley, who has made his misgivings about the manager known to Levy many times. The two of them can make board decisions for the football club, independently of the plc, from which Kemsley resigned last year to give him a free rein on the football side.

Underpinning their football decisions is Commoli. He was a scout for Arsenal in France, but not as influential in uncovering players for Arsenal as Spurs made out when he joined. He was briefly director of football at St Etienne before joining Spurs when Frank Arnesen left for Chelsea, but he never had the authority or knowledge of the Dane. Jol does not rate Commoli or his signings - among them Benoit Assou-Ekotto, Ricardo Rocha and, most controversially, Zokora.

It was Commoli who told Levy that the club could dispense with Carrick because he believed Zokora was a better player. Carrick was happy at Spurs in April 2006, when he went to talk to Levy about a new contract, with two years left on his existing one and his World Cup inclusion imminent. He had been Tottenham's best player and was central to Jol's plans.

How negotiations unfolded, then collapsed, provides a fascinating insight into the running of the club. Carrick was on £25,000 a week and started talks by asking for £40,000, expecting to negotiate. He was laughed out of the room and told to re-sign on Spurs' terms, or be sold.

Carrick, who wanted to stay, felt unwanted. He then discovered Sir Alex Ferguson was interested in him. At that season's Premier League annual meeting, David Gill of Manchester United put in a £10million bid and Levy dismissed it. The club denied at the time there had been an approach and have always insisted that Carrick was sold because he wanted to leave. He did, in the end - but only because he was so disenchanted at the way he had been treated. Before he went, Levy made a lame and late increased offer of £50,000 a week. It was a prize piece of botched dealing.

Meanwhile, Levy had negotiated a new contract with Jol, who was unaware of the Carrick situation. The manager was livid when he found out he had committed himself to the club and simultaneously lost his main midfielder to such a formidable rival. When he was lumbered with Commoli's choice of replacement, Zokora, he was even less impressed.

Aggravation worsened as the season progressed. Kemsley was not happy with Jol's tactics; Jol was growing weary of the interference. There was great discomfort at board level when Chelsea won at White Hart Lane in an FA Cup quarter-final replay. Only a second successive fifth place in the league temporarily soothed Jol's detractors.

But it all bubbled up in the summer, when Jol and Levy had a major row over signings. Jol, who has been desperate for a left-winger for two years, had earlier been thwarted when Levy intervened in the almost-completed purchase of Stewart Downing, and insisted Spurs pay in instalments. The deal fell through. Jol was further frustrated when he sought to buy the player he considered an important piece in his jigsaw: Berbatov's compatriot and friend, Martin Petrov, from Atletico Madrid. Levy and Kemsley apparently have a phobia about older players and considered the 28-year-old Petrov past it.

There have been several other points of disagreement between Jol and Levy, who fancies himself as something of a hot-shot at the negotiating table.

Jol wants a left back but has been continually thwarted in his efforts and has often had to play the right-footed Paul Stalteri out of position. There are other gaps he is keen to address but has not been able to. Aaron Lennon, for instance, while dazzling in bursts, does not fit the Jol profile of a hard-working professional; nor does Jermain Defoe, whose scoring record away from home (three last season) is not impressive. As a replacement for Carrick, Tottenham might have signed the Cameroon international Geremi, from Chelsea, but instead he went to Newcastle and is already their captain.

Several agents told The Observer that Levy was difficult to do business with. 'He doesn't really understand the rules of engagement or football itself,' one said. 'He has an over-inflated view of himself as a negotiator because he once sold three players to Portsmouth for £7m and thought he was a genius in the transfer market.'

If there is any doubt that Jol is the innocent party in this ongoing mess it is not shared by influential and respected voices in football - including his rivals Arsene Wenger and Alex Ferguson. Wenger, who has enjoyed virtually unfettered control for more than a decade at Arsenal, accused Tottenham of impatience last week. Ferguson expanded on that theme to The Observer

'The difference between Martin Jol and me is that I've been here 20 years,' he said. 'When I first came to this club I faced all that expectation too, because we hadn't won the league in umpteen years. Martin is new at the club and Spurs haven't won the league for 45 years, so that's quite a lot of expectation, and you are not surprised at the criticism. You are only surprised at the way it all started.

'I was pleased to see Daniel Levy come out in support of him because [Jol] is a decent guy. His work in Holland was outstanding, and he did a good job for Tottenham last year. Knee-jerk reactions don't necessarily come from the board, the press play a part too, but still you wonder where these things start.

'In modern football you get in some of these directors' rooms and boardrooms and you see four or five directors and about 35 hangers-on. And they've all got a voice. That's often where the seed is sown. When I first came to United they had something they called the second board. They used to meet every Monday afternoon in the Grill Room at Old Trafford, assess results, get the axe out for Alex Ferguson, that type of thing. That's the kind of rubbish you had even 20 years ago. I think a lot of clubs have a similar problem - it sort of comes with the corporate hospitality packages nowadays - and perhaps Tottenham suffer from it more than most.'

Jol is the most popular manager at White Hart Lane since Keith Burkenshaw, more popular even than Glenn Hoddle and Osvaldo Ardiles, neither of whom could translate their status as great Spurs players to management. Yet Jol has had to endure an attritional and unsubtle campaign against his authority at the very time when he might be able to make a breakthrough in restoring the fortunes of what was once a great club.

