Thiago Alcantara

[BigChief]

Originally Posted by super_xabi

And all those aimless crosses fron Trent were infuriating again. He must have been looking for that man mountain Shaq at the back post

It's frustrating to watch but got to have some sympathy for him. Whenever we have the ball in the middle it's a case of "look wide, usually for TAA. Then stop moving". Even when he's with Salah there, Mo doesn't make a single run to the line with his right foot. Cuts in to his left, is immediately read and so has to pass to TAA.

TAA tries to bring Milner and Gini to do some magic as the opposition WANT the ball at those two's feet all the time. Guess what happens next? A couple of crab passes, goes back to Nat, and then "look for TAA, stop moving". To break this cycle of shit TAA has to cross it because there's three men on him if he tries to run to the line himself.

Klopp must see this against shit teams? Please Jurgen. See this. Please.

[danperkins]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

And if there is no movement around him and nobody showing for the ball, how does he move it quickly amd more importantly effectively? Every time last night he released it quickly to the feet of one of our guys, then they went and miscontrolled it or lost it almost straight away.

Thiago for most of his career has been a midfielder who style of play made him almost press proof. We seem to have found a way to turn that player into being a workhorse.

Just to look at Thiago a little by the numbers from last night.

He had

102 touches of the ball
90 passes - 81 successful passes - 90% PS
75% accuracy with long balls.
7 tackles attempted - Six successful tackles
7 duels won (50/50s)
9 recoveries of the ball
I interception
Dispossessed 0 times


Milner

92 touches of the ball
79 passes - 69 successful passes - 87% PS
0% accuracy with long balls (3 attempted)
1 successful tackle in 90 minutes
5 duels won
7 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 1 time


Wijnaldum

36 touches of the ball
28 passes - 25 successful passes - 89% PS
0% accuracy with long balls
0 successful tackles
2 duels won (8 lost)
3 recoveries of the ball
0 interceptions
Dispossessed 3 times



So our skillful midfielder is the one putting in the workhorse shift and was being pretty damn good at being our defensive mainstay on the night, and our two midfielders that we expect the higher workrate and better defensive work from lack far behind him.

We did have players slowing the midfield down badly last night and not doing much going back or forward, butThiago was not one of them.

I've pretty much said exactly what you're saying across various threads and I agree the movement is poor and certain players i.e Bobby have looked a bit like Bambi when trying to control a football. Also that we didn't buy him to be running around like a greyhound but unfortunately that's the situation we are in.

He has done ok, why am I bit disappointed in him so far? Because he is world class and I want to see more of him dictating play. I thought he would drive us forward in the absence of Hendo in that midfield. I am not worried about him and its pretty obvious he is not being used in a role that's suits his skill set but even his sideways balls are that second too slow imo.

Hendo back in midfield and Jota as a runner and suddenly things could look a lot different and makes us far less predictable than we are now. When will we see that? Fuck knows anymore but one things for sure this inane, repetitive shite we keep playing has to stop.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by danperkins

I've pretty much said exactly what you're saying across various threads and I agree the movement is poor and certain players i.e Bobby have looked a bit like Bambi when trying to control a football. Also that we didn't buy him to be running around like a greyhound but unfortunately that's the situation we are in.

He has done ok, why am I bit disappointed in him so far? Because he is world class and I want to see more of him dictating play. I thought he would drive us forward in the absence of Hendo in that midfield. I am not worried about him and its pretty obvious he is not being used in a role that's suits his skill set but even his sideways balls are that second too slow imo.

Hendo back in midfield and Jota as a runner and suddenly things could look a lot different and makes us far less predictable than we are now. When will we see that? Fuck knows anymore but one things for sure this inane, repetitive shite we keep playing has to stop.

But with very poor movement around him, with other players taking the safety first option a lot and with the front three either not showing for balls or miscontrolling the passes that do find him, and with Thiago more or less having to do the workhorse and DM roles, how is he meant to be doing what you hoped he would be doing?

