It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register please click here...

est1892

Go Back   est1892 > Football > Liverpool FC

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-11-19, 01:37 AM   #41
foresterbloke
Run the Jewels
 
foresterbloke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 32,389
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigChief View Post
Mendy was woeful defensively, is Zinchenko fit?

Bravo
Bernado Walker Ferna Otamendi Sterling
Mahrez Rodri Gundo KdB
Aguero
I have an injury list table in the first post!

PS. Man City injury list updated.
__________________
And then one day you find ten years have got behind you.
No one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun.
foresterbloke is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 07-11-19, 03:33 AM   #42
Rigadon
Shankly
 
Rigadon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,269
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I would start AOC with Fab and Gini, but I think Henderson will start.
I also think Henderson will start. But AOC from the bench is a great option.

What about Lovren or Gomez at CB? Will it be considered or definitely Lovren?
__________________
Another MASSIVE game
Rigadon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 04:12 AM   #43
frank the tank
Shankly
 
frank the tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,013
I think Lovren will start
frank the tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 08:23 AM   #44
Irishnev
Shankly
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by frank the tank View Post
I think Lovren will start
So do I I know I can be overly harsh on him but in these big games it’s about small margins and one mistake from him can be the difference. Obviously anyone can make an error but he has previous form vs City. We need him at 100% concentration mode
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 08:52 AM   #45
rodo
Shankly
 
rodo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,236
on current form I would take lovren over gomez
__________________
Oh I say his vision there was lovely
rodo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 08:57 AM   #46
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishnev View Post
So do I I know I can be overly harsh on him but in these big games it’s about small margins and one mistake from him can be the difference. Obviously anyone can make an error but he has previous form vs City. We need him at 100% concentration mode
He does have previous form v City.

He started when we beat them 3-0, 3-0 (CL), 4-3 and 2-1 (CL). He also started when we drew 0-0 last season and when we lost 2-1.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 09:16 AM   #47
frank the tank
Shankly
 
frank the tank's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,013
I think there isn't too much in it between Lovren and Gomez. I suspect the fact that Lovren has played alongside Virgil in Premier League games recently will mean that Dejan gets the nod.
frank the tank is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 09:27 AM   #48
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
Right now Lovren is in better form and has more big game experience.

Obviously I hope he doesn’t make any costly mistakes, but I hope that of all of them.

Remember Virgil made a big mistake when we lost 2-1 away to them. They are a tough team to play against, but I think Lovren will do a great job for us.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 10:03 AM   #49
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rigadon View Post
I also think Henderson will start. But AOC from the bench is a great option.

What about Lovren or Gomez at CB? Will it be considered or definitely Lovren?
I can't believe I'm saying it but I hope Lovren starts and think he will. Gomez is way off it at the moment.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 11:09 AM   #50
Harv
Randy Marsh
 
Harv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 22,568
Yeah Gomie's well out of sorts and he needs a continuous run of games to get back into it IMO

Shitty's not the game to be giving him a confidence boost in though
__________________
"When a man insults my country I insult him, by taking his woman" Tony Yeboah

"looking through your posts since 2007 and what you have consistently written about my football team I have come to the conclusion that if you had 1 more brain cell you would be a plant .. your father was a hamster and your mother smells of elder berries, I fart in your general direction ..." Nicey
Harv is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 11:09 AM   #51
SB
Paisley
 
SB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,628
Allison
TAA Lovren VVD Robertson
Ox or Millie Fabinho Gini
Salah Firmino Mane

Adrian
Hendo
Ox or Millie
Lallana
Origi
Keita
Gomez

I do expect to see Hendo start but we’ve played better without him in all honesty (or when he’s been subbed off. ) His form doesn’t warrant a guaranteed start at present imo especially with the Ox showing he’s capable of hitting the back of the net recently.
__________________
No 1 Klopp supporter

Last edited by SB; 07-11-19 at 11:13 AM.
SB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 11:19 AM   #52
danperkins
Martin Skrtel can win a game of Connect Four in three moves
 
danperkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 35,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I can't believe I'm saying it but I hope Lovren starts and think he will. Gomez is way off it at the moment.
he has been all over the place alright. His pace has got him out of some pretty poor positional errors so I reluctantly say I hope we start with Dejan.

What I hope more than anything is that we go at them full tilt, their defence is an absolute shambles. IMO it is the only way to play against them and be effective, they are just not used to teams taking the game to them.
__________________
When in doubt, mumble.
danperkins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 11:35 AM   #53
SB
Paisley
 
SB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,628
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Pink View Post
A few career-threatening injuries tonight would be class
I may or may not have been thinking along those lines while watching Sterling & co running around this morning.
__________________
No 1 Klopp supporter
SB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 11:52 AM   #54
gratziani
Dalglish
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,211
Surely we need to blitz these first 20 minutes.

