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Old 17-10-20, 04:18 PM   #681
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Just make it like Rugby League where we hear them discussing it.
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Old 17-10-20, 04:41 PM   #682
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TBF Shortarms would’ve got a red for that in rugby. The fucking cunt.
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Old 17-10-20, 04:43 PM   #683
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If you could switch off VAR for the rest of the season, would you?

I know this might look reactionary, but I made my mind up on VAR in 2017/18 and I don’t think it’s gotten any better since. I know there’s examples of when it’s corrected decisions too, but overall, I don’t think it’s improved anything. Probably the opposite.
Absolutely.

Just get rid, it's not helping. Trial new ways thoroughly before considering any reintroduction.
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Old 17-10-20, 06:23 PM   #684
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Old 17-10-20, 07:12 PM   #685
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Should happen for all dubious decisions. Time to unleash some accountability on their asses.
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Old 17-10-20, 07:16 PM   #686
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It’s killing the game. Self immolation.
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Old 17-10-20, 07:34 PM   #687
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Remember Salah being taken out in the box last game? One of the clearest penalties possible and not given. The system just doesn't work in the PL for some reason.
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Old 17-10-20, 07:39 PM   #688
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Remember Salah being taken out in the box last game? One of the clearest penalties possible and not given. The system just doesn't work in the PL for some reason.
Only as good as the people behind it. And theyíre just from the same shit pool of officials we get on the pitch.

Although VAR does seem to be despised in most countries.
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Old 17-10-20, 08:48 PM   #689
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Should happen for all dubious decisions. Time to unleash some accountability on their asses.
Particularly as the rules are now so complicated, it would also be a public service in ensuring people understand the rules as well as making them accountable.
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Old 17-10-20, 08:58 PM   #690
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Just bin it off, stop trying to get it to work. It won't.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:02 PM   #691
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Old 17-10-20, 09:03 PM   #692
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It definitely could work. But it wonít. There is no common sense and more than enough time has passed now to enable it to be working correctly. I donít think they are looking at it with a realistic view on what VAR should be there to do. Assist, not over rule.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:07 PM   #693
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Just bin it off, stop trying to get it to work. It won't.
And then you'll be complaining that we should have had a decision for us anyway. We need to keep it and improve it.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:12 PM   #694
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And then you'll be complaining that we should have had a decision for us anyway. We need to keep it and improve it.
You are entitled to your opinion and so am I.

VAR are trying to make decisions that are always open to conjecture. That can never be anything but bullshit. Then to counter the shite they use offside to the smallest pixel when no one wants it. What's it achieved? Has it improved the game? You can't celebrate a goal anymore without waiting for a var check. That's it, games dead from that point.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:16 PM   #695
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You are entitled to your opinion and so am I.

VAR are trying to make decisions that are always open to conjecture. That can never be anything but bullshit. Then to counter the shite they use offside to the smallest pixel when no one wants it. What's it achieved? Has it improved the game? You can't celebrate a goal anymore without waiting for a var check. That's it, games dead from that point.
How can it be opened to conjecture if implemented correctly? At least now they are reviewing decisions when before there was none of that, other than the referee's judgement in the moment. There are issues, of that there is no doubt, but this is the way forward and they need to make it work at the end of the day.

I can't stop you moaning Bob. Without VAR you'll still be at it. That's what you do best.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:17 PM   #696
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Wasn't watching properly but looks like Man Utd donated another pen among everything. How is that clear and obvious? Barely touched him.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:27 PM   #697
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How can it be opened to conjecture if implemented correctly? At least now they are reviewing decisions when before there was none of that, other than the referee's judgement in the moment. There are issues, of that there is no doubt, but this is the way forward and they need to make it work at the end of the day.

I can't stop you moaning Bob. Without VAR you'll still be at it. That's what you do best.
I hate VAR. Every single facet of it i disagree with. I'll ignore the rest of your post since it's personal, and has nothing whatsoever to do with this thread or subject.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:31 PM   #698
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You are entitled to your opinion and so am I.



VAR are trying to make decisions that are always open to conjecture. That can never be anything but bullshit. Then to counter the shite they use offside to the smallest pixel when no one wants it. What's it achieved? Has it improved the game? You can't celebrate a goal anymore without waiting for a var check. That's it, games dead from that point.
I'm inclined to agree I have to admit.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:34 PM   #699
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I'm inclined to agree I have to admit.
Careful mate, the mighty bush will be after you soon, sorry I meant Fred.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:48 PM   #700
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Careful mate, the mighty bush will be after you soon, sorry I meant Fred.