'It's unbelievable that he's under pressure,' said Carrick, a Jol supporter, ahead of today's game. 'Absolutely unbelievable.'
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Old 23-10-07, 04:38 PM   #20
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Maybe he isn't good enough to take care of the business even if he got the chance. He said that Agger would fail big time in the PL because he is a left back and not a central defender.
That might be true but you can't tell because he hasn't had the opportunity. It is fair to say he has failed to create a cohesive defensive unit from a decent set of players but it is unfair to criticise him for buying Bent instead of defenders when he isn't in control of that.
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Old 24-10-07, 01:08 PM   #21
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Like I said he isn't in charge of purchases so I find it hard to blame him. I'm sure he has some input but my guess would be he would have had a different distribution of money on the purchases (and would have bought a holding midfielder and a left winger with the money).
where did you get that from he wasnt in charge of buying players?
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Old 24-10-07, 01:10 PM   #22
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sorry Dave, just read the article posted above.
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Old 24-10-07, 03:07 PM   #23
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Spurs concede another 3 goals! This time to pishy Newcastle

Thats just shameful.

Everytime Jol is discussed we always seem to see an endless line of people saying how good a manager he is and how he has been doing a good job?

Seriously? His defence is a total disgrace. The whole missing Ledley King argument just doesnt stand up for me. Every team misses key players from time to time but are still able to form some sort of defensive sytem.

Tottenham, however have consistantly over the past few years (under Jol) conceded 2/3 goals per match. Its appaling that a manager at such a high profile club cannot sort out a defence.

Martin Jol= Kevin Keegan.
The similarities are so obvious.

Im sure he's a lovely guy but its glaringly obvious he isnt capable. A top class manager has the tactical knowledge and intelligence to put together a solid defensive system first and foremost.........

He's half way out the door. And he only has himself to blame
I think he's a manager who did very well taking them to some stability in terms of establishing themselves as the 5th best side in the country.

However, he strikes me as not being able to cut it when there's pressure and expectation.

That season where they had 4th place until the end of the last game was a good example. When there's isnt much expected, he delivers. But when the spotlight's on them and the pressure's there, they bottle it.

This season has been the same, they've been expected to step it up and they've flopped.

IMO, he's taken them as far as he can and looks to have lost the dressing room.

Dead man walking.
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Old 24-10-07, 03:08 PM   #24
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Apparently he asked for a holding player and got Zakora
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Old 25-10-07, 12:02 PM   #25
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What fucking bugs me about Spurs is that they held us at Anfield. I’m sure we all thought “typical, they’ve turned the corner against us”, but then they go to fucking Newcastle of all places and get tanked.

Just makes us look fucking rubbish…which we are.
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Old 25-10-07, 12:17 PM   #26
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What fucking bugs me about Spurs is that they held us at Anfield. I’m sure we all thought “typical, they’ve turned the corner against us”, but then they go to fucking Newcastle of all places and get tanked.

Just makes us look fucking rubbish…which we are.

we did make 2 fucking huge errors against them. Gave 2 soft goals away, from what I saw, we had all the running and should have been 2/3 goals clear by the time they scored.
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Old 25-10-07, 08:43 PM   #27
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Jol has agreed a severance package with spurs and will walk away after tonights match is over.

Ramos will be next manager.

As reported by Radio 5 who got it from tomorrow Times & other reports.
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Old 25-10-07, 08:57 PM   #28
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Jol has agreed a severance package with spurs and will walk away after tonights match is over.

Ramos will be next manager.

As reported by Radio 5 who got it from tomorrow Times & other reports.


Blimey. Interesting to see how this develops...
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Old 25-10-07, 09:00 PM   #29
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Clive Allen reported to be standing in for the rest of the season.
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Old 25-10-07, 09:05 PM   #30
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Clive Allen!
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Old 25-10-07, 09:06 PM   #31
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ramos the new spuds boss

think he seems dead sound and a good manager

and he,s spanish

eeeenglish not so good no

dont mind the spuds tbf - lets hope they peg back manure for that 4th cl spot this season
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Old 25-10-07, 09:11 PM   #32
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what are you on about?
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Old 25-10-07, 09:12 PM   #33
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All this news is coming out when Jol is sitting on the touchline. Wow Spurs really know how to honor their most successful manager in the last 7-10 years.
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Old 25-10-07, 09:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superdan View Post
what are you on about?
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Old 25-10-07, 09:14 PM   #35
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Is this true?
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Old 25-10-07, 09:15 PM   #36
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Who are the spuds? Spurs?
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Old 25-10-07, 09:15 PM   #37
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Just said on 5 live, Jol to leave tonight
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Old 25-10-07, 09:16 PM   #38
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From the BBC: "NEWS ALERT: There are some sources suggesting that Spurs boss Martin Jol is set to step down after the game against Getafe. "
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Old 25-10-07, 09:23 PM   #39
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imo at the end of the game it would be an idea for all the player to slap jols baldy bonce then have scantily clad birds run round the lane after him

with the obligitory benny hill music

just a nice send off i think
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Old 25-10-07, 09:30 PM   #40
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Its a bit weird and the are now 2:1 down great goal by Getafe
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