Pep is worried already this season , loving it
gratziani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 12:10 PM   #55
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
The team when we battered them 3-0 in the CL in 2018. This has to be in Klopps mind with the Ox scoring a screamer and playing really well.

—————————-Loris K

Trent———-Lovren————-Virgil———-Robbo

————Ox———-Hendo———-Milner

Salah——————Firmino———————Mane

Swap in Alisson and Fabinho (Milner),

We are stronger now.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 01:18 PM   #56
Tribute
Dalglish
 
Tribute's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 4,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
The team when we battered them 3-0 in the CL in 2018. This has to be in Klopps mind with the Ox scoring a screamer and playing really well.

—————————-Loris K

Trent———-Lovren————-Virgil———-Robbo

————Ox———-Hendo———-Milner

Salah——————Firmino———————Mane

Swap in Alisson and Fabinho (Milner),

We are stronger now.
Good team that with the subs you mention...
I'd really like to see us fly out of the blocks at home and see if the atmosphere and high tempo can really rattle them.

We've not come out the blocks with any team of late... can't even remember the last time we went 2-up in the first 20-30 mins...? Seemed to happen regularly last season...
Tribute is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 01:59 PM   #57
Irishnev
Shankly
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,727
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
He does have previous form v City.

He started when we beat them 3-0, 3-0 (CL), 4-3 and 2-1 (CL). He also started when we drew 0-0 last season and when we lost 2-1.
I remember the defeat vs City last year and being at fault for the Aguero goal

I want perfection Buzzo....... surely you’ve figured that by now
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 02:08 PM   #58
Mr Pink
Souness
 
Mr Pink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 88
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
The team when we battered them 3-0 in the CL in 2018. This has to be in Klopps mind with the Ox scoring a screamer and playing really well.

—————————-Loris K

Trent———-Lovren————-Virgil———-Robbo

————Ox———-Hendo———-Milner

Salah——————Firmino———————Mane

Swap in Alisson and Fabinho (Milner),

We are stronger now.


After Fabinho, surely gini is the next name on the team sheet in midfield. I think later on in the season ox will be a starter, but I think this is too soon for him. He said himself after the game on Tuesday, that he’s not 100% yet- we need to give him time. This isn’t genk or arsenal B team. Still, I think he will be a great option for the last 20 min if we need a goal.
__________________
I don't tip
Mr Pink is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-19, 06:29 PM   #59
Irishnev
Shankly
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,727
I think this game will suit Hendo, we expect them to dominate the ball so his high work rate and drive will hopefully disrupt them
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 08:31 AM   #60
Irishnev
Shankly
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 6,727

“Please don’t create a hostile atmosphere before the game, you might scare our players”.....

If anything it will stoke it up further
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 08-11-19, 09:15 AM   #61
BigChief
Paisley
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 10,860
Stoke... and then points deduction? Doable. Well played City.
__________________
It's Kloppering time!
BigChief is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:02 AM   #62
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
We are almost every pundits favourite for this game which is disconcerting. A few have the draw most have us down to win.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:20 AM   #63
rodo
Shankly
 
rodo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 8,236
They are fucking rattled big time
__________________
Oh I say his vision there was lovely
rodo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:26 AM   #64
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,413
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:31 AM   #65
Phoenix07
The Normal One
 
Phoenix07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,566
The new tactical phenomenon?

They were talking about it when Benitez and Mourinho first came to England in 2004.
Phoenix07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:35 AM   #66
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,413
Good read though imo
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 11:47 AM   #67
Phoenix07
The Normal One
 
Phoenix07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,566
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
Good read though imo
Yeah it is, and some of it does show the difference between Guardiola and most other coaches and managers.

Even in Honigstein's book on Klopp, he was talking about measuring distances between certain players, and training did get boring, but once it's clicked, it's so effective. Can you imagine Solskjaer doing that at Man Utd?
Phoenix07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:08 PM   #68
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
Definitely a good read.

Interesting that Peps obsession with total control leaves them tactically vulnerable against a good team. Backed up by the fact that they struggle more against teams who have a go against them.

We can play that way, but we’ve also proved (CL final) that we can sit back and soak up pressure also.