He is out working the guys we expect to be the hard workers in the middle and doing more of the heavy lifting than them. He is doing what Henderson would do or what Fabinho would be doing in that Thiago is now the one having to cover for others and he is the one that is trying to drop deep to anticipate the other team attacking and Thiago is also the one that is moving left and right to give a full back some cover and also to give the full backs a passing option.

The only way Thiago can do what you and all the rest of us want to see him do on a regular basis is when we get guys back int the midfield that will do what Thiago is currently having to do and to the same level or higher at doing that stuff to what Thiago is currently doing.

In short we need Henderson and Fabinho level players back in the middle doing their respective roles so that Thiago can go and be Thiago in the middle for us.

[danperkins]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

But with very poor movement around him, with other players taking the safety first option a lot and with the front three either not showing for balls or miscontrolling the passes that do find him, and with Thiago more or less having to do the workhorse and DM roles, how is he meant to be doing what you hoped he would be doing?

He is out working the guys we expect to be the hard workers in the middle and doing more of the heavy lifting than them. He is doing what Henderson would do or what Fabinho would be doing in that Thiago is now the one having to cover for others and he is the one that is trying to drop deep to anticipate the other team attacking and Thiago is also the one that is moving left and right to give a full back some cover and also to give the full backs a passing option.

The only way Thiago can do what you and all the rest of us want to see him do on a regular basis is when we get guys back int the midfield that will do what Thiago is currently having to do and to the same level or higher at doing that stuff to what Thiago is currently doing.

In short we need Henderson and Fabinho level players back in the middle doing their respective roles so that Thiago can go and be Thiago in the middle for us.

I get what you're saying but he still has Gini and Milly beside him who are work horses, he is there to provide the class and guile. Obviously the midfield situation is not ideal but that's where we are and players need to step up.

What can he do differently? Move the ball quicker maybe, it's been mentioned few times now. If there's a lack of movement maybe he needs to drive forward more, we've seen glimpses of him skipping past players with ease. Taking on players is something that seems to have our entire squad petrified to do, instead we just pass it out to Robbo or Trent who cross it into packed boxes and it gets cleared and then we do it again, and again and again. It's not just Thiago that needs to drive forward, its a problem in our squad, one of which people thought Ox could solve but he clearly isn't the answer.

Aimless slow passing is risk free football, we bought Thiago because he has that x factor and even though the movement around him has deteriorated he isn't playing with shit players, we just need to try different approaches. Somebody has to take these games by the scruff of the neck and take responsibility. Thiago is arguably the most gifted footballer in that squad and frankly one of the most gifted in world football I refuse to believe he can only excel with a specific midfield of Hendo and Fab, he's too good to be pigeon holed like that.

Yes the movement hasn't been great and yes Hendo and Fab would free him up more but even under the current circumstances he is more than capable of doing better and will imo. We just need to mix it up more and work on playing through the middle of the pitch aswell as working in the wide areas, we did it so well vs a deep sitting Spurs, so there is no reason why we can't do vs other sides.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by danperkins

I get what you're saying but he still has Gini and Milly beside him who are work horses, he is there to provide the class and guile. Obviously the midfield situation is not ideal but that's where we are and players need to step up.

What can he do differently? Move the ball quicker maybe, it's been mentioned few times now. If there's a lack of movement maybe he needs to drive forward more, we've seen glimpses of him skipping past players with ease. Taking on players is something that seems to have our entire squad petrified to do, instead we just pass it out to Robbo or Trent who cross it into packed boxes and it gets cleared and then we do it again, and again and again. It's not just Thiago that needs to drive forward, its a problem in our squad, one of which people thought Ox could solve but he clearly isn't the answer.

