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Old 12-12-21, 08:54 PM   #2241
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I don't watch or at all care about F1 but this looks like a load of crap the sort of bullshit even FIFA wouldn't pull. Total joke of a sport
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Old 12-12-21, 08:55 PM   #2242
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I think the sport needs Mercedes to take them to CAS for the long term good. A forensic view of how the FIA is run and how decisions are made, and the changes that would inevitably be forced on them, would help produce a better and more consistent arbiter.
None of the commentary team knew the actual rules and the decisions were a surprise. Really daft sport
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Old 13-12-21, 07:52 AM   #2243
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Get a load of the Lewis fanboys's in here

What are you all whinging about? He had every decision go his way last week with Vertsppen having to give back his place twice and again this week with his cutting of the corner and being let go on any punishment (and has done most the season TBH, he's gotten away with a lot because of both him and Toto bitching non stop) and then the one thing that goes against him and everyones up in arms . There was a crash, the safety car comes out, they let the lapped cars go and Verstappen gains his 2nd spot back and because he took the risk of pitting to get new tires and because of the safety car bunching the cars back up he had his chance to overtake. Don't see how anyone can have an issue with it. Lewis has benefitted from the exact same thing this season im pretty sure. When he came from nowhere and won because of a bunch of similar incidents that let him work his way through the field when he shouldn't have stood a chance. Let's not forget he also crashed into Verstappen and sent him out of the British GP and ended up winning that race which was the start of him coming back into contention. He should have had his arse hauled over the coals for that crash, but it got swept away because its Lewis and he'll bitch and moan for weeks about it.
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Old 13-12-21, 07:55 AM   #2244
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None of the commentary team knew the actual rules and the decisions were a surprise. Really daft sport
Because there isn't really a rule. They were only surprised that the stewards changed their mind. But I think they did that when they realised clearing the back markers out of the way wasn't going to cause the race to end behind the safety car and they could get 1 lap in so they let them through and let the drivers race.
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Old 13-12-21, 08:15 AM   #2245
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Ok, you appear to have missed the point.
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Old 13-12-21, 11:48 AM   #2246
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what point? That none of you understand F1 racing?
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Old 13-12-21, 01:07 PM   #2247
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... Let's not forget he also crashed into Verstappen and sent him out of the British GP and ended up winning that race which was the start of him coming back into contention. He should have had his arse hauled over the coals for that crash, but it got swept away because its Lewis and he'll bitch and moan for weeks about it.
This I do agree with, Lewis should have been at worst DQ'd from that race, at best demoted from race winner, he made a move that endangered his opponent and benefitted with +25 points to the gap. A 10 second penalty was ridiculous given the outcome of the move. If it wasn't at Silverstone, I think he would have been black-flagged.

But I'm glad that he hasn't moved on to 8 titles, it feels wrong that he would surpass Schumacher by benefit of staying at the same dominant team for many years. To really prove himself he should have done a Rossi or a Schumacher, move from the dominant team and turn an also-ran into a contender.

Still, he will probably do it next year, as no doubt Mercedes will have the better car again, they just seem to be ahead of the game when it comes to design and powerplant.
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Old 13-12-21, 02:47 PM   #2248
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This I do agree with, Lewis should have been at worst DQ'd from that race, at best demoted from race winner, he made a move that endangered his opponent and benefitted with +25 points to the gap. A 10 second penalty was ridiculous given the outcome of the move. If it wasn't at Silverstone, I think he would have been black-flagged.

But I'm glad that he hasn't moved on to 8 titles, it feels wrong that he would surpass Schumacher by benefit of staying at the same dominant team for many years. To really prove himself he should have done a Rossi or a Schumacher, move from the dominant team and turn an also-ran into a contender.

Still, he will probably do it next year, as no doubt Mercedes will have the better car again, they just seem to be ahead of the game when it comes to design and powerplant.
You do know he won his first title with Maclaren? He joined Mercs when it wasn't dominant either, it was seen as a big risk to go there.

He's won at least one race every season he's been in F1 which is impressive.

With the mess of a race yesterday you've got to feel a little sorry for both of the drivers; what happened wasn't Red Bull or Verstappen's fault and Hamilton was cruising out front with a 10 second lead.

The race director Michael Massi has had a shocking season tbh the farce of a race that was at Spa and then the last couple of races he's been dreadful; needs replacing for someone actually competent.
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Old 13-12-21, 03:07 PM   #2249
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You do know he won his first title with Maclaren? He joined Mercs when it wasn't dominant either, it was seen as a big risk to go there.