Fascinating battle.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:22 PM   #69
RedReet
Fantasy Football Champion
 
RedReet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,968
I love how articles like this (probably less so this actually) break down what our midfielders do and the importance of their role. Everyone reads it, yet next match 10 mins in, "midfield shit", "Gini anonymous" etc, then shit like "why can't Klopp see this", or his "achilles heel" I think read on here.
RedReet is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:25 PM   #70
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,413
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedReet View Post
I love how articles like this (probably less so this actually) break down what our midfielders do and the importance of their role. Everyone reads it, yet next match 10 mins in, "midfield shit", "Gini anonymous" etc, then shit like "why can't Klopp see this", or his "achilles heel" I think read on here.
I keep seeing people on Twitter saying it's Klopp's 'blind spot'.

Yep, Malcolm from Woking has got it sussed and Klopp just can't see it.

I mean, our midfielders aren't great all the time, and they had a shocking 1st half at Villa, but overall, clearly, they serve us extremely well. The over-analysis and criticism is a bit nuts.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:32 PM   #71
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedReet View Post
I love how articles like this (probably less so this actually) break down what our midfielders do and the importance of their role. Everyone reads it, yet next match 10 mins in, "midfield shit", "Gini anonymous" etc, then shit like "why can't Klopp see this", or his "achilles heel" I think read on here.


Particularly Henderson has suffered from this massively over the last three years.
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:34 PM   #72
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I keep seeing people on Twitter saying it's Klopp's 'blind spot'.

Yep, Malcolm from Woking has got it sussed and Klopp just can't see it.

I mean, our midfielders aren't great all the time, and they had a shocking 1st half at Villa, but overall, clearly, they serve us extremely well. The over-analysis and criticism is a bit nuts.


And also, as you have pointed out, the unbeaten run we have been on. We've lost once in fucking 50 games or whatever with a wank midfield
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:34 PM   #73
Phoenix07
The Normal One
 
Phoenix07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,566
It didn't stop Klopp from possibly wanting to upgrade our whole midfield in 2018, with Fabinho, Keita, and Fekir.

However, like I said before, Klopp wasn't looking to sell Henderson, Wijnaldum etc, either. They've got us to 2 Champions League Finals and 97 points in the Premier League, so it's clear they're not as bad some make out either.
Phoenix07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:56 PM   #74
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 63,481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix07 View Post
It didn't stop Klopp from possibly wanting to upgrade our whole midfield in 2018, with Fabinho, Keita, and Fekir.

However, like I said before, Klopp wasn't looking to sell Henderson, Wijnaldum etc, either. They've got us to 2 Champions League Finals and 97 points in the Premier League, so it's clear they're not as bad some make out either.
Yet in 2019 he didn't. So he's clearly happy with it.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:59 PM   #75
Angryred
Dalglish
 
Angryred's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,643
Just brought in those two players to complement what was at his disposal rather than overhaul.
__________________
Nope, don't need anger management, you just need to stop pissing me off!
Angryred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 12:59 PM   #76
Scratch
If you fail once....
 
Scratch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix07 View Post
It didn't stop Klopp from possibly wanting to upgrade our whole midfield in 2018, with Fabinho, Keita, and Fekir.

However, like I said before, Klopp wasn't looking to sell Henderson, Wijnaldum etc, either. They've got us to 2 Champions League Finals and 97 points in the Premier League, so it's clear they're not as bad some make out either.
Don't think it was looking to upgrade, but to provide cover, options and rotation.
__________________
Scratch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 01:09 PM   #77
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,413
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...loathing-last/


Quote:
Liverpool and Manchester City can't stand each other - their mutual loathing at last makes this a proper rivalry

JAMIE CARRAGHER

I had an immediate thought when I heard Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp exchange barbed comments ahead of Liverpool against Manchester City this week: “About time.”

There was something unnatural about the Premier League’s two leading managers competing for the title without an extra edge to their relationship.

Until the past seven days, the mutual respect was denying us a feud to match the early years of Sir Alex Ferguson v Arsene Wenger or Jose Mourinho v Rafa Benitez.

I am not encouraging all-out verbal warfare between the Manchester City and Liverpool managers, but when one club is a direct threat to the ambitions of another it is obvious the tensions, frustrations and irritations one is causing the other will surface. As long as it remains within the boundaries of good taste it is hugely entertaining. There is not a football fan among us that does not love a managerial scrap.

It would be strange if there was not the occasional spat between the coaches, like two heavyweight boxers sitting around the promoters in the build-up to a world title fight. By the end of their careers, Guardiola and Klopp already know their trophy haul will be lighter directly because of the other. That has to irk them.