Aimless slow passing is risk free football, we bought Thiago because he has that x factor and even though the movement around him has deteriorated he isn't playing with shit players, we just need to try different approaches. Somebody has to take these games by the scruff of the neck and take responsibility. Thiago is arguably the most gifted footballer in that squad and frankly one of the most gifted in world football I refuse to believe he can only excel with a specific midfield of Hendo and Fab, he's too good to be pigeon holed like that.

Yes the movement hasn't been great and yes Hendo and Fab would free him up more but even under the current circumstances he is more than capable of doing better and will imo. We just need to mix it up more and work on playing through the middle of the pitch aswell as working in the wide areas, we did it so well vs a deep sitting Spurs, so there is no reason why we can't do vs other sides.

In theory yes, but as we saw against Brighton those two simply did not bring the workrate or any effectiveness in terms of doing the bread and butter stuff so Thiago then had to go and do that.

So we had a situation where the workhorses did not effectively do what they were to do, and the finesse player ended up doing the job of the workhorses and as such having to be the only effectove workhorse on the night.

What we needed when Thiago was having to do the DM role was for Wijnaldum to start doing the role he does for the Dutch national team and making the sort of forward runs he does for the Oranje.


So we can say that Thiago needs to be providing the creative spark all we like, but if the more defensive midfielders around him are not performing their role as well as they have in the past forcing Thiago to do that role, and the forwards are being quite static and we have little by way of runners from deep, I really do not see how Thiago should provide a creative spark.


What I see in Thiago is an experienced pro who is sacrificing his natural game to try and help plug holes that are being left in front of the CBs and in front of the fullbacks. He is very much not the issue in games like the one against Brighton, but rather that issue lies at the feet of the two other men in the middle.

At times we are playing like three separate units as we have very little cohesion being provided by our midfield as it sits between our attacking unit and our defensive unit and is like a buffer at times for any transitions.


A fully fit Henderson in there instead of say Milner would make a big difference as suddenly Thiago has someone else in midfield that will share some of the donkey work when we need to grind out play or are on the back foot. Now drop Fabinho in there as well and you get a situation where both Thiago and Henderson have world class cover sitting behind them that allows both to go and play their own game and both will come back and cover when we are pressed.

It is why I said in a few other threads that I would be gambling on putting the new CBs in as a pairing as soon as we can once we have both Fab and Henderson available and fit. That way Henderson and Fab go back to the middle with Thiago, we get two CBs behind them that are settling but that are natiral CBs. And in every position we have players in their natural slots rather than trying to fit world class midfielders into CB slots and trying to put back up midfielders into where the world class midfielders had been, and all these changes happening at the same time.

Put the two new CBs into the CB slots and we then end up with 9 players used to our set up and all in their best positions and we get two CBs still settling but who are a natural Right and left sided CB sitting in the CB roles.

For my money that would help bring some confidence back into the team. Players would go back to having the regular level of quality in front of them or beside them. Familar runs and patterns would be taking place, and there would be less drops offs in quality all over the pitch because we have more first team level guys in their proper positions.

[danperkins]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

In theory yes, but as we saw against Brighton those two simply did not bring the workrate or any effectiveness in terms of doing the bread and butter stuff so Thiago then had to go and do that.

So we had a situation where the workhorses did not effectively do what they were to do, and the finesse player ended up doing the job of the workhorses and as such having to be the only effectove workhorse on the night.

What we needed when Thiago was having to do the DM role was for Wijnaldum to start doing the role he does for the Dutch national team and making the sort of forward runs he does for the Oranje.


So we can say that Thiago needs to be providing the creative spark all we like, but if the more defensive midfielders around him are not performing their role as well as they have in the past forcing Thiago to do that role, and the forwards are being quite static and we have little by way of runners from deep, I really do not see how Thiago should provide a creative spark.


What I see in Thiago is an experienced pro who is sacrificing his natural game to try and help plug holes that are being left in front of the CBs and in front of the fullbacks. He is very much not the issue in games like the one against Brighton, but rather that issue lies at the feet of the two other men in the middle.

