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Old 22-09-19, 05:11 PM   #241
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Great system.


Love it.
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Old 22-09-19, 06:43 PM   #242
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Not strictly a VAR incident, but with the VAR rules as they are the linesmen have to keep their flags down, the wrong call by the officials like the TAA one-two need to be left. It's pointless having the system for incidents that it gets right if the officials are still getting some wrong like that which can't be reviewed.
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Old 22-09-19, 06:47 PM   #243
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Goals are scored and ruled out.

Goals aren't scored as the linesman wrongly flags, not over turned.

Stupid.
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Old 23-09-19, 07:32 AM   #244
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Big time stupid.

Also, there will be a high profile case where an attacker will be offside, the lino will keep their flag down, they won't score but will get a corner that shouldn't be given, and then they will score from the corner that shouldn't have been given in the first place.

Stupid system alright
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Old 19-10-19, 05:03 PM   #245
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Excellent day for VAR.

Just don't know how they can top it now.
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Old 20-10-19, 06:25 PM   #246
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Excellent day for VAR.

Just don't know how they can top it now.
Well. They somehow managed it.
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Old 20-10-19, 06:37 PM   #247
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Both were correct. Strikers waiting for defenders and falling down is one of the most annoying things in the game. Divok was trailing his right leg hoping for it. And mane trapped the ball between knee and hand.

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Old 20-10-19, 06:38 PM   #248
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Agreed. Except the first one.
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Old 20-10-19, 07:03 PM   #249
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So far it is only used for ball hair handballs and offsides which nobody would have given a fuck about if they weren't picked up. No real howlers and seems to be avoided on the one area it could make a difference. Pens.

It's not working.

Klopp not convinced.


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"They scored a goal which shows all the problems with VAR. Mr Atkinson let the game run I'm sure because there is VAR. For me it was a clear foul. It's a general problem. VAR looks and says 'you decided like this'. But it was a foul. Then we scored a goal that was disallowed. Pretty much everything went against us but we still didn't lose so that is OK.
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Old 20-10-19, 07:08 PM   #250
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It's fucking awful and just used to give even more favours to vermin like them. Sickening. Naively thought at first it'd solve the problems of us getting screwed at Old Trafford etc but it's just made it more likely, that was absolutely scandalous.
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Old 20-10-19, 07:10 PM   #251
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I think Klopp misses the point there. In isolation the challenge on Origi is a foul so play should've stopped. Letting play continue had nothing to do with the ref waiting for VAR to step in
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Old 20-10-19, 08:07 PM   #252
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There is a massive problem here with VAR for me.

If you ask anyone it to consider the foul in isolation everyone will say that it's a foul, it's not the worst foul in the world and Origi maybe makes the most of it, but it's still a foul. Under what circumstances will VAR disallow a goal for a foul in the build up? This is where I feel we need someone to explain why that wasn't overturned. Was it not 'enough' of a foul (if this is the case where is the line?), does the VAR official think that it isn't a foul? Was the foul too far back in the build up? or What?
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Old 20-10-19, 08:10 PM   #253
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I had 5 live commentary and they suggested that they had been told that the VAR didn't think the decision to play on was an error, rather than it being an issue with when and where it happened in relation to the goal.

But they are fair questions. Can a potential free kick 80+ yards from goal really be considered part of the goal for the purposes of VAR? If they're going to make a call on such a foul, why not do it for all of them? A free kick to us in that position could be game changing so why not review it irrespective of the goal? There is so much that doesn't make sense and is overly convoluted.

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Old 20-10-19, 08:11 PM   #254
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There is a massive problem here with VAR for me.

If you ask anyone it to consider the foul in isolation everyone will say that it's a foul, it's not the worst foul in the world and Origi maybe makes the most of it, but it's still a foul. Under what circumstances will VAR disallow a goal for a foul in the build up? This is where I feel we need someone to explain why that wasn't overturned. Was it not 'enough' of a foul (if this is the case where is the line?), does the VAR official think that it isn't a foul? Was the foul too far back in the build up? or What?
Rubbish isn't it. Just blow the whistle ffs
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Old 20-10-19, 08:13 PM   #255
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I had 5 live commentary and they suggested that they had been told that the VAR didn't think the decision to play on was an error, rather than it being an issue with when and where it happened in relation to the goal.
Why would they be given the chance to play on if the foul was against us?
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Old 20-10-19, 08:18 PM   #256
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I meant play on, as in not stop play because there was no reason to, not play advantage.
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Old 20-10-19, 08:30 PM   #257
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There definitely wasn't an advantage to us
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Old 20-10-19, 08:36 PM   #258
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I had 5 live commentary and they suggested that they had been told that the VAR didn't think the decision to play on was an error, rather than it being an issue with when and where it happened in relation to the goal.