Manchester City’s extraordinary run at the end of last season denied Klopp and Liverpool what, in any other year, would have been a deserved title. Whatever the appearances publicly, and whatever the consolation of being Champions League winners, this was a cause for despair on Merseyside and there is a determination not to endure a repeat.

Equally, it is not hard to imagine the annoyance at The Etihad when Liverpool won the Champions League and the global coverage dwarfed City’s achievement of an unprecedented domestic treble. City’s last couple of title wins filled the new cycle for 24 hours. Because of Liverpool’s size and popularity, a first title in 30 years at Anfield will undoubtedly generate much more media attention.

I do not believe I am exaggerating when I say the hierarchies of Liverpool and City cannot stand each other, resentments which are reflected in the fanbases. City appear to suspect Liverpool of lobbying governing bodies to investigate the legality of their transfer spending, while they make no secret of their belief that the positive coverage of the Klopp era is disproportionate when compared to Guardiola’s trophy haul, and City’s in general since the Abu Dhabi takeover. Within Liverpool, eyebrows are raised when stories emerge about fears of another attack on City's bus as happened in the Champions League semi-final in 2018, and there was incredulity at Guardiola's comments about Sadio Mane's diving. As Klopp suggested, it certainly feels like Guardiola talks about Liverpool more than Klopp does Manchester City, and City generally seem preoccupied with how Liverpool are portrayed in the media. I know for a fact John W Henry, Liverpool's principal owner, recently labelled Guardiola as 'a bit of a cunt'.

These tensions have never been echoed by the managers or players, many of whom appear to be friends as they are international team-mates. I do not recall any interview with Liverpool or City players speaking ill of their rivals, and the admiration between the coaches is obvious.

What made Guardiola’s dig at Mane so surprising - and may explain why he subsequently backtracked - is it served only to inflame the ill-will at Anfield before City’s visit, finally provoking Klopp to retaliate.

Whether Guardiola had made the remark or not, Anfield will be at its most hostile on Sunday, but he has not helped his players with the timing. These games are now comparable to the visits of Chelsea when Mourinho took over in 2004. He too had a habit of being disparaging about Liverpool in the build-up to Anfield visits and people would wonder how we felt it in the dressing room.

Honestly? We absolutely loved it. You know all the cliches you hear about motivation and helping the manager’s team talks... it is absolutely true. It only needs the suggestion of an insult to enable a coach to fire up his players, and certainly in Liverpool’s case whip up The Kop. Mourinho often succeeded as much as a rallying cry from the manager or captain - and we readily accepted the invitation to use whatever he said. Klopp will do likewise.

The Liverpool manager’ reference to City’s ‘tactical fouling’ was a shot back, echoing comments by Ole Gunnar Solskjaer last season. Solskjaer’s remarks angered City so much they rushed out statistics to the press in an attempt to show they commit fewer fouls than their rivals.

Guardiola seemed to acknowledge his miscalculation by refusing to comment about Liverpool in midweek. Some suggested he was being cynical and deliberate with his earlier observations about Mane. They struck me as more emotional than calculated.

Over the last month Liverpool have secured seven extra points just when it seemed they would draw, or even lose a game - points that would give the Premier League table a different complexion. Mane has been fundamental to that by winning two penalties, one of which was contentious against Leicester City.

Having heard Mane had scored the last-minute winner last Saturday - and been booked for diving in the game at Aston Villa - Guardiola betrayed his emotions in the TV interview following his own team’s late win over Southampton. For a brief moment coming off the pitch last week he must have thought the gaps was down to four or even three points, only to recognise it could be nine by Sunday night. Why wouldn’t that infuriate you? It is nothing to do with ‘mind games’. Guardiola sounded more like a fan who could not hide how fed up he was that his direct rival had won in the last minute again. If Mane had not been the match-winner, I doubt he would have bitten on the question.

Klopp’s response 48 hours later seemed more considered as he had time to think about what to say. He has home advantage and there is no manager better at utilising that.

He knows Anfield is in Guardiola’s head. The City manager admitted as much in an honest interview during which he was hugely flattering to Liverpool at the end of last season.

“The motto “This is Anfield” is no marketing spin,” he said. “There’s something about it that you will find in no other stadium in the world. They score a goal in the next five minutes you feel that you’ll receive another four.”

Liverpool versus City is now the biggest game of the season for both managers, for the Premier League, and arguably the most attractive fixture in world football given how both teams play.