At times we are playing like three separate units as we have very little cohesion being provided by our midfield as it sits between our attacking unit and our defensive unit and is like a buffer at times for any transitions.


A fully fit Henderson in there instead of say Milner would make a big difference as suddenly Thiago has someone else in midfield that will share some of the donkey work when we need to grind out play or are on the back foot. Now drop Fabinho in there as well and you get a situation where both Thiago and Henderson have world class cover sitting behind them that allows both to go and play their own game and both will come back and cover when we are pressed.

It is why I said in a few other threads that I would be gambling on putting the new CBs in as a pairing as soon as we can once we have both Fab and Henderson available and fit. That way Henderson and Fab go back to the middle with Thiago, we get two CBs behind them that are settling but that are natiral CBs. And in every position we have players in their natural slots rather than trying to fit world class midfielders into CB slots and trying to put back up midfielders into where the world class midfielders had been, and all these changes happening at the same time.

Put the two new CBs into the CB slots and we then end up with 9 players used to our set up and all in their best positions and we get two CBs still settling but who are a natural Right and left sided CB sitting in the CB roles.

For my money that would help bring some confidence back into the team. Players would go back to having the regular level of quality in front of them or beside them. Familar runs and patterns would be taking place, and there would be less drops offs in quality all over the pitch because we have more first team level guys in their proper positions.

completely agree about pairing up the CB's, it's something nobody expects and it would mean we'd be whole in the midfield & might kick the forward line into gear.

Thing is we pretty much have to beat City so it should be very interesting to see what Klopp does or who we actually have available.

[S-RED]

i think if we have a negative result Sunday, you will see a switch from Hendo/Fab being the CB's to CM's

[Big-Red-Ed]

Definitely it will have to be a 3 of Henderson Fabinho and Thiago to see the best of him. Unfortunately with the Cb injuries I just can't see both Fabinho and Henderson back in midfield. Klopp won't risk 2 new ones. But even with just Jordan back in Thiago will improve.

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[Assassin]

Another muppet. Goes out of way to get booked as early as possible in games. Totally inaffective for the rest of the game

[~LFCHistory~]

Let's see how he does alongside some real CB's and with Jota back before writing Thiago off.

[labourRed]

I've no issues with Thiago. We're lucky to have him. Just came into a horribly disjointed team.

[Rich]

I worry that physically he won’t make it with us. He’s slow and prone to lunging in. Even if we had our full strength team to pick from I’m not convinced he’s gonna work in the PL.

[labourRed]

Nah. He's doing work that isn't normally his forte and it shows. He'd be a different player with Hendo and Fabinho doing the heavy lifting beside him.

[Buzzo]

He does keep the ball well. We definitely got worse after he and Curtis went off. Felt like we’d just clawed our way back into it and then you bring on Milner and Shaq...

[labourRed]

Yeah that was a bizarre sub. We'd have probably lost anyway though.

[fabinho]

Square peg, round hole. Fantastic player, but not for us. He'll be gone within two years I think, failing to reach the levels we expected.

[dizzycat]

Originally Posted by Rich

I worry that physically he won’t make it with us. He’s slow and prone to lunging in. Even if we had our full strength team to pick from I’m not convinced he’s gonna work in the PL.

He should put a few pounds on, then he could be the new Jan Molby.

[McDermotX]

Loves a sideways pass, Gini loves a backward pass......who wouldn't though ? ...... with that static final third and only your fullbacks showing as available. Sometimes anyway.

[danperkins]

It's the most static I have seen our midfield in years. Yes we know he's a world class baller, yes he will probably function a hell of alot better with Fab and Hendo in there but also yes he has been pretty shit so far.

[Tribute]

Have a look at his numbers again today, I bet he’s done far more than both Gini and Curtis put together.. he’s being thrown into Hendo/Fab’s role and again, being played out of position like the makeshift CBs.

I get all this is due to the sheer amount of injuries but Klopp doesn’t help himself with his stubborn selections and choice of substitutions...