He's won at least one race every season he's been in F1 which is impressive.

With the mess of a race yesterday you've got to feel a little sorry for both of the drivers; what happened wasn't Red Bull or Verstappen's fault and Hamilton was cruising out front with a 10 second lead.

The race director Michael Massi has had a shocking season tbh the farce of a race that was at Spa and then the last couple of races he's been dreadful; needs replacing for someone actually competent.
Doesn't help that he's got people like Toto and Horner in his ear the whole race. They shouldn't be allowed to speak to him.
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Old 13-12-21, 03:13 PM   #2250
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You do know he won his first title with Maclaren? He joined Mercs when it wasn't dominant either, it was seen as a big risk to go there.

He's won at least one race every season he's been in F1 which is impressive.

With the mess of a race yesterday you've got to feel a little sorry for both of the drivers; what happened wasn't Red Bull or Verstappen's fault and Hamilton was cruising out front with a 10 second lead.

The race director Michael Massi has had a shocking season tbh the farce of a race that was at Spa and then the last couple of races he's been dreadful; needs replacing for someone actually competent.
He joined Merc in 2013, and in 2014 the rules changed and Mercedes were the dominant team from the off, never looking back. The only person he's had to beat since then has been his teammate, and he's never been pushed as No 1 driver for the team, he's always had a stooge (apart from one year when it just felt like Mercedes were desperate to have a German driver win the title).

He drove well in 2008 that's true, and had a good battle with the Ferrari's, but Ferrari shot themselves in the foot in that season, with an unreliable car.

Masi has been a farce yes, but I think the stewards have also never covered themselves in glory, so inconsistent from race to race with what is acceptable and what isn't.
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Old 13-12-21, 04:33 PM   #2251
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He joined Merc in 2013, and in 2014 the rules changed and Mercedes were the dominant team from the off, never looking back. The only person he's had to beat since then has been his teammate, and he's never been pushed as No 1 driver for the team, he's always had a stooge (apart from one year when it just felt like Mercedes were desperate to have a German driver win the title).

He drove well in 2008 that's true, and had a good battle with the Ferrari's, but Ferrari shot themselves in the foot in that season, with an unreliable car.

Masi has been a farce yes, but I think the stewards have also never covered themselves in glory, so inconsistent from race to race with what is acceptable and what isn't.
And that's no different to Schumacher, he went to Ferrari and won 5 titles on the trot with them.

Massi has been dreadful but yeah the stewards have also been inconsistent.

Shame the season has ended as it has as both drivers have been very good and it's a bit of shame it's ended up like this.
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Old 13-12-21, 04:34 PM   #2252
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Doesn't help that he's got people like Toto and Horner in his ear the whole race. They shouldn't be allowed to speak to him.
Yeah, to a point I agree but he's been a weak Race Director for me and inconsistent pretty much the entire season.

The absolute farce that was the Belgian GP was horrendous and done to trouser as much cash as possible from the fans.
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Old 13-12-21, 05:22 PM   #2253
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And that's no different to Schumacher, he went to Ferrari and won 5 titles on the trot with them.

Massi has been dreadful but yeah the stewards have also been inconsistent.

Shame the season has ended as it has as both drivers have been very good and it's a bit of shame it's ended up like this.
Regarding Schumacher, he went to Ferrari when they were a struggling also-ran (13 years without a Constructor's and 17 without a Driver's championship and it took 4 years to develop a winning car with them. If he hadn't gone there, Ferrari would not have got back their glory years.

He was also at Mercedes for the 2 years proceeding Hamilton's appointment and tho the results didn't go his way, the knowledge he brought certainly helped the team.

Rossi was similar, leaving the domination of Honda behind to try and drag a struggling former powerhouse back to it's glory days, successfully with Yamaha. I feel both men could have won a lot more titles if they had made other career choices, but each was driven to prove themselves in different ways.

As for the stewards, are they changed each round, or is it the same team at every event? If it's the former, then that's like VAR is now, it just becomes subjective and almost pointless.
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Old 13-12-21, 05:28 PM   #2254
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As for the stewards, are they changed each round, or is it the same team at every event? If it's the former, then that's like VAR is now, it just becomes subjective and almost pointless.
Nah, the race director is permanent. Masi took over from the much more widely respected Charlie Whiting. There's been a lot of drivers coming out today calling yesterday "weird"

They did the same after Brazil when no one really knew what the rules were re overtaking.

