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Old 14-06-22, 02:29 PM   #3321
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Originally Posted by Frog83 View Post
And of all those the only one we don't have decent cover for is Fab. Really need to sort that this summer!

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Henderson can cover Fab to a decent level.


The one missing natural cover would be Salah.


Ali - Kelleher

Trent - Gomez or Ramsey if we get him

Robbo - Tsimikas

VVD - Matip or Konate or Gomez

Fab - Henderson

Thiago - Keita

Mo - Whichever left winger that did not start.



Got me thinking about the second string if the transfers we think ( and hope in the case of a starting CM coming in) will come up do.

We could start the season with a second string that resembles this.


------------------------------Kelleher----------------------------
Ramsey------------Gomez-------------Matip or Konate-------Tsimikas
----------------------------Henderson-----------------------------------
----------------Elliot----------------------Keita--------------------------
Minamino------------------Firmino---------------------------Jota


The likes of Milner, Carvalho, Jones etc could be switched in and out of the above.

Not bad at all and handy for saving the legs of the first choice XI by starting the above in the domestic cups and dead rubber CL games

That cover for Salah bit does stand out a lot for me though.
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Old 14-06-22, 02:40 PM   #3322
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Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
Henderson can cover Fab to a decent level.


The one missing natural cover would be Salah.


Ali - Kelleher

Trent - Gomez or Ramsey if we get him

Robbo - Tsimikas

VVD - Matip or Konate or Gomez

Fab - Henderson

Thiago - Keita

Mo - Whichever left winger that did not start.



Got me thinking about the second string if the transfers we think ( and hope in the case of a starting CM coming in) will come up do.

We could start the season with a second string that resembles this.


------------------------------Kelleher----------------------------
Ramsey------------Gomez-------------Matip or Konate-------Tsimikas
----------------------------Henderson-----------------------------------
----------------Elliot----------------------Keita--------------------------
Minamino------------------Firmino---------------------------Jota


The likes of Milner, Carvalho, Jones etc could be switched in and out of the above.

Not bad at all and handy for saving the legs of the first choice XI by starting the above in the domestic cups and dead rubber CL games

That cover for Salah bit does stand out a lot for me though.
Henderson doesn't tackle though, I think we need to stop pretending that he can provide a viable option to Fab. Look how much we were all shitting it for the CL final when Fab got the hamstring injury. Hendo is a massive step down as a number 6.
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Old 14-06-22, 02:46 PM   #3323
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Henderson doesn't tackle though, I think we need to stop pretending that he can provide a viable option to Fab. Look how much we were all shitting it for the CL final when Fab got the hamstring injury. Hendo is a massive step down as a number 6.

For domestic cup games and dead rubber games he would be a viable stand in.

I'm not calling him a like for like for Fab, just that he could play as a number 6 in our second string when we want to play the second string in comps.


Personally we need two CMs. One being of starter quality and a right sided number eight and the other maybe a younger player who can cover a few roles but that is good at CDM.

If I was raiding Serie A then maybe Barella and Tonali
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Old 14-06-22, 05:30 PM   #3324
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Matip is world class too.

I think partbif the problem is we have Keita or Henderson... and City have De Bruyne.

I think that is where the only obvious "gap" in quality between us, and somewhere most if us agree we need to improve if we want to finish above City. I think Keita is a decent player, but I also think we need better for our first 11.
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Old 14-06-22, 06:09 PM   #3325
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Id say we dont have a useful backup for Trent (and Fab...).

If he got injured long term, that is half of our assists gone, and our major supply line.

There is no way Gomez is anywhere close to a like for like replacement on a tactical level.

I dont think Hendo tackles or reads the game as well as Fab. Fab has a knack for being in the right place to cut out through balls. I just dont think Hendo has the same instinct.I also think he is slowing up a bit. I thinkif he is in the tram he should be further forward as he can cross and thread through balls, works and presses at his best
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Old 14-06-22, 06:40 PM   #3326
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Henderson doesn't tackle though, I think we need to stop pretending that he can provide a viable option to Fab. Look how much we were all shitting it for the CL final when Fab got the hamstring injury. Hendo is a massive step down as a number 6.
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Id say we dont have a useful backup for Trent (and Fab...).

If he got injured long term, that is half of our assists gone, and our major supply line.