[labourRed]

Originally Posted by Tribute

Have a look at his numbers again today, I bet he’s done far more than both Gini and Curtis put together.. he’s being thrown into Hendo/Fab’s role and again, being played out of position like the makeshift CBs

I haven't looked at the stats but the eye says the same.

People were crying out for Keita as well. Thaigo would double Keita's number in every single game.

[Tribute]

Originally Posted by labourRed

I haven't looked at the stats but the eye says the same.

People were crying out for Keita as well. Thaigo would double Keita's number in every single game.

He’s getting a rough ride by some but I actually think he’s done pretty well considering the team has completely gone to shit. He’s put a shift in and yes, he does like a lunge and that’s not great - but he reads the game better than most and picks out a pass, sometimes forward heaven forbid... and that’s more than others with their 360 degree turns every single time they touch the ball... midfield is only fucked because defence is fucked. Front three are happily misfiring of their own volition sadly...

[Kenneth]

That is clearly all true, but sometimes players come in and make a struggling team better. Bruno Fernandes for example. Would have been ace for Thiago to have a similar impact, but not reasonable to expect it.

[Tribute]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

That is clearly all true, but sometimes players come in and make a struggling team better. Bruno Fernandes for example. Would have been ace for Thiago to have a similar impact, but not reasonable to expect it.

He has Fred and McTominay doing most of the graft for him... but he’s still got impressive stats for pressing and tackling back... same as Thiago. He just scores all their penalties and free kicks...

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by labourRed

Nah. He's doing work that isn't normally his forte and it shows. He'd be a different player with Hendo and Fabinho doing the heavy lifting beside him.

Nail on the head. We have one of the best playmakers in the game and he is pretty much trying to play the role of a CDM at present.

We also happen to have one of the best CDMs in the game but we have him at CB.

Then we have Henderson who has grown to be a very underrated but high quality CM who can do the box to box role to a high level and we also have him playing at CB.

And people wonder why we look sluggish slow and disjointed in the centre.

Who I would be asking more questions about at present than Thiago is Milner and Wijnaldum. Both are well versed in our set up, both know how we like to play in the centre, but both seem to be playing like they are the new players in the team and not the experienced Liverpool players both are.

[Tribute]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

Nail on the head. We have one of the best playmakers in the game and he is pretty much trying to play the role of a CDM at present.

We also happen to have one of the best CDMs in the game but we have him at CB.

Then we have Henderson who has grown to be a very underrated but high quality CM who can do the box to box role to a high level and we also have him playing at CB.

And people wonder why we look sluggish slow and disjointed in the centre.

Who I would be asking more questions about at present than Thiago is Milner and Wijnaldum. Both are well versed in our set up, both know how we like to play in the centre, but both seem to be playing like they are the new players in the team and not the experienced Liverpool players both are.

it's as if playing players out of position is going to work out just fine every game...

[Irishnev]

https://twitter.com/hemmenkees/status/1359351078408568833

Thiago is not the problem - I can’t wait for him to play in the proper midfield and defence behind him with hopefully a front 3 in form

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by Irishnev

https://twitter.com/hemmenkees/statu...51078408568833

Thiago is not the problem - I can’t wait for him to play in the proper midfield and defence behind him with hopefully a front 3 in form

And look where Wijnaldum is on it. Quite telling that given our current disjointed play in the middle.


Thiago is miles ahead of everyone, but Henderson scores quite well on there too

[Irishnev]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

And look where Wijnaldum is on it. Quite telling that given our current disjointed play in the middle.


Thiago is miles ahead of everyone, but Henderson scores quite well on there too

Gini is the facilitator in our midfield - keep the ball and give to others. Good to see Jones figuring high there also.