There have been several huge Premier League games for Liverpool recently, particularly last season and going back to the 2014 season, but none which have given the club a chance to assume such a strong position. A Liverpool win would make it very difficult for City to retain their title. A City win will re-establish them as favourites, knowing the only difference between the teams would be a home win at The Etihad later this season.

I wrote last season we were in the midst of the great Premier League rivalry of the era. We cannot be sure how many more battles between these two supercoaches remain so we should cherish every second of it while we can. There is nothing phoney about this ‘war’ between the clubs and the managers.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 01:12 PM   #78
Yozza
Shankly
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,592
'Bit of a cunt'

Spot on John H....

__________________
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

Bob's Miserable Bastards Club Member #2
Yozza is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 01:50 PM   #79
Deano
Shankly
 
Deano's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,895
“No but they can’t be serious, come on.” That was the verdict of Manchester City chairman Khaldoon Al Mubarak when told how much Southampton wanted for Virgil van Dijk this time two years ago.

With the asking price set at £75 million City decided — as they often do — that they did not see the fee as sensible, and walked away.

Given they turned their attentions to Aymeric Laporte, who has barely put a foot wrong since signing from Athletic Bilbao for £57 million and whose absence has been so keenly felt this season, there are very few, if any, regrets about that decision.

Perhaps the only one tinge would be that, had City’s senior figures decided that £75 million was a fair price to pay for Van Dijk, then the defender would not have had the transformative effect on Liverpool, who have been a thorn in the club’s side for the past 18 months, and who could take the title from them this season.

Yet had City signed Van Dijk, then Liverpool might have moved for Laporte and the difference would not have been so significant.

It is but one example of the constant off-field battle that the two clubs are locked into that they often target the same players.

The Fenway Sports Group president Mike Gordon and Liverpool sporting director Michael Edwards had no concerns about the fee for Van Dijk. They were convinced that he would transform a porous backline that had lacked a true leader since Jamie Carragher’s retirement in 2013.
Jurgen Klopp shared that belief in the Dutchman’s quality but sought reassurances from the Anfield hierarchy that the club wouldn’t be overstretching themselves by sanctioning a record-breaking deal for a defender.

Liverpool viewed the capture of Van Dijk as a significant triumph. The previous summer the former Celtic defender had made it clear that after weighing up his options he favoured Merseyside over City and Chelsea when all three were vying for his services.

Klopp’s charm offensive had worked a treat with the manager selling Van Dijk his vision for a trophy-laden future. The passion of Liverpool’s fans also influenced the player’s decision. Van Dijk attended the 2017 Champions League final in Cardiff as a fan and was besieged by supporters urging him to head for Anfield.
When Liverpool were accused of tapping up Van Dijk and issued a public apology to Southampton, both parties agreed to sit tight until the January window. Gordon repaired relations with the Southampton chairman Ralph Krueger to get the deal done.

Liverpool believe the real reason City didn’t meet the asking price for Van Dijk is because they had been given no encouragement that he wanted to go there.
If City had got Van Dijk then it’s highly likely that Laporte would be a Liverpool player. The club’s recruitment staff had tracked in excess of 30 centre-backs from across Europe over an 18-month period.

A list of four “A-grade” targets was drawn up. Van Dijk was the priority with Laporte, who had a £57 million release clause, viewed as the perfect alternative. Napoli’s Kalidou Koulibaly and Bayern Munich’s Jerome Boateng were also considered.

The All or Nothing documentary that charted City’s 2017-18 season showed the ins and outs of Laporte’s arrival, with chief operating officer Omar Berrada and club lawyers sent to Madrid to pay the Frenchman’s buy-out clause. It offered an interesting glimpse into the world of top-level transfers, but did omit one very common element; a last-ditch moving of the goalposts.

Already aboard the club chartered private jet, Laporte’s lawyer suddenly asked for more money, leading to hurried conversations between Berrada and his colleagues back in Manchester. City have ended transfer moves over similar hiccups, but found a compromise to land them their “absolute priority” target.
It is inevitable that England’s two top clubs, who both play a high-intensity, attacking brand of football, and have both seemingly set an upper limit on their spending on any one player, will often have scouts at matches across the world, keeping their eyes on exactly the same player.

High-profile transfer deals, though, are only one area in which the Premier League’s leading clubs are going head to head.

It recently came to light that Liverpool had paid City £1 million in a legal settlement back in 2013 after allegedly hacking into one of the club’s scouting platforms, using the log-in of a City employee. The payment was made without the club, or the individuals named (Edwards, Dave Fallows and Julian Ward), accepting any liability or wrongdoing. Both clubs have since remained tight-lipped about the allegations.