Going back to the discussion, VAR has to work long term. I cannot see us going back. With the scrutiny, they will have to implement clear rules around specifics such as today and instead of the VAR official overruling the referee in certain situations, but have a clear protocol in place for situations like today. The technology has to be better as well for sure.

As for the release of joy after a goal and then having a nagging feeling the goal could be disallowed and ruining the enjoyment, I personally don't care as long as the decision is the correct one.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:53 PM   #701
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Going back to the discussion, VAR has to work long term. I cannot see us going back. With the scrutiny, they will have to implement clear rules around specifics such as today and instead of the VAR official overruling the referee in certain situations, but have a clear protocol in place for situations like today. The technology has to be better as well for sure.

As for the release of joy after a goal and then having a nagging feeling the goal could be disallowed and ruining the enjoyment, I personally don't care as long as the decision is the correct one.
The problem is, often with tackles in the box or outside, 10 different people could all have a different take on certain situations. Sometimes you'll never get a unified decision. That's football. Has someone punched it in the net? 100% accuracy, did it cross the line? 100% accuracy. Was it a dive? 60/40 55/45 at best. You don't even get agreement on here with fans of the same team.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:54 PM   #702
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Do we still have the 'clear and obvious' thing because if you have to look at something 4 times from different angles and in slow motion to determine if it was or wasn't a foul then it isn't clear and obvious. Because I don't know anymore But that's the least of my complaints about it.

The handball rule is a joke now, admittedly this is due to the rules but these rule changes wouldn't have come about without the ability of VAR to review them.

And the offside rule is even worse that certainly doesn't have any clear and obvious element to it. I mentioned last season that there is no way that you can get the accuracy from it to make the tight calls that they are making. The speed that a player is moving means that in most situations you probably can't determine the offsides to more than a couple of inches often worse (based on the distance players travel between frames) and that is assuming that you can get the lines perfect (which you can't). You can't make these types of decisions with the degree of uncertainty that these systems have.

I don't have a problem with the principle of VAR but it is not being used correctly or within it's limits.
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Old 17-10-20, 09:57 PM   #703
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The problem is, often with tackles in the box or outside, 10 different people could all have a different take on certain situations. Sometimes you'll never get a unified decision. That's football. Has someone punched it in the net? 100% accuracy, did it cross the line? 100% accuracy. Was it a dive? 60/40 55/45 at best. You don't even get agreement on here with fans of the same team.
With the proper technology and implementation, most decisions should be clear and unequivocal. I always feel that VAR is exposing the flaws in the rules of the game as well more than the issue being VAR itself. It's been a couple of years or less before it has been implemented fully here and I didn't expect it to be without flaws straight away. I would give it time as I would be surprised if we went back to anything like what it was before.
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Old 17-10-20, 10:01 PM   #704
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With the proper technology and implementation, most decisions should be clear and unequivocal. I always feel that VAR is exposing the flaws in the rules of the game as well more than the issue being VAR itself. It's been a couple of years or less before it has been implemented fully here and I didn't expect it to be without flaws straight away. I would give it time as I would be surprised if we went back to anything like what it was before.
Football is about emotion. Without it, which lets be honest without fans it is, its shit. Var takes away, in fact kills emotion. So it can't be anything but a bad thing for the game.
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Old 17-10-20, 10:03 PM   #705
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Football is about emotion. Without it, which lets be honest without fans it is, its shit. Var takes away, in fact kills emotion. So it can't be anything but a bad thing for the game.
Emotion is even more to the fore with VAR. Each game I feel like I'm riding Disney's biggest rollercoaster.
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Old 17-10-20, 10:07 PM   #706
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Football is about emotion. Without it, which lets be honest without fans it is, its shit. Var takes away, in fact kills emotion. So it can't be anything but a bad thing for the game.
I think even with the emotion if VAR reverses a clear error you don't have a problem with that. If the linesman somehow misses a player is 5 yards offside and that is reversed you don't have a complaint. If VAR shows that a player has thrown himself to the floor under no contact which fools the ref into awarding a pen you don't have a problem with that being overturned.

