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Old 22-01-21, 12:16 PM   #481
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It's the finishing that's killing us, the stats show it. 80+ shots in five games and just one goal. It's the most bizarre thing ever. We had 8 shots against Palace and scored 7.

Even teams down the bottom of the league are scoring every 15-20 shots...

It's such a weird thing. We can't buy a goal.

Having said all that, I can't remember too many of those 80 efforts that as it happened I thought 'oh that's in...' or '...great save, keeper' - the ones that stick in my head are ones that end in Row Z... or even into orbit like Div's first effort last night... or they've been straight at the keeper, get blocked, or trundle towards the keeper.

Normally, we'd have a deflected effort or two creep in... but nothing. Nada. Zero.

Yes, we've had problems with fluency and pace of play, changing positions to suit injuries, etc... but c'mon.... 80+ shots on target... even if we'd scored a handful - an average team's shot:goal conversion rate - we'd be nudging top spot in the league for sure. It's mental.
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Old 22-01-21, 04:25 PM   #482
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You can only play one touch quick passing football if there is movement around you, but as i mentioned above (quoting his highlights video) everyone is too static and seem to have lost their work ethic.
absolutely this. The movement is non existent in the front line these days which is an incredible statement to make considering the 3 players we are talking about. We have got lazy, which also is an incredible statement to make considering we have been the hardest working team in the league for years.

Thiago has been playing too deep to affect the game, having Fab in the midfield doing the dirty work would allow Thiago to drift further forward and inflience the game a bit more, picking those passes and pushing back opposition defences. I really thought last night was a perfect game to have Matip/Philips. I think Klopp made a mistake not taking the chance with that, Burnleys movement is awful and it was mostly high balls would were going to have to deal with. At least we would have got the chance to let Thiago off the leash a bit with Fab mopping up.

Instead we had that midfield of Thiago/Gini/Shaq. Gini is way way off form, Shaq is nowhere near fully fit and Thiago is nowhere near fully fit. He looked knackered and sloppy after 50 or 60 mins.
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Old 22-01-21, 04:27 PM   #483
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It's the finishing that's killing us, the stats show it. 80+ shots in five games and just one goal. It's the most bizarre thing ever. We had 8 shots against Palace and scored 7.

Even teams down the bottom of the league are scoring every 15-20 shots...

It's such a weird thing. We can't buy a goal.

Having said all that, I can't remember too many of those 80 efforts that as it happened I thought 'oh that's in...' or '...great save, keeper' - the ones that stick in my head are ones that end in Row Z... or even into orbit like Div's first effort last night... or they've been straight at the keeper, get blocked, or trundle towards the keeper.

Normally, we'd have a deflected effort or two creep in... but nothing. Nada. Zero.

Yes, we've had problems with fluency and pace of play, changing positions to suit injuries, etc... but c'mon.... 80+ shots on target... even if we'd scored a handful - an average team's shot:goal conversion rate - we'd be nudging top spot in the league for sure. It's mental.
most of the shots on goal are pathetic and easily saved by keepers or completely mishit and into the stands. I can't believe it to be honest, I use Trent as a good example of someone who is considered one of the best strikers of a ball in the game and his crossing is like that of a 12 year old. Bobby looks like a player who has never played as a striker and all composure goes out the window when he gets a shot at goal.
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Old 23-01-21, 04:57 AM   #484
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He's shit, sell.
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Old 24-01-21, 07:56 PM   #485
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He must have the worst win ratio in LFC history
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Old 24-01-21, 07:58 PM   #486
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He looks shit. He isn't obviously. But his world class ability has soon come crashing down to fit in with the rest of the beige. He needs Hendo in there.
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Old 24-01-21, 07:59 PM   #487
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Was blowing out of his hole in second half. Doing all the donkey work and hasn't been able to influence the game at all. He was terrible today. Doesn't help that Gini has been stinking the place out again.
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Old 24-01-21, 08:22 PM   #488
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Was blowing out of his hole in second half. Doing all the donkey work and hasn't been able to influence the game at all. He was terrible today. Doesn't help that Gini has been stinking the place out again.