It was an unprecedented breach of security and one that the FA is still investigating, but it helps tell the story of the off-field battle that top clubs across Europe, and not least these two, are locked into.

Whatever information or data Liverpool gleaned it appears to have had little impact on their transfer dealings around the period June 2012 to February 2013, which has come under scrutiny considering they ended up buying the likes of Fabio Borini, Joe Allen, Iago Aspas, Simon Mignolet and Mamadou Sakho.

Edwards secured the services of both Fallows and Barry Hunter from City in 2012 when Liverpool overhauled their recruitment staff after the departures of the director of football Damien Comolli and the manager Kenny Dalglish. The club later hired another three City scouts in Ward, Andy Sayer and Kevin Hunt.

Klopp credits Fallows, the head of recruitment, and the chief scout Hunter as playing key roles in Liverpool’s resurgence in recent years with their contribution to the club’s dealings in the transfer market. They were pivotal in pushing the claims of Roberto Firmino, Mohamed Salah and Fabinho.

Ward, who was a South American scout for City, is also highly respected at Liverpool having been promoted from European scouting manager for Spain and Portugal to the role of loan pathways and football partnerships manager back in 2015.

The world of top-level scouting and transfers is often contradictory. For one thing, there is a global scouting WhatsApp group that contains the most senior figures of football’s biggest clubs, as well as scouts and coaches in youth academies. It is one big chat, and on any given weekend it will be buzzing about whichever big matches are taking place — City’s 5-0 victory over Liverpool in 2017-18 among them, for example.

And by the time a transfer market rolls around, many top clubs know more or less what their rivals are looking for, either in terms of positions or more specific names.
But much of the process before that is shrouded in secrecy, locked away on encrypted laptops and discussed in hushed tones even in top-level meetings; City’s “Senior Leadership Team”, which includes the chief executive Ferran Soriano, director of football Txiki Begiristain and Berrada, as well as their assistants, lawyers and communications and HR staff, regularly meet to discuss important issues, but the names of specific transfer targets are withheld. Only the likes of Soriano, Begiristain and Berrada, as well as chairman al-Mubarak, are party to the players under consideration.

Coaching is similar; as one example Guardiola’s staff came up with new passing combinations designed to work especially well in the Champions League last season, which were stored on password protected laptops. When FA staff have been at the City training ground for whatever reason, tactics boards and notes have been covered or hidden.

A year ago City’s whole security system was upgraded and made more robust in light of the Football Leaks hacks, with staff of all levels also needing to change their email passwords every month.

The league champions use a range of different online scouting tools to inform their transfer plans; WyScout, InStat and Scout7 are among those used, each serving similar but different purposes. Any player in the world can be searched and each of his moves are broken down into different areas, such as defensive positioning, crossing or link-up play, but Scout7, which was the program Liverpool’s staff used to access City’s data, is best used for exporting information to apps and creating detailed reports on players.

Although transfer meetings between the most senior staff utilise a lot of video, decisions are not based solely on technology. City boast a vast network of scouts who are charged with attending matches and watching players in person and compiling detailed reports on their personalities, with a view to ensuring any new player will fit into the dressing room, and adapt to life in a new environment. Despite City’s success in the transfer market in recent years, they have been creating those reports for years, and helped inform moves for David Silva and Sergio Aguero, among others.

SportsCode is a common programme used to analyse matches by clubs across the country, and it also helps inform transfer planning; Guardiola watches City games back before passing on timestamps to his analysts and charging them with relaying their findings back to the players. The data collected helps build a picture of the type of strengths needed for a player in any given position, and potential signings can then be scouted on that basis.

City’s senior figures also use their contacts around the world to inform on potential targets, with Ronald Koeman, Pep Guardiola’s former Barcelona team-mate, consulted on the pursuit of Ajax’s Frankie De Jong, for example.

De Jong was identified as a “Category A” target, as opposed to B or C. With most of the world’s top, rich clubs vying for the same players, City try to catch their rivals off guard by acting early, and after deciding what they are willing to pay for a player between al-Mubarak, Soriano and Begiristain they work to tie up signings long before the window opens. Manchester United are known to open talks with several players for the same position all at the same time, only to sign one at the end of the process. City, by contrast, identify their top target for one position and get to work as early as possible on signing him and him alone.

This has led to them securing pretty much all of their targets of the Guardiola era, including Ilkay Gundogan, Bernardo Silva, Ederson, Benjamin Mendy, Kyle Walker, Riyad Mahrez and Rodri, give or take a bit of haggling later down the line.