I think Masi is pretty much untenable now. Not just because of yesterday but all year he's just been weird in his decision making. This is a sport that is usually by the book but this clown is just making it up as he goes along and is probably a little bit green to be fair to him.
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Old 13-12-21, 05:42 PM   #2255
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I know the Racing Director is a permanent fixture, but the 'driving incidents' get referred to the stewards a lot, and I was wandering if that panel changes from round-to-round, or if it's the same 3(?) each time out?
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Old 13-12-21, 05:54 PM   #2256
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It changes from round to round. Saw somes comments on twitter that suggested they shouldn't to avoid them being corrupted but surely its easier to corrupt someone that can be a tool for 10 rates a season than to nobble someone every round?
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Old 13-12-21, 05:56 PM   #2257
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I know the Racing Director is a permanent fixture, but the 'driving incidents' get referred to the stewards a lot, and I was wandering if that panel changes from round-to-round, or if it's the same 3(?) each time out?
Nah, they change but they don't have the final say... Masi does.
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Old 13-12-21, 05:59 PM   #2258
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Regarding Schumacher, he went to Ferrari when they were a struggling also-ran (13 years without a Constructor's and 17 without a Driver's championship and it took 4 years to develop a winning car with them. If he hadn't gone there, Ferrari would not have got back their glory years.

He was also at Mercedes for the 2 years proceeding Hamilton's appointment and tho the results didn't go his way, the knowledge he brought certainly helped the team.

Rossi was similar, leaving the domination of Honda behind to try and drag a struggling former powerhouse back to it's glory days, successfully with Yamaha. I feel both men could have won a lot more titles if they had made other career choices, but each was driven to prove themselves in different ways.

As for the stewards, are they changed each round, or is it the same team at every event? If it's the former, then that's like VAR is now, it just becomes subjective and almost pointless.
I think we're agree to disagree. Both Schumacher and Hamilton are great drivers.

The stewards change from race to race which is probably the right thing to do.

Massi for me is untenable and you can imagine a few teams will be pushing for him to be removed from the role.
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Old 14-12-21, 06:57 PM   #2259
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That's the first time I've seen a robbery after the car chase!

To be fair RB & MV didn't do anything wrong, neither did Merc & LH.

It seems to me that so desperate was the need for a green flag finish the rules were "re-interpreted" to allow this. A red flag immediately the safety car was deployed plus a standing start would have provided that. It would have provided a more level playing field and not denied Sainz a crack at MV & LH too, it is car racing after all!

I thought LH & Merc played it exactly right and had the positions been reversed RB would have done the same and Merc would have made the same pleadings as CH did.

While I think LH deserved the title I'm not sure taking from MV now is the right thing to do. This is a mess entirely of the authorities making and I can't see a wholly fair way out of it
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Old 14-12-21, 08:01 PM   #2260
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That's the first time I've seen a robbery after the car chase!

To be fair RB & MV didn't do anything wrong, neither did Merc & LH.

It seems to me that so desperate was the need for a green flag finish the rules were "re-interpreted" to allow this. A red flag immediately the safety car was deployed plus a standing start would have provided that. It would have provided a more level playing field and not denied Sainz a crack at MV & LH too, it is car racing after all!

I thought LH & Merc played it exactly right and had the positions been reversed RB would have done the same and Merc would have made the same pleadings as CH did.

While I think LH deserved the title I'm not sure taking from MV now is the right thing to do. This is a mess entirely of the authorities making and I can't see a wholly fair way out of it


They race was contrived at the end but that’s not on RB or MV.
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Old 14-12-21, 09:54 PM   #2261
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Mercedes should have told Bottas to crash as soon as they knew what was going on.
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Old 15-12-21, 06:48 AM   #2262
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That's the first time I've seen a robbery after the car chase!

To be fair RB & MV didn't do anything wrong, neither did Merc & LH.

It seems to me that so desperate was the need for a green flag finish the rules were "re-interpreted" to allow this. A red flag immediately the safety car was deployed plus a standing start would have provided that. It would have provided a more level playing field and not denied Sainz a crack at MV & LH too, it is car racing after all!

I thought LH & Merc played it exactly right and had the positions been reversed RB would have done the same and Merc would have made the same pleadings as CH did.

