Boxing

[Jaco_Pastorious]

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Beterbiev v Smith last night.


Beterbiev just rolled over him like a truck.


Knocked Smith down four times and whilst Smith was on his feeth when the ref stopped it in the second round he was getting pummeled and had no idea where he was.

Smith had to be taken to hospital afterwards so hopefully it is precautionary and not the sign of something serious.

Beterbiev said after the fight that he wants Bivol next. Said he wants the top guys rather than having to fight guys who do not have belts or who are not seen as a threat.


Bob Arum came on and said that Beterbiev will face Yarde next so I bet that went down well with Beterbiev, No dosprespect to Yarde as he is a dcent fighter but would not be the higher level threat Beterbiev is looking for.

Beterbiev looked beastly though. Smith came to fight and went at Beterbiev and to be fair did not do much wrong, but he was simply overwhelmed tactically, technically and physically.

18 stoppages in a row for Beterbiev out of 18 fights and 7 of his 18 fights have either been for or defending a world title.

Only knock I have against Beterbiev is that he took far too long to leave the unpaid ranks (where he was excellent) and if he is this good at 37 years of age, how good would he have been had he moved into the pro ranks three or four years sooner. For my money he should have gone pro right after the 2010 Euro championships.

[Zapater]

Would be a good fight. I've never rated Joe Smith even though his record is quite good and it showed the difference between an okay fighter and a really good one. Smith would've walked out there as embarrassed as he was hurt.

Beterbiev has always looked good. Should have a couple more years left in him too.

Also, great KO on the undercard.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by Zapater

Would be a good fight. I've never rated Joe Smith even though his record is quite good and it showed the difference between an okay fighter and a really good one. Smith would've walked out there as embarrassed as he was hurt.

Beterbiev has always looked good. Should have a couple more years left in him too.

Also, great KO on the undercard.

Not sure I agree with that. Actually I am sure and I don't agree.

The only thing Smith could have done differently is try to have stood off more and boxed. The fight would have lasted a bit longer that way but the outcome would have been the same as Beterbiev is a very good technical and tactical boxer and he eventually would have gotten himself into a position where his power would have put Smith down.

Smith gambled on trying to be aggressive early on and maybe getting lucky, with that gamble not paying off, but against Beterbiev he had to try something otherwise he would have been on the receiving end of a four or five round beatdown before being stopped anyway.

Smith is a decent fighter but, as you said, Beterbiev is a very good one. Smith went out on his shield and discovered along the way that the gulf in class between him and Beterbiev is vast.

Yeah the Ramirez knock out was a sweet shot. He, like Beterbiev, is another guy who was an amazing amatuer.

Two good back to back wins for Ramirez now too. Forst against against a decent Europen level pro in Donovan and last night over a solid next level up fighter in Nova.

Do not think he will hit the same heights in the pro game as he did in the unpaid ranks but he should be more than good enough to pick up a few belts and be involved in the mix.

[Zapater]

Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious

Not sure I agree with that. Actually I am sure and I don't agree.

The only thing Smith could have done differently is try to have stood off more and boxed. The fight would have lasted a bit longer that way but the outcome would have been the same as Beterbiev is a very good technical and tactical boxer and he eventually would have gotten himself into a position where his power would have put Smith down.

Smith gambled on trying to be aggressive early on and maybe getting lucky, with that gamble not paying off, but against Beterbiev he had to try something otherwise he would have been on the receiving end of a four or five round beatdown before being stopped anyway.

Smith is a decent fighter but, as you said, Beterbiev is a very good one. Smith went out on his shield and discovered along the way that the gulf in class between him and Beterbiev is vast.

Yeah the Ramirez knock out was a sweet shot. He, like Beterbiev, is another guy who was an amazing amatuer.

Two good back to back wins for Ramirez now too. Forst against against a decent Europen level pro in Donovan and last night over a solid next level up fighter in Nova.

Do not think he will hit the same heights in the pro game as he did in the unpaid ranks but he should be more than good enough to pick up a few belts and be involved in the mix.