But it has also led to near misses on several priority targets, and due to the months of groundwork they put into transfers they have been unable to find alternative options at relatively short notice, which has angered Guardiola on several occasions.

De Jong is one such example. Around this time 12 months ago Barcelona officials were resigned to losing out on the promising Dutchman, given the amount of meetings Begiristain had held with Ajax and the player’s agent, and the personal terms that had been agreed upon. After missing out on Jorginho that summer, Guardiola and his staff had made it clear De Jong was the one they wanted.

Barcelona, however, decided to pull out all the stops last December, dispatching their own delegation to Amsterdam with the aim of signing the youngster no matter what. In the end they paid him upwards of €200,000 per week, as well as €5 million to the agent. It was one of those occasions where City had lost out on a top target, but would not have paid the kind of figures suddenly being quoted anyway.

It was a similar situation when they decided not to match the £85 million that United were willing to pay Leicester for Harry Maguire, who had already agreed terms with City but was equally happy to move to Old Trafford, where he saw himself as a guaranteed starter and soon to be in with a shout of becoming club captain. Guardiola and his assistant Mikel Arteta’s anger was sparked again in the wake of Laporte’s injury in August, with the two coaches wondering how their current options would leave them able to win at Anfield. Yes, that is the barometer.

The battle for young talents is no less competitive, and it is a race that also includes United and Everton. Even top sporting brands have their own scouts who are charged with beating their business rivals to the country’s most talented youth prospects. Pairs of boots are often sent to players in a bid to woo them.
As far as City and Liverpool are concerned, there is a huge financial gap in academy expenditure. Liverpool’s is run on an annual budget of around £10 million, and they believe City’s costs more than double that.

Under academy director Alex Inglethorpe, Liverpool took the decision to limit most first-year professionals to a basic salary of around £40,000 per year. Contracts are heavily incentivised with bonuses linked to appearances and promotion to the first-team squad. It’s about ensuring teenagers retain their hunger and Inglethorpe is convinced it’s working.

“I’ve never worked with a player who has fulfilled his potential and been overpaid when he was young,” he says.
There are far greater riches on offer for families at City. Liverpool’s youngsters that are still in education go to Rainhill High, a comprehensive school a short drive from Kirkby.

City’s youngsters attend the private £12,000 per year St Bede’s College for lessons in the mornings before training at the Etihad Campus in the afternoons.
An agent who represents players in both academies told The Athletic: “The financial packages that City offer young players and their families are on a different level to Liverpool. If money is the motivation then City usually get their own way. You’ve got first year pros at City earning £4,500 per week rising to £6,000 per week in their second year. Liverpool don’t pay anything close to that. It’s the same with agents fees at academy level.
“For Liverpool, the big selling point is Jurgen Klopp and the pathway for young players through to the first team. The fact that Trent Alexander-Arnold is a regular helps them massively.

“Klopp goes out of his way to meet young players who are considering joining the club. He did it with Harvey Elliott and Ki-Jana Hoever and that personal touch makes a massive difference.

“City are always going to go and buy ready-made players so that makes it much more difficult for youngsters trying to breakthrough.”
Liverpool, who operate with smaller youth squads than City in a bid to focus on quality rather than quantity, picked up Rafael Camacho from City after he was released in 2016 and subsequently sold him to Sporting Lisbon in a £7 million deal last month.
They also signed Bobby Duncan from City’s youth ranks in 2018 after the England youth international had been locked in a protracted contract dispute with the Manchester club. Liverpool paid £200,000 in compensation for him and made a hefty profit when he demanded a move and was sold to Fiorentina for £1.8 million in September.
Duncan didn’t have the patience to wait for his opportunity but Klopp has already handed out six debuts so far this season which helps the club’s academy staff massively when it comes to attracting talent.

Liverpool have channelled resources into trying to ensure they get recruitment right at pre-academy level. They believe if they can educate parents of seven-year-olds and eight-year-olds about why Liverpool is the best place for their kids to develop then they will stay put and resist the lure of the Etihad Campus.
“This area is even more competitive for recruitment than London,” Inglethorpe says. “Here, you have four very big clubs within an hour-and-a-half’s drive. You have to try to get it right at an early stage but you also have to be careful that you don’t stop looking after that.”

Academy games between the clubs carry an extra edge which made Liverpool’s FA Youth Cup final triumph over City on penalties at the Etihad Campus back in April all the sweeter for them.

Both City and Liverpool have been found guilty of breaching youth player recruitment rules by the FA in recent years, although in scouting and coaching circles it is seen as merely pushing the boundaries, and something that happens all the time. Clubs across the country are known to make bonus payments to the parents of their best academy prospects via expenses, “scouting” duties that amount to watching their own sons play football, or even buying houses.