The problem is the millimetre offside calls and the subjective decision being changed for the smallest thing because the ref has seen it in slow motion from 5 different angles.
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Old 17-10-20, 11:52 PM   #707
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VAR is bollocks, just have two refs on the pitch and a lino on each quadrant.
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Old 18-10-20, 12:13 AM   #708
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I've been a big critic of VAR but there is a place for it. The issue is with how it is being used, all these attempts to bring so many decisions into it's remit are the problem.

I said really early on that it hadn't been tested properly and the implications and procedures thought through in sufficient detail. Originally it was just the big decisions, I didn't like the clear and obvious error stuff for the above reasons but where we were with that is more what VAR should be about. The fact that few decisions were overturned was a good thing as it was letting referees run the game. Yes there were some frustrating calls where things weren't overturned but that was because VAR wasn't re-refereeing the game.

The trying to re-referee the game is where the problem lies IMO they have brought in other incidents and squeezed margins of error to breaking point. The technology is not capable of accurately determining whether someone is on or offside to the degree of accuracy that they are trying to determine things and I don't think they understand this limitation.

The Pickford VVD incident is a classic illustration of what is wrong with the system, they spent so long trying to determine whether VVD was a mm offside that they forgot or lost sight of the fact that Pickford could have broken his leg, it's farcical and shows the system isn't fit for purpose and/or the people running it are incompetent.
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Old 18-10-20, 01:07 AM   #709
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I think even with the emotion if VAR reverses a clear error you don't have a problem with that. If the linesman somehow misses a player is 5 yards offside and that is reversed you don't have a complaint. If VAR shows that a player has thrown himself to the floor under no contact which fools the ref into awarding a pen you don't have a problem with that being overturned.

The problem is the millimetre offside calls and the subjective decision being changed for the smallest thing because the ref has seen it in slow motion from 5 different angles.

agree 100%

I donít like the fact that thereís now a more gradual release of tension after a goal, instead of an explosion of emotion, but I think that if thatís the cost of getting all the big calls right, then so be it.

I donít think anyone would feel hard done by if a goal conceded turned out to be offside by the length of a foreskin, they need to cool down on them ones, use common sense and only call the ones that are clearly offside, as opposed to level.

I feel like for penalties, red cards, dives etc, Iíd like if the ref went to the pitch side monitor and made the call himself for all incidents. Var should tell him in his ear that he may need to review it, and the ref should take it from there. I think if heís correcting himself instead of someone overruling him, thereís less hesitance to change your mind on second viewing, talking about clear and obvious nonsense... Also, the buck stops with the ref then...

In all aspects of life Iím a big advocate for using technology to make things easier/better. I think they need to keep it, improve it, make the refs job as easy as possible for him.... and then hold him accountable for any errors- the ref should have to do a post match interview, or at least have his match report public, for all to see.
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Old 18-10-20, 07:44 AM   #710
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To be honest I am somewhat conflicted about the use of the pitch side monitor, I like it because it allows the referee who has been making decisions all game to make that decision and therefore from that point of view should give you more consistency.

But on the other hand if the decision is clear the VAR official should be able to make the call, if the VAR official calls the ref over to the monitor it seemingly means that he can't make the call which presumably means it isn't clear and obvious. As I say I am not sure what has happened to the clear and obvious part of the VAR ruling if it is still in force or what. From the evidence of watching it used it seems not. The use of pitch side monitors seem to be an opportunity for the referee to have a 2nd chance at refereeing the game rather than reviewing the decision within some set of VAR rules as was originally supposed to be the case. If that is the way they want to go they need to be sure that everyone is clear with that. The bigger problem however is that the decision to review is upto the VAR official so you are substituting the human error on the field for human error in a VAR box somewhere.
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Old 18-10-20, 09:30 AM   #711
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agree 100%

I donít like the fact that thereís now a more gradual release of tension after a goal, instead of an explosion of emotion, but I think that if thatís the cost of getting all the big calls right, then so be it.

I donít think anyone would feel hard done by if a goal conceded turned out to be offside by the length of a foreskin, they need to cool down on them ones, use common sense and only call the ones that are clearly offside, as opposed to level.