There is no way Gomez is anywhere close to a like for like replacement on a tactical level.

I dont think Hendo tackles or reads the game as well as Fab. Fab has a knack for being in the right place to cut out through balls. I just dont think Hendo has the same instinct.I also think he is slowing up a bit. I thinkif he is in the tram he should be further forward as he can cross and thread through balls, works and presses at his best
he's so easily bypassed, it's fairly frustrating watching him over commit and opposition just side step him.
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Old 15-06-22, 07:40 AM   #3327
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Matip is world class too.

I think partbif the problem is we have Keita or Henderson... and City have De Bruyne.

I think that is where the only obvious "gap" in quality between us, and somewhere most if us agree we need to improve if we want to finish above City. I think Keita is a decent player, but I also think we need better for our first 11.

We could cherry picks areas in their team where they get a better reurn than us and just as easily pick areas in our team that give better returns.

De Bruyne gets more goals and assists than our midfielders.

Our two main full backs get more assists than their three main full backs combined.

We play with different systems but we score close to the same number of goals as them and we concede as few as them.

The gap between the two teams is razor thin and whilst it would be great to have a midfielder that gets as many goals and assists as De Bruyne, could we fit him into the team without taking goals from other parts of the team?

City seem to be set up to spread the goals throughout the team rather than rely on a core group of frontmen getting the bulk of the goals.

We are set up so our attacking players get the bulk of the goals.

City had eight players score seven or more goals in the league with their top scorer being KDB on 15 goals.

We had three players score 7 or more in the league. All three scoring 15 or more times.

Think Nunez coming in is our attempt at adding more goals but from the area we always focus on for our goals, the players in attack. Nunez for me is our attempt to turn three main goal getters into four main goal getters up front (maybe even five if Diaz takes off in front of goal.)


City on the other hand are trying to add a prolific frontman used to getting the bulk of the goals to a team used to spreading the goals around. Maybe it will work and they keep the goals they usually get and add Haaland's tally on top, but I suspect they will see some of their midfield goals be lost as they look to focus on getting more goals from up front, whereas we will be looking to add more goals in the area we are used to focusing on to be our goal threat.

That all been said I would still be trying to add more mobility and pace to us in the middle so that we can continue to control games and not see a drop off in intensity through age. I would look to bring in players that whilst they bring graft they also bring some craft. They may not be big goal getters but they can spot runs centrally up front and pick the passes to find the front men. Barella would be a shout for such a player thoygh I have a feeling we will see Thiago's assist numbers or his secondary assist numbers rise a little more this season now that he has a central threat to look for.
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Old 15-06-22, 08:03 AM   #3328
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I'd like to see Jones given more creative freedom, I reckon he's got a few bangers in him per season.
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Old 15-06-22, 08:52 AM   #3329
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I'd like to see Jones given more creative freedom, I reckon he's got a few bangers in him per season.

I think he is being groomed to be a cog in a pressing midfield along with being trained to be good at being pressed. Might be a less eye catching role but an important one for us.
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Old 15-06-22, 09:03 AM   #3330
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Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
We could cherry picks areas in their team where they get a better reurn than us and just as easily pick areas in our team that give better returns.

De Bruyne gets more goals and assists than our midfielders.

Our two main full backs get more assists than their three main full backs combined.

We play with different systems but we score close to the same number of goals as them and we concede as few as them.

The gap between the two teams is razor thin and whilst it would be great to have a midfielder that gets as many goals and assists as De Bruyne, could we fit him into the team without taking goals from other parts of the team?

City seem to be set up to spread the goals throughout the team rather than rely on a core group of frontmen getting the bulk of the goals.

We are set up so our attacking players get the bulk of the goals.

City had eight players score seven or more goals in the league with their top scorer being KDB on 15 goals.

We had three players score 7 or more in the league. All three scoring 15 or more times.

Think Nunez coming in is our attempt at adding more goals but from the area we always focus on for our goals, the players in attack. Nunez for me is our attempt to turn three main goal getters into four main goal getters up front (maybe even five if Diaz takes off in front of goal.)


City on the other hand are trying to add a prolific frontman used to getting the bulk of the goals to a team used to spreading the goals around. Maybe it will work and they keep the goals they usually get and add Haaland's tally on top, but I suspect they will see some of their midfield goals be lost as they look to focus on getting more goals from up front, whereas we will be looking to add more goals in the area we are used to focusing on to be our goal threat.