It is big business and clubs are constantly looking at their rivals to see what they should be doing better.

City have three tiers for young player recruitment. The first is development centres at towns across the north, such as Barnsley, Burnley and Leeds, which boast hundreds of kids and directly supplies teams based at City’s academy training ground.

The second tier is City Select, a programme that allows kids to train two or three times a week at City, with club coaches, but not be contracted to the club. They are allowed to play for grassroots teams but the programme effectively works as a reserve team. United took the head of the programme, Kevin Beswick, to head up their own effort two years ago after growing alarmed at the number of Manchester youngsters, including United fans, not just heading to City but also those routinely making the journey to Merseyside to train with Everton or Liverpool.

The final tier is made up of fun days at local schools, which offer a group of around 100 kids from any given age group two hours with a City coach and a certificate, before the next age group are given their two hours. Very few kids are picked up this way but those who are are sent to the development centres, with the potential to progress into the academy.

It is an approach that has led many City coaches to believe that traditional scouting — such as finding players in parks — is dead, although Yeboah Amankwah, a 19-year-old centre-back, was found in exactly this way at the age of 16.

City have so many players signed at each age level that they are regularly split up into separate teams, for example “Under-9 Aguero” or “Under-9 Silva”. New signings at that age have been able to use senior players’ boxes for games at the Etihad.

The players lucky enough to become members of the City academy receive around £1,000 worth of training equipment each, including a big coat, a rain jacket, a training top, two shirts, two pairs of tracksuit bottoms, astroturf trainers, boots, shin pads, a bag, and a water bottle. Every year the equipment is upgraded, and at the start of this season new club shirt sponsor Puma set up a stall offering players free pairs of boots.

It is demanding work, however, with every youngster given access to Hudl, a performance analyst website and app. Every game is recorded and analysed, and the players are also given ball mastery drills as homework. Thirty minutes before training sessions start the kids play a variety of other sports, including tennis and basketball. Everton have been known to do parkour

It is a competitive business and all the north west clubs are in constant battles to sign the best young talents, and like Beswick leaving City for United, and Fallows, Ward and Hunter moving to Liverpool, several youth coaches and scouts have also left Melwood for Manchester.

Rodolfo Borrell, now part of Guardiola’s senior coaching set-up, left Liverpool’s academy for City in 2013. The Spaniard is credited with developing several Reds youngsters, including Raheem Sterling.

Around that time Stephen Torpey and Darren Hughes, two Liverpudlians, also made the move to City, the former becoming head of coaching and the latter the Under-11s coach. City have also taken a kit man from Liverpool in recent years, yet despite the competition for the best young players, there is an acceptance that, at this level, these are normal people changing jobs for the same reasons anybody else would.

That is best summed up by Guardiola after physio Lee Nobes left City after 11 years to join Liverpool last season.
“He’s a brilliant guy, but there’s always going to be interesting jobs elsewhere and everyone’s free to make that choice,” he says in the book Pep’s City. “He’d been at City for a long time and wanted to try something new.”

It was Nobes that Guardiola rang after June’s Champions League final, concluding his congratulatory message by asking to speak to Klopp.
That was a show of respect but there’s also been hostility and animosity in this very modern rivalry.

City were outraged by the damage done to their team coach outside Anfield prior to the 2018 Champions League quarter-final at Anfield.

Anfield officials were stunned by the footage of City players singing a derogatory version of ‘Allez Allez Allez’ on their plane home after pipping Liverpool to the Premier League title back in May. City’s subsequent statement which included no apology only served to pour petrol on the flames.

Guardiola mentioning Liverpool’s “diving” and Klopp responding by referencing City’s “tactical fouls” cranked things up again.

These are two elite clubs with two incredible managers and an array of world-class talent competing for everything — on and off the field.
__________________
I make no apologies, this is me

Last edited by Deano; 08-11-19 at 07:04 PM. Reason: Added fucking spaces so people can read - FFS
Deano is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-19, 02:25 PM   #80
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,914
^ I’ll save that one for bedtime
Buzzo is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

  est1892 > Football > Liverpool FC

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:15 PM.


Our Current Balance versus Target. Please help us: (Donate)

Kindly Hosted By DigitalWales
Any posts remain the responsibility of the poster. Neither est1892, its Owners nor any company affiliated will be held responsible from any disputes arising from these posts. The views raised are not necessarily those held by the website or its owners.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.