Itís a different Thiago with Fab and Hendo... we didnít buy him to be either of them. Heís having to be one or the other and itís not his strength. He is a creative playmaker and he isnít being asked to do that role at the moment. Wasted talent.
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Old 24-01-21, 08:25 PM   #489
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Was blowing out of his hole in second half. Doing all the donkey work and hasn't been able to influence the game at all. He was terrible today. Doesn't help that Gini has been stinking the place out again.
What was that head thing he was doing when running back to the box.
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Old 24-01-21, 08:41 PM   #490
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What was that head thing he was doing when running back to the box.
looked like he was going to pass out. Poor chap is fucked
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Old 24-01-21, 08:43 PM   #491
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Itís a different Thiago with Fab and Hendo... we didnít buy him to be either of them. Heís having to be one or the other and itís not his strength. He is a creative playmaker and he isnít being asked to do that role at the moment. Wasted talent.
yup absolutely, he is a casualty of us not investing in the defence. World class talent being used as workhorse. If we want him to get injured, we are certainly going the right way about it.
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Old 24-01-21, 08:45 PM   #492
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n/a

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Old 03-02-21, 11:30 PM   #493
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i was elated when he signed, but due to injuries he has been chucked in & it isn't working; square peg round hole ??

The team seem to be playing for him rather than him playing for the team.

Would seriously leave him out against low block sides( fodder like the last three home games) & let him learn how the prem work.
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Old 03-02-21, 11:31 PM   #494
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We can't judge him until specific players come back in but yeah he has been disappointing and is slowing us down in possession. Against teams that sit so deep he hasn't done us any favours.
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Old 03-02-21, 11:34 PM   #495
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Equally he must be thinking.

‘What the fuck...’

This will be the first season in his career he hasn’t won the League
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Old 03-02-21, 11:34 PM   #496
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Ffs lads - he is one of the best midfielders in the world. He was nearly crippled just after he caught Covid and has played 4 games in 10 days with no break and utter garbage ahead of him. He is not the problem - remember the games vs Ev and Chelsea to think of what be brings
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Old 03-02-21, 11:35 PM   #497
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Equally he must be thinking.

ĎWhat the fuck...í

This will be the first season in his career he hasnít won the League
He won 10 from 11
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Old 03-02-21, 11:38 PM   #498
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Equally he must be thinking.

ĎWhat the fuck...í

This will be the first season in his career he hasnít won the League


To be fair to him too the movement up top is a disgrace.
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Old 03-02-21, 11:47 PM   #499
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Ffs lads - he is one of the best midfielders in the world. He was nearly crippled just after he caught Covid and has played 4 games in 10 days with no break and utter garbage ahead of him. He is not the problem - remember the games vs Ev and Chelsea to think of what be brings


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Old 03-02-21, 11:57 PM   #500
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Problem for me with the midfield is it's missing Henderson, put him back in midfield and he will sort Thiago out get him playing at the right tempo.
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Old 04-02-21, 12:01 AM   #501
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Problem for me with the midfield is it's missing Henderson, put him back in midfield and he will sort Thiago out get him playing at the right tempo.
yup as I said can't judge him yet as the setup isn't there but I would be lying if I said I haven't been slightly disappointed with his performances.
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Old 04-02-21, 01:53 AM   #502
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Problem for me with the midfield is it's missing Henderson, put him back in midfield and he will sort Thiago out get him playing at the right tempo.
And tonight wijnaldum was so static i though we'd put another statue up.
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Old 04-02-21, 09:39 AM   #503
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I am also disappointed in Thiago. I really was expecting more in terms of clever passes to unlock tight defenses. Or quick turns and dribbles to break solid lines. I am hoping he will get up to speed because at the moment you have to say the evidence is beginning to mount that he is one of the reasons why we are suddenly struggling. I do agree that Henderson back in the middle will help him. Also the illness and longish time out with injury and being thrown in at a time when the whole team is struggling for form has been a big ask. I think patience will be required from us all.

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Old 04-02-21, 09:43 AM   #504
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Played some nice balls last night only for the move to breakdown with poor touch/ control from a forward. The lack of quality was systemic last night.
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Old 04-02-21, 09:47 AM   #505
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Yeah, not sure he's the problem. He's come in to the side while it's stuttering. You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter.
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Old 04-02-21, 10:14 AM   #506
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Yeah, not sure he's the problem. He's come in to the side while it's stuttering. You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter.
Yep. There's a big difference in terms of the side he came into. Last season, with all players fit, we still struggled to break teams down. We controlled the game, compressed the defence and midfield, and we often lacked someone to ping passes to unlock defences. This year, without the solid defence and compressed space and control, it doesn't give us that edge. Right now he's a very good midfielder filling in and until we get fab and hendo next to him, we won't see the best of him.

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Old 04-02-21, 10:25 AM   #507
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Yep. There's a big difference in terms of the side he came into. Last season, with all players fit, we still struggled to break teams down. We controlled the game, compressed the defence and midfield, and we often lacked someone to ping passes to unlock defences. This year, without the solid defence and compressed space and control, it doesn't give us that edge. Right now he's a very good midfielder filling in and until we get fab and hendo next to him, we won't see the best of him.