While I think LH deserved the title I'm not sure taking from MV now is the right thing to do. This is a mess entirely of the authorities making and I can't see a wholly fair way out of it
I don't think he did at all.

He got some very favourable decisions go his way all season. Should've been DQ'd at Silverstone but ended up winning, got very lucky at Baku when Max was cruising to the win and Hamilton out of the points - only to be let down with his tire exploding out of nowhere. Those were two key moments that changed the title. Cant recall Max getting the rub of the green many times, felt like because of his aggressive style and Hamiltons/Toto's tendency to whinge and cry that Max always get his arse hauled over the coals with any incident...whilst Hamilton gets away with it. Case in point the corner cutting on the first lap. Had that been Max, like the week prior, he'd have been made to give that place back.

I also still don't see what peoples problem is with them letting the back markers move out the way. It wasn't robbery FFS. Hamilton still had front position and opportunity to pass once he got overtaken. He was unlucky, finally, when all the luck had been with him the rest of the way.
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Old 15-12-21, 08:19 AM   #2263
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We get it, you despise him.
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Old 15-12-21, 09:26 AM   #2264
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I don't think he did at all.

He got some very favourable decisions go his way all season. Should've been DQ'd at Silverstone but ended up winning, got very lucky at Baku when Max was cruising to the win and Hamilton out of the points - only to be let down with his tire exploding out of nowhere. Those were two key moments that changed the title. Cant recall Max getting the rub of the green many times, felt like because of his aggressive style and Hamiltons/Toto's tendency to whinge and cry that Max always get his arse hauled over the coals with any incident...whilst Hamilton gets away with it. Case in point the corner cutting on the first lap. Had that been Max, like the week prior, he'd have been made to give that place back.

I also still don't see what peoples problem is with them letting the back markers move out the way. It wasn't robbery FFS. Hamilton still had front position and opportunity to pass once he got overtaken. He was unlucky, finally, when all the luck had been with him the rest of the way.
Any comment on the Monza incident or was that just “racing”
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Old 15-12-21, 10:20 AM   #2265
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Or maybe the race Max won in Belgium after only 2 laps behind the safety car? I think you’re seeing a narrative that doesn’t exist personally.

Lewis Hamilton has been a class act this season, look at his response to the clusterfuck on Sunday, it’s in stark contrast to Verstappen the week before being correctly penalised.
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Old 15-12-21, 10:33 AM   #2266
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That's the first time I've seen a robbery after the car chase!

To be fair RB & MV didn't do anything wrong, neither did Merc & LH.

It seems to me that so desperate was the need for a green flag finish the rules were "re-interpreted" to allow this. A red flag immediately the safety car was deployed plus a standing start would have provided that. It would have provided a more level playing field and not denied Sainz a crack at MV & LH too, it is car racing after all!

I thought LH & Merc played it exactly right and had the positions been reversed RB would have done the same and Merc would have made the same pleadings as CH did.

While I think LH deserved the title I'm not sure taking from MV now is the right thing to do. This is a mess entirely of the authorities making and I can't see a wholly fair way out of it
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Old 15-12-21, 10:41 AM   #2267
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The problem is that the rules have been inconsistently applied from one week to the next, the addition of the broadcasting of team principals lobbying the Race Director has been a cluster fuck.it’s always happened… but letting viewers see behind the curtain to create drama, has only damaged the legitimacy of the sport.

The FIA have been trying to engineer a final race showdown from the resumption after the mid season break. The whole mess is on them, not Max or Lewis. We’ve ended up with a ridiculous finish that has ruined Max’s first world title, and disenfranchised one of the greatest drivers of all time. The sport has been turned into sports entertainment over the last few months. Netflix over sporting integrity.

Personally I’ve enjoyed Indycar far more this year… and I can’t remember that ever happening.
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Old 15-12-21, 11:53 AM   #2268
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Or maybe the race Max won in Belgium after only 2 laps behind the safety car? I think you’re seeing a narrative that doesn’t exist personally.

Lewis Hamilton has been a class act this season, look at his response to the clusterfuck on Sunday, it’s in stark contrast to Verstappen the week before being correctly penalised.
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Old 15-12-21, 01:10 PM   #2269
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We get it, you despise him.
I don't like either of them
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Old 15-12-21, 01:14 PM   #2270
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Or maybe the race Max won in Belgium after only 2 laps behind the safety car? I think you’re seeing a narrative that doesn’t exist personally.