But they are fair questions. Can a potential free kick 80+ yards from goal really be considered part of the goal for the purposes of VAR? If they're going to make a call on such a foul, why not do it for all of them? A free kick to us in that position could be game changing so why not review it irrespective of the goal? There is so much that doesn't make sense and is overly convoluted.
Do the media / press get to hear an explanation from the VAR official or is this someone's (a pundit or former referee) speculating on it. I had always assumed that the commentators were speculating on the VAR reasoning.

If we take their view as the real reason then that implies that the referee didn't think that it was a foul (which given how he refereed the game I wouldn't be surprised) and that VAR didn't think that he was clearly wrong in this decision. Personally I don't see how anyone can say that it wasn't a foul, which suggests the reason is something else, or another dispute about what is clear or obvious.
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Old 20-10-19, 08:52 PM   #259
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Klopp's nailed it here.

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Old 21-10-19, 12:51 PM   #260
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Until VAR decisions are aired on screen, like in rugby, so that the crowd can see and react in real time, then these decisions will always be controversial. Having it up on screen, with the conversation between the ref and the VAR team audible will see a lot more decisions reversed.

Why is there such a need for secrecy with these decisions anyway?
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Old 21-10-19, 12:53 PM   #261
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Until VAR decisions are aired on screen, like in rugby, so that the crowd can see and react in real time, then these decisions will always be controversial. Having it up on screen, with the conversation between the ref and the VAR team audible will see a lot more decisions reversed.

Why is there such a need for secrecy with these decisions anyway?
Such openess will be a revelation and possibly bring an end to the distribution of brown envelopes by DBF
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Old 21-10-19, 12:58 PM   #262
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Our decisions yesterday I can just about stomach; the handball is obvious, and the contact on Divock...i dunno, I'd have been pissed if we had a goal ruled out for that.

But the decision against Watford (or was it Wolves...began with a W anyway) vs Spurs, where the defender has hooked his leg and dragged the attacker to the ground, if VAR cannot overrule that, then don't bother looking at incidents, just focus on handballs and offisides, ignore everything else, it's just a sham.
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Old 21-10-19, 03:27 PM   #263
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Our decisions yesterday I can just about stomach; the handball is obvious, and the contact on Divock...i dunno, I'd have been pissed if we had a goal ruled out for that.

But the decision against Watford (or was it Wolves...began with a W anyway) vs Spurs, where the defender has hooked his leg and dragged the attacker to the ground, if VAR cannot overrule that, then don't bother looking at incidents, just focus on handballs and offisides, ignore everything else, it's just a sham.

Agree in the Watford incident, sky have the ref boss in on a monday don't they to discuss any incidents? wonder if he called a sickie today or just waffled his way thru it?...
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Old 26-10-19, 10:34 PM   #264
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More VAR nonsense today, I'm interested in why the the Brighton penalty against Everton was given, it was a foul but the ref didn't give it at the time and VAR overturned it, but there have been a number of similar decisions this season that haven't been overturned, what was different about this one that allows it to be overturned?
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Old 26-10-19, 11:06 PM   #265
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It denied Everton the points so it's all good
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Old 27-10-19, 08:17 AM   #266
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Also the Silva goal for Man City does VAR not have access to all the same angles as the TV? as you could see that Silva got a touch on it from the TV coverage. The defence of the decision to award the goal to Silva seems to be that the dubious goals panel has a lower level of proof than VAR and VAR couldn't clearly and obviously see that he got a touch
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Old 27-10-19, 08:25 AM   #267
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It denied Everton the points so it's all good
It has and while it is amusing to see Everton lose again, from the VAR bigger perspective it's a horrendous decision. All season we have had the bar for overturning a decision not to give penalty set so high that hardly any were overturned, this is has lowered it to the ground. If this is now the standard Everton should have had a pen in that game and we should be getting 3 or 4 a game from now on.
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Old 27-10-19, 09:22 AM   #268
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VAR is going nowhere unfortunately.

It will never get it right. Football and the incidents it makes decisions on are opinion based. There are very decisions that get universal agreement on. Even the bizarre things this season that VAR has caused uproar on has still had plenty of support from people. It's always going to be this way. Handball? Conclusive. Offside? Conclusive. Ball crossed the line? Conclusive. The rest is football. I knew it would go this way. It was fucking obvious. Some guy stuck in a studio watching a replay once, twice, thousand times isn't going to get it right when there isn't a 'right' decision for 100% of people.

The only thing that can happen is it's improved on by letting us at home and in the ground know what they are discussing. Won't happen though.
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Old 27-10-19, 11:00 AM   #269
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VAR - Michael Eberwein concedes penalty while warming up - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/50196446

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Footballers beware, there is no escaping VAR.