I genuinely think that Smith is naive enough to believe he is the best (or among them) in the division and had a genuine shot. He was in his hometown with a partisan crowd expecting something. The realisation that you're nowhere close must be a hard one for him and everyone else in that arena to swallow.

[spud_gun]

Now imagine Beterbiev in with Alvarez instead of Bivol

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by Zapater

I genuinely think that Smith is naive enough to believe he is the best (or among them) in the division and had a genuine shot. He was in his hometown with a partisan crowd expecting something. The realisation that you're nowhere close must be a hard one for him and everyone else in that arena to swallow.

It is very possible the thought that.

You ever meet a decent boxer that did not think he was capable of beating his opponent after having done his camp? Exactly.


I still think he thought his best chance was to catch Beterbiev cold at the start of the fight and that is why he started as he did. Think Smith learned from his loss to Bivol that trying to outbox certain fighters leads to a death by a thousand cuts type loss (though he did rock Bivol a couple times in their fight despite it being a mostly one sided full distance fight)

Unfortunately for him Beterbiev was ready to go from the first bell and was soon purring.

Is a good win for Beterbiev though as Smith is not a poor fighter and was easily overwhelmed which further showcases how good Beterbiev is.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by spud_gun

Now imagine Beterbiev in with Alvarez instead of Bivol

Ginger Balls would not be that stupid. He went after Bivol as he was seen as the lighter hitting light heavy (lighter hitting in comparison to Beterbiev that is rather than being a light hitter).


Beterbiev would have mauled him. Beterbiev is one of those guys that has a great mix of everything. Plenty of power, plenty of stamina, very durable, very good basics, and a very high ring IQ.

He is not unbeatable but you either need a very very lucky shot to beat him or be one of two types of boxer, either a hyper durable heavy handed guy that can go into the trenches and gamble on being the last guy standing, or a guy with good durability and decent power but who can fight a 10 or 12 round highly tactical battle to try and negate the power.

Unless Beterbiev is having an off day I do not see anyone that stands out in the division to be the former type fight, lucky shot notwithstanding, and Bivol
might have the skill set to be the latter but would still favour Beterbiev in that match up.

[fidget]

Juggernaut gonna Juggernaut.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Ah fuck it, I have to bite and have a nip at Joyce.


Joyce is a hype show. He is like a slow motion version of Wilder.


His "defence" is going to become a really big problem when he comes up against guys who can hit hard and/or hit with a high level mix of timing and accuracy.




Joshua would stop him with some ease given how easy Joyce is to hit, and Fury would embarrass him.

Would go as far as to say Fury would look like a prime Lennox Lewis against the likes of Joyce. Fury could spend a month on kebabs and still beat him.

Actually I would fancy Wilder to stop him as well.

[fidget]

He’s like a golem

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by fidget

He’s like a golem

A shit golem instead of a clay one

[fidget]

I'm not disagreeing.
I just like the fella and watch his fights with curiosity.
Juggernaut!

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by fidget

I'm not disagreeing.
I just like the fella and watch his fights with curiosity.
Juggernaut!

Much as I do not rate him, he is probably better than most of the guys being touted as the next big thing from the US.


I just do not think he is even close to the level of Fury. I could see Fury having an even easier time against him than he did in fights two and three against Wilder. If Fury took the fight and was fully motivated by it, then I think he could force a stoppage against Joyce in four rounds.

A million miles behind the likes of Usyk technically.

And I think he would make Joshua look like a swift mover with both hand and feet.


Joyce, for me, is a cash cow for his promoter. He turns 37 this year so there can be no long term prospects with him even if we were a quicker moving heavy and had a decent defence.

What they need to be finding out now is if he has the in ring intelligence and patience to take care of a man who brings a game plan with him into the ring and is not just there to be a punch sponge for him.

On that basis I would look to match him against someone like Sanchez next.

Going by the comments Sanchez made after the fight at the weekend, he fancies a crack at Joyce so would not be difficult to make.