I feel like for penalties, red cards, dives etc, Iíd like if the ref went to the pitch side monitor and made the call himself for all incidents. Var should tell him in his ear that he may need to review it, and the ref should take it from there. I think if heís correcting himself instead of someone overruling him, thereís less hesitance to change your mind on second viewing, talking about clear and obvious nonsense... Also, the buck stops with the ref then...

In all aspects of life Iím a big advocate for using technology to make things easier/better. I think they need to keep it, improve it, make the refs job as easy as possible for him.... and then hold him accountable for any errors- the ref should have to do a post match interview, or at least have his match report public, for all to see.
That goal was the first I've cheered at the top of my voice for ages, along with a fuck you Everton. Two minutes later it's chalked off and there's no anger, just deflation
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Old 18-10-20, 09:34 AM   #712
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Old 18-10-20, 09:34 AM   #713
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That goal was the first I've cheered at the top of my voice for ages, along with a fuck you Everton. Two minutes later it's chalked off and there's no anger, just deflation
I was similar, deflated and confused, the anger came later when I saw the images with the lines on
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Old 18-10-20, 10:33 AM   #714
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It's not just the fact that it was level/onside. We were clearly the better side, their keeper should have been off, should have been a pen too (VVD still looks onside to me), we had two horror tackles on our players and the VAR bloke still had the nerve to chalk off a well deserved winner in the last minute.

I've said to before on here but a combination of giving the attacker the benefit of doubt and VAR would be that if the lines overlap or touch, then it is called onside. It gives scope for a small percentage of error and defenders should not trying to catch opponents offside anyway with such small margins so it works well all round imo.
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Old 18-10-20, 10:57 AM   #715
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It's not just the fact that it was level/onside. We were clearly the better side, their keeper should have been off, should have been a pen too (VVD still looks onside to me), we had two horror tackles on our players and the VAR bloke still had the nerve to chalk off a well deserved winner in the last minute.

I've said to before on here but a combination of giving the attacker the benefit of doubt and VAR would be that if the lines overlap or touch, then it is called onside. It gives scope for a small percentage of error and defenders should not trying to catch opponents offside anyway with such small margins so it works well all round imo.
To be fair the official(s) shouldn't be considering whether tight decisions have gone for or against us (or any side) when evaluating the next one, each decision should be judged on it's own merits.

I don't believe that the official was biased, I think that the issue is a systematic one, the system isn't fit for purpose and I don't believe that the people using it have been trained well enough or understand it's limitations. He may have (accidentally) got the positions of the lines slightly wrong but it seems that if there is a degree of human error in the making of these decisions then that is a limitation of the system that hasn't properly been accounted for in it's development or implementation.
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Old 18-10-20, 11:07 AM   #716
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Old 18-10-20, 11:26 AM   #717
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That goal was the first I've cheered at the top of my voice for ages, along with a fuck you Everton. Two minutes later it's chalked off and there's no anger, just deflation
I went to bed really pissed off. I think my initial cheer alerted one of the nurses to come check on my through the door...

Fucking VAR is only funny when a rival has something go against them but I'd rather that wasn't a form of enjoyment.
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Old 18-10-20, 11:28 AM   #718
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Old 18-10-20, 11:51 AM   #719
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We are all looking at a line to see who's offside down to the last pixel.

Not one picture ever shows the pass leaving the boot. I don't even think its possible to zoom in enough to see if there is a pixel between boot and ball. So if you are two pixels out on the ball leaving, then when you get to the attacking player it's never going to be right. It's too blocky and unclear when you zoom in. If they see clear distance between boot and ball then that should be applied to the line they draw up. Fucking joke. Still fuming.
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Old 18-10-20, 12:01 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by BobTheCharmer View Post
We are all looking at a line to see who's offside down to the last pixel.

Not one picture ever shows the pass leaving the boot. I don't even think its possible to zoom in enough to see if there is a pixel between boot and ball. So if you are two pixels out on the ball leaving, then when you get to the attacking player it's never going to be right. It's too blocky and unclear when you zoom in. If they see clear distance between boot and ball then that should be applied to the line they draw up. Fucking joke. Still fuming.
I suspect that they don't show the ball leaving the foot because it would be 'confusing' for us plebs. I could be wrong but I imagine that the ball (and the foot) will be a blur because it is moving so fast. I don't imagine in most cases the exact moment that the ball left the foot can't be determined with anywhere near the level of accuracy that they are showing the difference between the line, this for me is the biggest source of error in the whole system.
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