That all been said I would still be trying to add more mobility and pace to us in the middle so that we can continue to control games and not see a drop off in intensity through age. I would look to bring in players that whilst they bring graft they also bring some craft. They may not be big goal getters but they can spot runs centrally up front and pick the passes to find the front men. Barella would be a shout for such a player thoygh I have a feeling we will see Thiago's assist numbers or his secondary assist numbers rise a little more this season now that he has a central threat to look for.
There is nothing wrong with any aspect of our team. 2 defeats in a season is absolutely incredible, thats a squad effort. But, we are comparing with the most expensively salaried and built team in history.

We could have exactly the same season as the one just gone and win the League by 20 points. I see Nunez as part of a new plan of attack. Something different. I cant wait to see how he fits in.
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Old 15-06-22, 09:48 AM   #3331
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There is nothing wrong with any aspect of our team. 2 defeats in a season is absolutely incredible, thats a squad effort. But, we are comparing with the most expensively salaried and built team in history.

We could have exactly the same season as the one just gone and win the League by 20 points. I see Nunez as part of a new plan of attack. Something different. I cant wait to see how he fits in.

It's a coin toss between us and city. They are better in some areas, we are better in some areas but for the most part it almost balances it out evenly between them and us as teams.

If one slips up, the other walks the league, if neither slip up then it is back to being a coin toss.

This coming season is really interesting though. Both they and us seem to be gambling on a big fast prolific front man being what is needed to shake the other off and create more daylight betwen us.

Other teams seem to be moving towards what we and City have done before in having or main goal threats not come from a central attacker whereas us and City seem to be moving towards having a central foacl point up front.

Is like the further evolution of two apex predators who are similar but evolving on different continents so have different traits.

Think the Tyrannosaurus Rex in North America and the Carcharodontosaurus in Africa and the Giganotosaurus in South America. All similar looking and sized, but with differences (like teeth type etc) that show they hunted/fed in different manners.

Or in modern times is like comparing a Nile Crocodile with a Salt Water crocodile. The look similar, are close in size and do a lot of things in a similar manner but have lots of differences in how they hunt, stalk, kill etc.
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Old 15-06-22, 09:56 AM   #3332
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Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
It's a coin toss between us and city. They are better in some areas, we are better in some areas but for the most part it almost balances it out evenly between them and us as teams.

If one slips up, the other walks the league, if neither slip up then it is back to being a coin toss.

This coming season is really interesting though. Both they and us seem to be gambling on a big fast prolific front man being what is needed to shake the other off and create more daylight betwen us.

Other teams seem to be moving towards what we and City have done before in having or main goal threats not come from a central attacker whereas us and City seem to be moving towards having a central foacl point up front.

Is like the further evolution of two apex predators who are similar but evolving on different continents so have different traits.

Think the Tyrannosaurus Rex in North America and the Carcharodontosaurus in Africa and the Giganotosaurus in South America. All similar looking and sized, but with differences (like teeth type etc) that show they hunted/fed in different manners.

Or in modern times is like comparing a Nile Crocodile with a Salt Water crocodile. The look similar, are close in size and do a lot of things in a similar manner but have lots of differences in how they hunt, stalk, kill etc.


Thats a great post
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Old 15-06-22, 09:58 AM   #3333
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There is nothing wrong with any aspect of our team. 2 defeats in a season is absolutely incredible, thats a squad effort. But, we are comparing with the most expensively salaried and built team in history.

We could have exactly the same season as the one just gone and win the League by 20 points. I see Nunez as part of a new plan of attack. Something different. I cant wait to see how he fits in.
Same for City with Haaland, which is why it is hard not to make comparisons.

It's going to be an interesting season!
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Old 15-06-22, 10:51 AM   #3334
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I think we got a little bit lucky with injuries too, last season. It was only the ANC that saw us lose players for longer periods and we got through that ok as we had strengthen our forward line.

Just need a rightback to cover... and that midfielder and I think we can "do" City with a nominal amout of injuries factored in.
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Old 15-06-22, 11:52 AM   #3335
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I think we got a little bit lucky with injuries too, last season. It was only the ANC that saw us lose players for longer periods and we got through that ok as we had strengthen our forward line.

