It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register please click here...

est1892

Go Back   est1892 > Football > General Football

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 13-11-14, 07:09 PM   #81
Kenneth
Dan Ashcroft
 
Kenneth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 55,675
But the English FA has been found to be corrupt also. Why would other European FAs want to form an organisation with them?
Kenneth is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 13-11-14, 07:52 PM   #82
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Has it?

Quote:
Martin Lipton ✔ @MartinLipton


FA declared 35K Gala Dinner for CFU - "damaged integrity"; Qatar hid 1.2m CAF Congress and dinner - ''didn't affect integrity'' - mmmmm!
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-14, 07:53 PM   #83
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenneth View Post
But the English FA has been found to be corrupt also. Why would other European FAs want to form an organisation with them?
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-14, 07:58 PM   #84
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-14, 08:06 PM   #85
Kenneth
Dan Ashcroft
 
Kenneth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 55,675
Anyway, the difference is that the English FA volunteered evidence and the others simply refused to, and the complete lack of investigatory powers meant there was only incriminating evidence against those that volunteered it.
Kenneth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-14, 08:19 PM   #86
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Or, not even, if the said 'occurrences' were declared to and approved by FIFA before they happened, as the FA say.

What a mess. And it's open warfare all round. It's quite funny really.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 08:18 AM   #87
kev776
Paisley
 
kev776's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,713
It is not funny, more scallies getting rich at our expense. We, the mugs continue to get ripped off following the sport we love.

Fucking bandits and pocket lining thieves, the lot of them.
__________________
Those that hid Anne Frank were breaking the law.
Those that killed her, were following the law.
kev776 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 09:23 AM   #88
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
I think the level of incompetence, denial, superiority and immorality that generally goes on at that level is so off the scale that laughing at it is pretty much the only way to deal with it, for me at least. And they're not getting rich at my expense anymore. I've pretty much stopped paying for football these days. If we all did the same they might start to think twice about their grubby little industry.

Greg Dyke was interviewed on Newsnight last night and didn't do himself any favours. For a savvy man of the media, he came across as incompetent as the rest of them. I guess working in football does that to you.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 09:32 AM   #89
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,368
He floundered, how he didnt expect to be quizzed on Chedwyn Evans is a mystery.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 09:39 AM   #90
Phoenix07
The Normal One
 
Phoenix07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 10,027
It was pretty cringeworthy from Dyke, and not purely on the Evans case. It was as though he couldn't put any sentences together and he took ages when answering.
Phoenix07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 09:46 AM   #91
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
He floundered, how he didnt expect to be quizzed on Chedwyn Evans is a mystery.
It's not that part I'm referring to, but that was an even bigger car crash.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 02:45 PM   #92
fah-q
Touching cloth
 
fah-q's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 16,676
I'm quite enjoying the FA get fucked in the style in which they normally fuck others.
fah-q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 03:31 PM   #93
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
It's the definitive cluster fuck isn't it.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-14, 03:52 PM   #94
Liverpool
Paisley
 
Liverpool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 16,206
When the FA appear to be moral moral crusaders in world football you know its fucked
Liverpool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 10:56 AM   #95
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30077311

Quote:
World Cup: Former FA chief David Bernstein calls for boycott

By David Ornstein

The English Football Association has been urged to lobby Uefa for a European boycott of the next World Cup - unless Fifa implements meaningful reform.

Former FA chairman David Bernstein said it was time for drastic action against football's world governing body.

He believes the tournament would not be taken seriously without Europe's major nations and that a boycott would be supported by the English public.

Bernstein has also resigned from Fifa's anti-discrimination taskforce.

He described it as "ineffectual" and wishes to end his ties with Fifa.

In an exclusive interview, the 71-year-old also said:

•Fifa is a "totalitarian" set-up that reminds him of "the old Soviet empire" and is "beyond ridicule".
•The credibility of football is "suffering enormously" under the current Fifa regime.
•Choosing Qatar to host the 2022 World Cup was "one of the most ludicrous decisions in the history of sport".
•Fifa president Sepp Blatter will remain in power "unless someone does something about it".

Bernstein was speaking after Thursday's report into the bidding process for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups was questioned by the man who conducted the investigation, Michael Garcia, just hours following its release.

It is the latest controversy to hit football's world governing body, which has been riddled with allegations of corruption in recent times.

Bernstein, who led the FA for three years from January 2011 - a month after Russia and Qatar were named hosts for 2018 and 2022 respectively, with England missing out on 2018 - and he wants Fifa to change its ways or face a challenge that it finds impossible to ignore.