I think we will tear it up next season - VVD back, new partner in situ, Thiago acclimatised, Fab, Hendo and fit Naby in midfield, Jones a year older, Jota and a new forward - squad with a point to prove


And



Maybe no Champions League

[Buzzo]

Originally Posted by Irishnev

Gini is the facilitator in our midfield - keep the ball and give to others. Good to see Jones figuring high there also.

I think we will tear it up next season - VVD back, new partner in situ, Thiago acclimatised, Fab, Hendo and fit Naby in midfield, Jones a year older, Jota and a new forward - squad with a point to prove


And



Maybe no Champions League

Nah, you automatically get CL as the holders of the trophy

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by Irishnev

Gini is the facilitator in our midfield - keep the ball and give to others. Good to see Jones figuring high there also.

I think we will tear it up next season - VVD back, new partner in situ, Thiago acclimatised, Fab, Hendo and fit Naby in midfield, Jones a year older, Jota and a new forward - squad with a point to prove


And



Maybe no Champions League

Except he is not doing that very well as the second half of that pivot role is to be able to distribute the ball well after holding onto it. Gini over the past few games is not really doing any part of that role well. He is not winning balls, he is not keeping the ball as well as we know he can, and he certainly is not finding other players with positive passes either too often. The eye test as well as stats back that up.

Whereas Thiago is going the other way and the eye tests plus stats are backing up that he is being quite effective in the DM role and also being more proactive in terms of finding his teammates ahead of him.


Wish I had your confidence about a fit Naby for any season tbh. I rate him so highly as a player but for whatever reason he and a number of others just cannot replicate for us their fitness/availability levels at prior clubs.


If we had our current squad with every single senior player fully fit going into the pre season this coming summer, I would have no confidence of them all being fit come the first league game in August.

[Irishnev]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

Except he is not doing that very well as the second half of that pivot role is to be able to distribute the ball well after holding onto it. Gini over the past few games is not really doing any part of that role well. He is not winning balls, he is not keeping the ball as well as we know he can, and he certainly is not finding other players with positive passes either too often. The eye test as well as stats back that up.

Whereas Thiago is going the other way and the eye tests plus stats are backing up that he is being quite effective in the DM role and also being more proactive in terms of finding his teammates ahead of him.


Wish I had your confidence about a fit Naby for any season tbh. I rate him so highly as a player but for whatever reason he and a number of others just cannot replicate for us their fitness/availability levels at prior clubs.


If we had our current squad with every single senior player fully fit going into the pre season this coming summer, I would have no confidence of them all being fit come the first league game in August.

I still think he will be the proverbial “like a new signing” next season - if he stays fit after his rehabilitation then he will add a lot to our midfield

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by Irishnev

I still think he will be the proverbial “like a new signing” next season - if he stays fit after his rehabilitation then he will add a lot to our midfield

I am the last two seasons saying he is about to have a massive season. Think I am at the point that I will just see him as one of a growing list of players that we see little off over the course of a season, and hopefully I get a pleasant surprise by being proven wrong.

[Kenneth]

More of a liability with his rashness than a benefit so far.

[danperkins]

Have to say I'm pretty shocked at how bad he's been. I thought Barnes dived by Thiago always seems to leave a foot in. Painfully slow in possession and doing fuck all with it. Gobsmacked at how poor he has been to be honest.

[Fredo]

Originally Posted by danperkins

Have to say I'm pretty shocked at how bad he's been. I thought Barnes dived by Thiago always seems to leave a foot in. Painfully slow in possession and doing fuck all with it. Gobsmacked at how poor he has been to be honest.

What did you expect? Have we turned him to shit?

He's playing in a team struggling for results; the criticism is unfair.

[Kenneth]

Maybe to improve it? To be able to tackle to as a minimum.

[danperkins]

Proven class player, been pretty shit. Fair to say?

[Fredo]

But you wanted a centre back and Klopp brought you two. So take it.

[Liverpool]

Was his tackling this bad at Bayern. Loads of youtube comps on him winning the ball back with excellent timing and sniffing out the danger. He's more Sunday league hungover vibes for us.