Just need a rightback to cover... and that midfielder and I think we can "do" City with a nominal amout of injuries factored in.
You've forgotten about the impact Covid had on our squad - the 11 point gap Man City made over us during the festive period was largely due to our squad all having Covid at some point whereas Man City were pretty much unnafected
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Old 15-06-22, 11:57 AM   #3336
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You've forgotten about the impact Covid had on our squad - the 11 point gap Man City made over us during the festive period was largely due to our squad all having Covid at some point whereas Man City were pretty much unnafected


Look at our starting XI away at spurs for evidence.

A midfield of Milner, Morton, Keita - 2 points dropped that could have won us the League with a full strength starting eleven.
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Old 15-06-22, 12:08 PM   #3337
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Look at our starting XI away at spurs for evidence.

A midfield of Milner, Morton, Keita - 2 points dropped that could have won us the League with a full strength starting eleven.
Yep, we looked leggy in both the defeat to Leicester and the draw with Chelsea. Still had players missing for these games but also the players coming back from Covid will surely not have been 100%.
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Old 15-06-22, 12:44 PM   #3338
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Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
It's a coin toss between us and city. They are better in some areas, we are better in some areas but for the most part it almost balances it out evenly between them and us as teams.

If one slips up, the other walks the league, if neither slip up then it is back to being a coin toss.

This coming season is really interesting though. Both they and us seem to be gambling on a big fast prolific front man being what is needed to shake the other off and create more daylight betwen us.

Other teams seem to be moving towards what we and City have done before in having or main goal threats not come from a central attacker whereas us and City seem to be moving towards having a central foacl point up front.

Is like the further evolution of two apex predators who are similar but evolving on different continents so have different traits.

Think the Tyrannosaurus Rex in North America and the Carcharodontosaurus in Africa and the Giganotosaurus in South America. All similar looking and sized, but with differences (like teeth type etc) that show they hunted/fed in different manners.

Or in modern times is like comparing a Nile Crocodile with a Salt Water crocodile. The look similar, are close in size and do a lot of things in a similar manner but have lots of differences in how they hunt, stalk, kill etc.
Fucking hell, Jaco...ya had me looking up the Giganotosaurus & it turns out that he's not that much bigger than T-Rex!...so all in the name, GigaNOTosaurus!

Anyway, I like the analogy!
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Old 15-06-22, 01:40 PM   #3339
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Fucking hell, Jaco...ya had me looking up the Giganotosaurus & it turns out that he's not that much bigger than T-Rex!...so all in the name, GigaNOTosaurus!

Anyway, I like the analogy!

Think you missed this in my post then


Quote:
All similar looking and sized

Would have saved you the googling time.
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Old 15-06-22, 02:01 PM   #3340
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City are this, we are that. Some good comparison's between us and city, guys.
The big difference is how easily other teams can effectively nullify either attack...
City spread the goals around and dont rely just on the craft of their front men and probably score more than use from outside the box.
We mostly need to hit teams fast before they can get 10 men behind the ball. We do sometimes open up space with some movement of the strikers/wingers and can then slot in a sexy through ball.
Our midfielder's are mostly circulating the ball on the outside of other teams defensive area while looking for a chance to play the ball through. City seem better at getting a midfielder to carry the ball into the space, and with de bruyne and mahrez they have two players who are very capable of score from outside the box, in comparison we are very poor.
Yes we did great with so few defeats but it's the draws that have let us down.
We need the better variety to our play in the final third, more penetration from our midfield, shots from outside the box.
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Old 15-06-22, 02:29 PM   #3341
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City are this, we are that. Some good comparison's between us and city, guys.
The big difference is how easily other teams can effectively nullify either attack...
City spread the goals around and dont rely just on the craft of their front men and probably score more than use from outside the box.
We mostly need to hit teams fast before they can get 10 men behind the ball. We do sometimes open up space with some movement of the strikers/wingers and can then slot in a sexy through ball.
Our midfielder's are mostly circulating the ball on the outside of other teams defensive area while looking for a chance to play the ball through. City seem better at getting a midfielder to carry the ball into the space, and with de bruyne and mahrez they have two players who are very capable of score from outside the box, in comparison we are very poor.
Yes we did great with so few defeats but it's the draws that have let us down.
We need the better variety to our play in the final third, more penetration from our midfield, shots from outside the box.