Lewis Hamilton has been a class act this season, look at his response to the clusterfuck on Sunday, it’s in stark contrast to Verstappen the week before being correctly penalised.
I thought that was a good solid race. Max led from start to finish and thoroughly deserved the points
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Old 15-12-21, 01:23 PM   #2271
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Any comment on the Monza incident or was that just “racing”
Probably 50/50 really. Max was a bit cheeky but had every right to go for it, Lewis left him no room and actually moved towards him taking more space away. Pretty sure Brundle agreed during comms. The thing with both of them is that they rarely yield.
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Old 15-12-21, 01:29 PM   #2272
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I thought that was a good solid race. Max led from start to finish and thoroughly deserved the points
If Lewis had a better qualifying, it would have been him on pole and taking the half-max points. As it is, Verstappen out-qualified him (which was a common them this season I believe) so got the benefit.

Shame the rain came again, but at that time of the year it's common, maybe it's a race that would benefit from another calendar spot.

Next year will be George's year!
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Old 15-12-21, 02:17 PM   #2273
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Mercedes should have told Bottas to crash as soon as they knew what was going on.
That's a really good point, it would've denied them the constructors championship though and probably a pot of cash
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Old 15-12-21, 02:24 PM   #2274
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And, as we've seen before (was it Schumacher and Hill?) deliberately crashing, albeit not into an opponent this time, can end up with the individuals entire points total being wiped. With all the onboard cameras and whatnot, crashing deliberately would be hard to hide.
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Old 15-12-21, 02:27 PM   #2275
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If the systems showed Max brake checking Hamilton on a straight causing a collision and the punishment was 5 seconds, I doubt they’d do much for running slightly wide and into a wall. Should have the same plausible deniability.
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Old 15-12-21, 02:30 PM   #2276
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Quote:
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If the systems showed Max brake checking Hamilton on a straight causing a collision and the punishment was 5 seconds, I doubt they’d do much for running slightly wide and into a wall.
Normally I’d agree, but almost every punishment in the last 3 months has been with a view to getting to a showdown at the end of the season. I think anyone who caused that to not happen would have the book thrown at them, regardless of inconsistency.

The punishment for the brake check probably should have been retrospective disqualification, or a serious grid place penalty for the next race, but that would have spoiled their main event booking for the PPV ;-)

It’s the same as not having Hamilton give the place back early in the race on Sunday. At that point they thought Max had by far the faster car based on Qualifying, plus the soft tires. So they though not punishing Lewis would give them the competitive finale. The inconsistencies both ways have been wild over the last few months… but narrow minded folks just focus on those that confirm their bias towards one or another.

Last edited by chadrtc; 15-12-21 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 15-12-21, 02:35 PM   #2277
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Maybe so. What a mess.
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Old 15-12-21, 03:07 PM   #2278
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It didn't show a brake-check tho, it showed Max desperate to let Lewis have the place back before the DRS zone and Lewis not having a clue what was going on so rather than passing Max he got too close behind him and they collided as Max desperately slowed down. Lewis had plenty of room to pass if he'd got the message and confusion reigned supreme.
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Old 15-12-21, 03:26 PM   #2279
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It didn't show a brake-check tho, it showed Max desperate to let Lewis have the place back before the DRS zone and Lewis not having a clue what was going on so rather than passing Max he got too close behind him and they collided as Max desperately slowed down. Lewis had plenty of room to pass if he'd got the message and confusion reigned supreme.
Nope, he brake tested. I can't remember the ab

Quote:
According to the stewards, Verstappen “braked suddenly (69 bar) and significantly, resulting in 2.4G deceleration.”
So yes, Hamilton didn't get the message but became aware Verstappen was giving up the position but slowed down as he didn't want to overtake before the DRS line which was approaching or Verstappen would just slingshot back by him... which he 100% would have.
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Old 15-12-21, 03:41 PM   #2280
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Max was told to cede the position at corner 22. He decided to slow and let Lewis pass on corner 27, just before the DRS zone. Lewis didn’t want to go along with such shithouse tactics and slowed, then Max forced the issue and hit the brakes, causing a collision.

I’m not a flag waving Hamilton fan by any means, but I absolutely do not like Verstappen, he’s a genuinely dangerous driver and weak sanctions throughout this career have encouraged his behaviour, when they should be doing the opposite for the safety of all concerned.
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