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Old 04-02-21, 12:32 PM   #508
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The problem for Thiago is he is having to come into a disjointed midfield and having to take on roles that, whilst he can do them, are not what we bought them for.

Since he joined he is doing a lot of the dirty work and his stats back that up. He is a player that will find other players if they are making runs and if there is good movement around him. Problem we have right now is that Thiago is having to take on a lot of what Fabinho and also Henderson would so in the middle, plus the movement up front ahead of him has been middling at best since he came back, and the movement around him in the middle is not great either in terms of players making runs from deep for him to feed the ball to.

He is one of the best in the word in his role, but even the best cannot make incisive play making passes when there is nobody ahead of them making runs for the ball.

And what I did notice a lot last night was that when he did make passes to players ahead of him, the receiving players either miscontrolled the ball or just hung onto it for too long after getting it.


He is doing well so far in what he is doing and his underlying stats back up what the eye can see as well.


Put Fabinho behind him in the Kimmich role and have Henderson providing box to box alongside Thiago and sudenly you get to see Thiago showing why he is one of the best, if not the best in the world, in that pivot role
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Old 04-02-21, 01:20 PM   #509
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The one hope that I am clinging to is that we get at least one of Henderson or Fabinho back into midfield and things improve significantly. For me Henderson is the key, maybe Fabinho is the better DM but Henderson is capable and willing to do the dirty work in the middle to allow Thiago and the more skillful players influence the game.

Obviously that require one or more of the new CBs to settle in and Fab get back to fitness.
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Old 04-02-21, 01:31 PM   #510
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The movement up top has been dire all season. Vs Spurs Bobby's movement was fantastic showing for the ball in deep and wide positions and his first touch was fantastic. That's pretty much the only game I can think of that he had a stand out game in 2020. The quality of his movement and touch has gone off a cliff, Salah is often tightly marked but even his movement has been poor but imo when Mane's movement is static then you know something is wrong. That's pretty much the way it has been most of the season and why Jota was such a breath of fresh air. I completely get that when Thiago gets the ball there is not much to play to & it doesn't help playing with Milner who could hardly move & Gini apart from the recent games in London is playing at about 50%.

In saying all that, Thiago has been a bit slow on the ball and vs "low block" sides he needs to be quicker in moving it, he's just hanging on it for a second longer than he needs to. He's a worldie and no doubts we will see the best of him if we ever get our midfield back but he has struggled a bit. We need to get Hendo back into the midfield asap, he's the key alright.
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Old 04-02-21, 01:52 PM   #511
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The movement up top has been dire all season. Vs Spurs Bobby's movement was fantastic showing for the ball in deep and wide positions and his first touch was fantastic. That's pretty much the only game I can think of that he had a stand out game in 2020. His quality movement and touch has gone off a cliff, Salah is often tightly marked but even his movement has been poor but imo when Mane's movement is static then you know something is wrong. That's pretty much the way it has been most of the season and I completely get that when Thiago gets the ball there is nothing to play to. It doesn't help playing with Milner who could hardly move & Gini is apart from the recent games in London is playing at about 50%.

In saying all that, Thiago is very slow on the ball and vs "low block" sides he needs to be quicker in moving it, he's just hanging on it for a second longer than he needs to. He's a worldie and no doubts we will see the best of him if we ever get our midfield back but he has struggled a bit. We need to get Hendo back into the midfield asap, he's the key.

And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.
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Old 04-02-21, 01:58 PM   #512
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And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.
Good analysis. Some people will defend our old guard no matter what, even if it means shooting the new guy. You didn't need stats, just your eyes, to see that Gini, Milner and even Firmino are not our future. They are our (very successful) past. But past nevertheless. Teams have evaluated their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly now.
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Old 04-02-21, 02:02 PM   #513
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Good analysis. Some people will defend our old guard no matter what, even if it means shooting the new guy. You didn't need stats, just your eyes, to see that Gini, Milner and even Firmino are not our future. They are our (very successful) past. But past nevertheless. Teams have evaluated their strengths and weaknesses and play accordingly now.


Oh for me Thiago was the only midfielder passing the eye test last night, but I decided I would dig into the figures for what I thought he did well last night, and then I just carried on and looked at Milner and Wijnaldum.