Both us and City scored over 90 goals in the league last season. I agree draws cost us, but I am sure City could point to a few of their draws or losses and say something similar. Both their draws with us in the league for example they could point to as games that they cost themselves points in.

We are moving into the realms of needing close to perfection to improve either team tbh.

But back to your point about the draws, I would argue that for many of our draws last season our attack and scoring goals was not the problem, but rather our inability at the other end during that small number of games to shut the other team out.

Look at our draws from last season and look at how many of them in which we took a 1 or 2 nil lead. The problem lay in the defending a lead and not in the goal scoring in those games which is kind of mad to say about a team that lead in 26 goals in the league last season.
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Old 15-06-22, 03:10 PM   #3342
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Both us and City scored over 90 goals in the league last season. I agree draws cost us, but I am sure City could point to a few of their draws or losses and say something similar. Both their draws with us in the league for example they could point to as games that they cost themselves points in.

We are moving into the realms of needing close to perfection to improve either team tbh.

But back to your point about the draws, I would argue that for many of our draws last season our attack and scoring goals was not the problem, but rather our inability at the other end during that small number of games to shut the other team out.

Look at our draws from last season and look at how many of them in which we took a 1 or 2 nil lead. The problem lay in the defending a lead and not in the goal scoring in those games which is kind of mad to say about a team that lead in 26 goals in the league last season.
We were often suckered punched with a counter attack.
Our high line and lack of full backs in our own half, etc, but that's how we play.
Our midfield are far too easy to play through.
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Old 15-06-22, 03:41 PM   #3343
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We were often suckered punched with a counter attack.
Our high line and lack of full backs in our own half, etc, but that's how we play.
Our midfield are far too easy to play through.

And yet we scored 94 goals, conceded 26 goals and won 28 out of 38 games. Losing only 2 games along the way.

Just shows how stupidly high the bar has been set by the financial doping that we are even having a discussion saying we need to improve upon what we did.

Given how well we did do, we really did not get sucker punched a lot. It just feels that way. We were brilliant last season.
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Old 15-06-22, 03:56 PM   #3344
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Both us and City scored over 90 goals in the league last season. I agree draws cost us, but I am sure City could point to a few of their draws or losses and say something similar. Both their draws with us in the league for example they could point to as games that they cost themselves points in.

We are moving into the realms of needing close to perfection to improve either team tbh.

But back to your point about the draws, I would argue that for many of our draws last season our attack and scoring goals was not the problem, but rather our inability at the other end during that small number of games to shut the other team out.

Look at our draws from last season and look at how many of them in which we took a 1 or 2 nil lead. The problem lay in the defending a lead and not in the goal scoring in those games which is kind of mad to say about a team that lead in 26 goals in the league last season.
That home game vs Brighton comes to mind!...that's the one that haunts [email protected]#!!! 2-0 up then we took our foot off the pedal...those 2 points & we were were lucky in the end to come away with a draw.
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Old 15-06-22, 03:58 PM   #3345
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That home game vs Brighton comes to mind!...that's the one that haunts [email protected]#!!! 2-0 up then we took our foot off the pedal...those 2 points & we were were lucky in the end to come away with a draw.
The game against Chelsea is another we were two up in and could easily have lost.

Then again the flip side of that is that there were games that we drew or won in which we really rode out luck.

We tend to only recall the ones in which we think we were robbed.
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Old 15-06-22, 04:02 PM   #3346
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The game against Chelsea is another we were two up in and could easily have lost.

Then again the flip side of that is that there were games that we drew or won in which we really rode out luck.

We tend to only recall the ones in which we think we were robbed.
Yes, the more obvious ones are those that stick in the caw!
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Old 15-06-22, 04:21 PM   #3347
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Yes games where we throw away a lead like that are frustrating, but that's part of the game.

The one that I am still struggling to get over is the lack of the award of a penalty to Everton against City, it was admitted by the footballing authorities that they got that decision wrong and Everton received an apology. That incident was late in the game and had Everton scored they wouldn't have had long to hold on for a point. That decision gifted City 2 points and they won the league by 1.
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Old 15-06-22, 04:35 PM   #3348
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I think he is being groomed to be a cog in a pressing midfield along with being trained to be good at being pressed. Might be a less eye catching role but an important one for us.
AKA Gini ?
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Old 15-06-22, 05:19 PM   #3349
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Yes games where we throw away a lead like that are frustrating, but that's part of the game.