Just ask Holstein Kiel midfielder Michael Eberwein, who is a contender for the unluckiest substitute in sport.

Eberwein was warming up behind the goal during a German second division game against Bochum on Friday when he kicked a wayward shot back into play.

However, VAR spotted Eberwein had touched the ball before it had crossed the line, prompting referee Timo Gerach to give a penalty and show him a yellow card.

It is the sort of innocuous incident that may have passed the officials by in previous seasons, but the presence of the eagled-eye VAR cameras means nothing is now missed.

International FA Board (Ifab) rules state if a substitute interferes with play, the referee can take appropriate disciplinary action and restart the game with a direct free-kick or penalty kick.

Congo forward Silvere M'Boussy took advantage of the bizarre moment of fortune by converting the spot-kick to bring Bochum level.

To make things worse for Eberwein, it is his only touch in a Holstein Kiel shirt since joining from Fortuna Cologne over the summer.

He can at least take some consolation from the fact his side went on to win the game thanks to Janni Serra's second-half strike.

His experience sends out a message to players everywhere, though - VAR is watching you. Always.
Fucking jobsworths.
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Old 27-10-19, 11:03 AM   #270
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Don’t see how making that infringement a penalty adds much to the game.
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Old 27-10-19, 11:05 AM   #271
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And he booked him too.
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Old 27-10-19, 11:20 AM   #272
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And he booked him too.
Almost guarantee the guy didn’t know it was an infringement. He hasn’t even made his debut but has given away a pen and been booked. Impressive.
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Old 27-10-19, 11:46 AM   #273
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VAR is going nowhere unfortunately.

It will never get it right. Football and the incidents it makes decisions on are opinion based. There are very decisions that get universal agreement on. Even the bizarre things this season that VAR has caused uproar on has still had plenty of support from people. It's always going to be this way. Handball? Conclusive. Offside? Conclusive. Ball crossed the line? Conclusive. The rest is football. I knew it would go this way. It was fucking obvious. Some guy stuck in a studio watching a replay once, twice, thousand times isn't going to get it right when there isn't a 'right' decision for 100% of people.

The only thing that can happen is it's improved on by letting us at home and in the ground know what they are discussing. Won't happen though.
I get that, I know that I have been a big critic of VAR but for much of the season the application has been fairly consistent, particularly in relation to penalties, when the referee hasn't given a penalty the bar has been set very high to overturn that, if anything some penalties that really should have been given haven't but any that have been have been nailed on, the one yesterday for Brighton penalty was way off that standard, and inconsistent with what has gone on all season. I don't think that awarding that was a questionable decision within the same guidlines, it's as though they were applying completely different guidelines.
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Old 27-10-19, 02:12 PM   #274
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More VAR nonsense today, I'm interested in why the the Brighton penalty against Everton was given, it was a foul but the ref didn't give it at the time and VAR overturned it, but there have been a number of similar decisions this season that haven't been overturned, what was different about this one that allows it to be overturned?
The right decisions is surely what matters at the end of the day though? That the others were not is an error on those decisions. It shouldn't mean that decisions are not overturned because officials have failed to do so previously. It is almost as if it is protecting the ego of referees and not wishing to highlight during the game that they got something wrong.

Obviously it's crap for those teams that should have benefited and didn't but getting it right going forward should be the objective and for me that doesn't mean maintaining the standards for a decision that we started with. Its about adapting and tweaking. Now there is an argument that should only be done in the close season so things are at least consistent for the whole campaign but if things can be improved why not do it right away.

Something is either a foul or not. There is no grading beyond that other than intent or recklessness that can warrant a sanction in the way of a booking/red card. If the ref has not awarded a penalty but it is a foul surely that by definition makes it clear and obvious?
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Old 27-10-19, 02:20 PM   #275
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More VAR nonsense today, I'm interested in why the the Brighton penalty against Everton was given, it was a foul but the ref didn't give it at the time and VAR overturned it, but there have been a number of similar decisions this season that haven't been overturned, what was different about this one that allows it to be overturned?
It wasn't even a foul for me. If a striker is going to swing his foot out so that it is under a defenders foot who's running naturally, well that's his problem. VAR intervened and got it wrong imo.
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Old 27-10-19, 02:35 PM   #276
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The right decisions is surely what matters at the end of the day though? That the others were not is an error on those decisions. It shouldn't mean that decisions are not overturned because officials have failed to do so previously. It is almost as if it is protecting the ego of referees and not wishing to highlight during the game that they got something wrong.