Sanchez is no great shakes and is not a heavy hitter, but he is technically sound, will usually have a plan B for when his plan A is met with force, and he has decent enough instincts when hurt. So he is the sort of guy that should be used, imo of course, as a gatekeeper for Joyce in order to move up a level.

Joyce simply saying over and over that he wants the winner of Usyk vs Joshua only hammers, no pun intended, home that a cash out or a short cut to a title fight is all that is wanted.

Would want to see Joyce beat a Sanchez and then move up to a Parker level fighter. He beats those two, or two on the same level, then give him a shot at a main strap. He cannot beat those two then he does not even belong on a short list of record padding names for the title holders.


Do think a lot of promoters rightnow are trying to avoid matching their charges up with guys on their own level though. They are all taking fights against guys way below their own level and killing time until the main belts get spilt up and for there to be low level pairings made as title bouts.

Think it is inevitable after Usyk fights Joshua that the three belts ( WBA, WBO and IBF ) will be split up within a few months once organisations start to squabble over whose pay check...sorry I mean mandatory is next.

In an ideal world the winner of Usyk/Joshua would be meeting Fury with the winner getting the WBC, WBA, WBO, Ring and IBF championship belts along with the Lineal title,

[fidget]

Again I’m not disagreeing with you about his level but he definitely showed ring intelligence against Dubois.
Once he knew the eye damage was done he just jabbed jabbed jabbed at it until the stoppage.
He’s an intelligent bloke who I’d say has a very good idea of his limitations and will be happy to make a large amount of money then retire and paint away to his heart’s content.

[Jaco_Pastorious]

Originally Posted by fidget

Again I’m not disagreeing with you about his level but he definitely showed ring intelligence against Dubois.
Once he knew the eye damage was done he just jabbed jabbed jabbed at it until the stoppage.
He’s an intelligent bloke who I’d say has a very good idea of his limitations and will be happy to make a large amount of money then retire and paint away to his heart’s content.

I was just trying to have that rarest of things in this thread and that is some actual chat and debate about boxing.

Which is why I expanded on Joyce just being someone I do not rate, to musing about how I thought he could show what he does or does not have and who might be a good tests of his actual level.


At present Joyce is, for me, a hype job to draw in mug punters who want to stand in the crowd, sing sweet Caroline, and repeat things they get spoonfed by "experts" on Sky about Joyce being the real deal, having amazing power and so on.

Now that is not Joyce's fault, however what Joyce and his team can control is the level of fighter he goes after if he is serious about becoming a more rounded fighter or of he wants to bypass the learning process and use hype to just get in with a top dog and be a heavy bag for a big pay day.

Either way at his age, Joyce needs to do one or the other really soon.

I see four fighters stopping him.

Fury - Stops Joyce with ease

Joshua - maybe with a few hairy early moments as Joshua creates a lot of his own problems in the ring.

Usyk - Pretty straight forward technical schooling by Usylk that results in a late stoppage.


Wilder - Yep I think this clown would stop Joyce simply because he has the one thing Joyce has none of and that is the ability to throw heavy shots with speed.


Then of the make up the number fighters



Parker - I actually think Parker might outpoint him, but Parker is the level he needs to beat to show he shoyld get a shot at a strap imo.


Sanchez - Rate Sanchez a level beow Parker and as such Joyce should be stopping him to move up to Parker. Sanchez is a light hitter, by heavweight standards anyway, but I think the skillset and style that Sanchez has would answer some questions, albeit at mid to low mid level, about Joyce.


Zhang - Another big lump like Joyce albeit a southpaw. Put them together to rule one out. Would favour Joyce so that let's you know my thought on Zhang.

Whyte - Think he has mentally checked out of the sport. A few years back I would have expected a motivated version of him to stop Joyce but think Whyte is done and against Fury he showed he does deserve a crack at a belt for a long time.


As for the rest, well we are in an era where guys like Wallin, Fury (Hughie), Bakole, Helenius, Ruiz Jr, Old Man Ortiz, Hrgovic and Hunter are in the top ten to top fifteen when it comes to ranking the "best" out there.