The one that I am still struggling to get over is the lack of the award of a penalty to Everton against City, it was admitted by the footballing authorities that they got that decision wrong and Everton received an apology. That incident was late in the game and had Everton scored they wouldn't have had long to hold on for a point. That decision gifted City 2 points and they won the league by 1.

that was one of the most frustrating var calls. Thereís always gonna be a few decisions that go for/against any team, but I think that was the most clear cut one that var has gotten wrong. No one could look at that, and say itís not a handball. In cases like this, the var ref shouldnít be getting another game so fast. What a joke.
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Old 15-06-22, 09:55 PM   #3350
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AKA Gini ?

Aye something along those lines though Jones is, imo of course, being trained to become that sort of player from the off whereas Gini was a fully established and well experienced player who already had a great understanding of the game, albeit from playing in other positions, when he worked on changing his game.

If Jones goes on to be as good as player as Wijnaldum was at his best for us, then he will have a very good career.

Gini might have lost a yard physically and mentally imo towards the end of his time with us, but before that he was excellent in a role that whilst not eye catching was essential to our play.

On the subject of Gini. He won some "Flop Of The Year" title in France after being voted the worst transfer there last season. His form fell off of a cliff after leaving us.
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Old 16-06-22, 01:08 AM   #3351
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Aye something along those lines though Jones is, imo of course, being trained to become that sort of player from the off whereas Gini was a fully established and well experienced player who already had a great understanding of the game, albeit from playing in other positions, when he worked on changing his game.

If Jones goes on to be as good as player as Wijnaldum was at his best for us, then he will have a very good career.

Gini might have lost a yard physically and mentally imo towards the end of his time with us, but before that he was excellent in a role that whilst not eye catching was essential to our play.

On the subject of Gini. He won some "Flop Of The Year" title in France after being voted the worst transfer there last season. His form fell off of a cliff after leaving us.
Yeah letís hope Jones doesn't follow Gini that way
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Old 16-06-22, 09:34 AM   #3352
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Yeah letís hope Jones doesn't follow Gini that way


Let's instead hope he goes on to be as good or close to as good as prime Gini.
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Old 16-06-22, 08:07 PM   #3353
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Let's instead hope he goes on to be as good or close to as good as prime Gini.
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Old 17-06-22, 02:55 AM   #3354
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And yet we scored 94 goals, conceded 26 goals and won 28 out of 38 games. Losing only 2 games along the way.

Just shows how stupidly high the bar has been set by the financial doping that we are even having a discussion saying we need to improve upon what we did.

Given how well we did do, we really did not get sucker punched a lot. It just feels that way. We were brilliant last season.
Yes, this.

We are nit picking for sure - a bit flat in a few games where we were knocked about by COVID, a few goals conceded in some games after we took the lead (which I think were more about the bounce of the ball in set pieces, a couple of concentration drops, plus just some good play from excellent opposition players)

But overall during the season, what a set of performances - this is one of the all time great English club teams, built fairly and squarely on our own efforts and finances, but it's at risk of being seen by the wider football community as one of the 'nearly' teams due to the unprecedented level of City's financial doping.

Regardless, I'm just trying to enjoy the journey of how good this team is rather than focusing on how many trophies we get at the end. But that's definitely challenging at times
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Old 17-06-22, 10:15 AM   #3355
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Yes, this.

We are nit picking for sure - a bit flat in a few games where we were knocked about by COVID, a few goals conceded in some games after we took the lead (which I think were more about the bounce of the ball in set pieces, a couple of concentration drops, plus just some good play from excellent opposition players)

But overall during the season, what a set of performances - this is one of the all time great English club teams, built fairly and squarely on our own efforts and finances, but it's at risk of being seen by the wider football community as one of the 'nearly' teams due to the unprecedented level of City's financial doping.

Regardless, I'm just trying to enjoy the journey of how good this team is rather than focusing on how many trophies we get at the end. But that's definitely challenging at times
Donít forget shite refereeing!
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Old 17-06-22, 12:23 PM   #3356
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Donít forget shite refereeing!
Oh yes good point!
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