Obviously it's crap for those teams that should have benefited and didn't but getting it right going forward should be the objective and for me that doesn't mean maintaining the standards for a decision that we started with. Its about adapting and tweaking. Now there is an argument that should only be done in the close season so things are at least consistent for the whole campaign but if things can be improved why not do it right away.

Something is either a foul or not. There is no grading beyond that other than intent or recklessness that can warrant a sanction in the way of a booking/red card. If the ref has not awarded a penalty but it is a foul surely that by definition makes it clear and obvious?
Yes getting the decision right is important, but so is consistency, the question is does the award of the pen indicate a change in approach for VAR or was it that the person making the decision not following the guidelines.

Also I think that there is a difference between there being contact and it being a foul. Contact doesn't necessarily equal a foul, which is where the ambiguity comes in, if it did we'd get 4 or 5 pens a game.
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Old 27-10-19, 02:45 PM   #277
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It wasn't even a foul for me. If a striker is going to swing his foot out so that it is under a defenders foot who's running naturally, well that's his problem. VAR intervened and got it wrong imo.
I think that if the ref sees it and it's outside the box, he probably gives a foul, if he sees it inside the box he doesn't give a foul, obviously being inside or outside the box shouldn't make a difference but the reality is that refs are much more likely to give a freekick than a pen for a soft foul. On the guidance of VAR this season there is no way that should be overturned, with the guidance of the last WC it would have been a pen, but we got way too many soft pens in that. The problem is the lack of consistency, and that showed in the Brighton Everton game, as if that one was given, Everton should have had one earlier.
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Old 27-10-19, 04:37 PM   #278
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Yes getting the decision right is important, but so is consistency, the question is does the award of the pen indicate a change in approach for VAR or was it that the person making the decision not following the guidelines.

Also I think that there is a difference between there being contact and it being a foul. Contact doesn't necessarily equal a foul, which is where the ambiguity comes in, if it did we'd get 4 or 5 pens a game.
I agree contact does not mean a foul but the same pundits who are not getting moralistic about diving are the same ones that for years gone by have being uttering phrases such as 'entitled to go down' so its no winder people make the most of any contact. I don't think there would be discussions about the foul if it was given outside the box and Brighton scored directly from the resulting free kick. There would be some discussions if the penalty was awarded by the ref as to whether it was and I think the conclusion would be it is not obviously wrong to overturn.

I think comparisons with rugby that often crop up about VAR are misleading. I think the nature of offences in rugby make them much more black and white and that is where the problem of consistency comes in. The more human judgement required the more inconsistency there will be.

edit: I see you address the point about the location of the challenge in your next post. And that itself is a consistency problem.
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Old 27-10-19, 05:28 PM   #279
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I agree contact does not mean a foul but the same pundits who are not getting moralistic about diving are the same ones that for years gone by have being uttering phrases such as 'entitled to go down' so its no winder people make the most of any contact. I don't think there would be discussions about the foul if it was given outside the box and Brighton scored directly from the resulting free kick. There would be some discussions if the penalty was awarded by the ref as to whether it was and I think the conclusion would be it is not obviously wrong to overturn.

I think comparisons with rugby that often crop up about VAR are misleading. I think the nature of offences in rugby make them much more black and white and that is where the problem of consistency comes in. The more human judgement required the more inconsistency there will be.

edit: I see you address the point about the location of the challenge in your next post. And that itself is a consistency problem.
I agree that there is an inconsistency about locations, as I say a ref is more likely to give a freekick than a penalty for the same 'soft' offence and while I don't agree with it I understand the reasoning (a penalty should really result in a goal, a freekick is much less likely to), that inconsistency has been in the game for years.

If VAR is supposed to be eliminating mistakes and getting more key decisions right (or perhaps I should say not clearly wrong ) there needs to be a consistency in how it is applied, as I have made clear previously I am not a fan of VAR, but it's use so far has been relatively consistent in it's approach to giving penalties that the ref on the pitch hasn't given, generally we have been complaining that it hasn't overturned the refs decision to award a penalty when many think it should have, I don't think we have seen an incident where VAR has changed the refs decision and given a controversial penalty. I have said for a while someone should be explaining these decisions to the fans (both in the stadium and on TV) because I would love to know why that one was overturned when dozens of others haven't been. Personally I think it was a mistake by the VAR official but we haven't been told anything which affects how teams play. For example we play Spurs today we could concede 4 penalties because Kane, Alli et al initiate contact with our defenders and throw themselves to the floor and VAR has decided any contact now equals a penalty.

Pundits have been mentioning the on pitch official looking at the video monitor and making the decision for consistency which would help but it takes longer to make the decision and it slows the game down.
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Old 27-10-19, 06:32 PM   #280
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Sky saying Man Utd given 2 pens by VAR that weren't given by the official on the pitch, I've not seen either, but it's interesting...
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