The figures pretty matched to what the eyes saw.
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Old 04-02-21, 02:19 PM   #514
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I thought Gini looked disinterested, those stats seem to confirm he wasn't involved enough
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Old 04-02-21, 02:30 PM   #515
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I thought Gini looked disinterested, those stats seem to confirm he wasn't involved enough
In Wijnaldums defense, he did not play a full game but if you scale his stats up to match 90 minutes at the same level of output and he still comes in as having the worst numbers of the three that started.
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Old 04-02-21, 02:41 PM   #516
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i think with Thiago everybody is looking to pass to him, there have been loads of situations when somebody has been on the ball and taken the pass to Thiago rather than a better option. Trent does it all the time
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Old 04-02-21, 02:53 PM   #517
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i think with Thiago everybody is looking to pass to him, there have been loads of situations when somebody has been on the ball and taken the pass to Thiago rather than a better option. Trent does it all the time

Noticed a bit of that as well and wondered if it was a sign of some players not being as confident as they used to be. Looked at times that the passing player just looked to sent it at Thiago regardless and that sometimes a player that looked to be in a good position to receive the ball in a more advanced position did not really show for the ball or move quickly to make a bit of space to receive the ball and the passer just sent it at Thiago instead.


Now that works fine when we have a few better players in the team or when the team we are playing against comes at us more as then Thiago will see the gaps behind that team and get the ball to one of our players as there would be more natural space to counter the receiving player miscontrolling a bit.

But against the low block and sitting deep teams the receiving players really need to be doing their bit to make a run or a turn to make a half yard of space in case they do not control the ball as it comes to them. Thiago is still finding players with the ball against the low block teams but all he has to aim out are our forward players standing right beside a defender so he does his bit and finds the player but the ball is then somewhere it can be defended. When that happens we then seem to default into trying to shuttle the ball wide (and slowing the pace greatly as we do so) and crossing it in high against tall backlines that are sitting deep.
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Old 04-02-21, 03:03 PM   #518
greenturnip
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When everyone is fit (assuming that ever happens) I would like too see Fab as our holding midfielder. The question then is how/can Hendo and Thiago will work together. They're a bit one-paced and similar for me...I think we miss Naby breaking the lines and causing chaos. When there is no movement up front or too many poor touches, the Hendo/Thiago through-ball style is less effective.
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Old 04-02-21, 03:06 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
Noticed a bit of that as well and wondered if it was a sign of some players not being as confident as they used to be. Looked at times that the passing player just looked to sent it at Thiago regardless and that sometimes a player that looked to be in a good position to receive the ball in a more advanced position did not really show for the ball or move quickly to make a bit of space to receive the ball and the passer just sent it at Thiago instead.


Now that works fine when we have a few better players in the team or when the team we are playing against comes at us more as then Thiago will see the gaps behind that team and get the ball to one of our players as there would be more natural space to counter the receiving player miscontrolling a bit.

But against the low block and sitting deep teams the receiving players really need to be doing their bit to make a run or a turn to make a half yard of space in case they do not control the ball as it comes to them. Thiago is still finding players with the ball against the low block teams but all he has to aim out are our forward players standing right beside a defender so he does his bit and finds the player but the ball is then somewhere it can be defended. When that happens we then seem to default into trying to shuttle the ball wide (and slowing the pace greatly as we do so) and crossing it in high against tall backlines that are sitting deep.


And all those aimless crosses fron Trent were infuriating again. He must have been looking for that man mountain Shaq at the back post
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Old 04-02-21, 03:10 PM   #520
Jaco_Pastorious
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Originally Posted by greenturnip View Post
When everyone is fit (assuming that ever happens) I would like too see Fab as our holding midfielder. The question then is how/can Hendo and Thiago will work together. They're a bit one-paced and similar for me...I think we miss Naby breaking the lines and causing chaos. When there is no movement up front or too many poor touches, the Hendo/Thiago through-ball style is less effective.

I think Henderson would be the somewhat more advanced of the two in that situation and be playing in sort of a similar role to what Goretzka did at Bayern when he was in the centre with Thiago with Kimmich as the CDM.

When Fabinho is in the centre for us, Henderson does tend to be more of a box to box player and Thiago excels as in the pivot between a CDM and a box to box midfielder.

Would not be much of a stretch to see Henderson do that as it is not that different to what he was doing a lot of the time in the middle last season. With Thiago sitting in the pivot slot it would actually free up Henderson a lot more when we had the ball and allow him to advance a lot more. Thiago would still carry the ball himself into advanced positions, like he did at Bayern for years, but Henderson could well start become a more regular getter of goals and/or assists in that set up.

Was actually thinking a few weeks ago who would I love to see replace Henderson if for some reason we had to get a player to play instead of him and the two names I kept going back to were Goretzka and Valverde. Reason I went to those two names (and not saying they would be players that their clubs would just sell to us) was I wanted a player that could bring a very high level of all round play and that can play in a manner that meshes with how we play when we are at our best. Think it says a lot for how much Henderson has come on in the past number of years that those are the sort of players I think would be needed if we were to replace him with a "ready made" player. Go back maybe six or seven years ago and I never saw Henderson being the sort of player that you would need to be looking at top level players in order to replace him.
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