"England on its own cannot influence this," he said. "If we tried to do something like that, we'd be laughed at.

"I think England within Uefa undoubtedly have the power to influence Fifa, but to do so they would have to consider withdrawing from the World Cup, the next World Cup, unless proper reform - including Mr Blatter not standing [for a fifth term] - is carried out at Fifa.

"If I was at the FA now, I would do everything I could to encourage other nations within Uefa - and there are some who would definitely be on side, others may be not - to take this line.

"At some stage, you have to walk the talk, stop talking and do something."

When asked again if he was calling for the FA to unite with Uefa to boycott Fifa and the World Cup, Bernstein replied: "Unless it (Fifa) could achieve the reforms that would bring Fifa back into the respectable world community, yes I would.

"It sounds drastic, but, frankly, this has gone on for years now, it's not improving, it's going from bad to worse to worse.

"There are 54 countries within Uefa. There's Germany, Spain, Italy, France and Holland - all powerful. You can't hold a serious World Cup without them. They have the power to influence if they have the will."

Similar views have been expressed by German Football League president Reinhard Rauball, who suggested Uefa could leave Fifa if Garcia's findings are not published in full.

England's World Cup bid was criticised in the Fifa report with the FA accused of flouting bidding rules, while Qatar was cleared of corruption allegations.

Bernstein accused world football's governing body of trying to deflect attention from its own failings.

"I don't think much to these accusations. I don't think we should get away from the real issue, the real issue is Fifa governance and trying to achieve real change. But it won't happen easily."

Bernstein acknowledges Fifa's power but is adamant the governing body can be pressured into change if the World Cup is targeted.

"Fifa is sort of a totalitarian set-up," he said. "Bits of it remind me of the old Soviet empire. People don't speak out and if they do they get quashed.

Play mediaJump media playerMedia player helpOut of media player. Press enter to return or tab to continue.Advertisement
World Cup bid: Simon Johnson, who led England's 2018 bid, denies Fifa claims that they flouted bid rules

"The [Garcia] investigation is possibly flawed but when the investigator complains that his own report is being misinterpreted, it's beyond ridicule."

Bernstein backs the authorities ("Swiss government, Swiss tax authorities, FBI, Brussels, the European community") and sponsors to hold Fifa to account, but thinks Uefa poses the greatest threat.

Much of his anger stems from the decision to award the 2022 World Cup to Qatar, where blistering summer temperatures means the event could be switched to winter.

"The choosing of Qatar was clearly one of the most ludicrous decisions in the history of sport," the former Manchester City chairman said.

"You might as well have chosen Iceland in the winter. It was like an Alice in Wonderland sort of decision.

"The attempt to change the timing is also absolutely wrong. It's like a false prospectus; you put a bid in on one basis and then when you've won you change to another.

"There's also a background of political, social and employment issues that keep emerging and I think there's a danger that Fifa and football might be embarrassed by what emerges in the coming years," he added.

"It's certainly not sour grapes. England didn't lose to Qatar, we lost to Russia. Qatar is clearly a totally unsuitable place to hold a World Cup."

Bernstein described Blatter as "formidable, very shrewd, very smart" and conceded it would "not be easy" to bring his reign to an end.

He went on to reveal he had quit Fifa's anti-discrimination taskforce, which was introduced in 2013 with Jeffrey Webb at the helm.

"I've resigned for two reasons: firstly, the body has been pretty ineffectual. I've been on it for more than a year and we only had one meeting; secondly because frankly I don't wish to be personally associated with Fifa any further.

"Fifa sets up these things - and we've seen it with their regulation - that look good in theory but don't seem to do very much in practice."
Like.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 04:10 PM   #96
Pablo
Anti-Antipodeanite
 
Pablo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 24,820
I thought we boycotted the last World Cup very effectively to be fair.
Pablo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 06:03 PM   #97
McDermotX
Paisley
 
McDermotX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo View Post
I thought we boycotted the last World Cup very effectively to be fair.


As for Bernstein.......anything that can re-evaluate FIFA's stranglehold on the world game can only be a good thing, but perhaps it might have served the cause better if he'd suggested something like this from inside his previous position of power back then.

I mean, it's not like FIFA's questionable procedures are a new thing.
__________________
"I will make the boys feel your support"
Jurgen Klopp June 2020
McDermotX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 06:33 PM   #98
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,368
The FA didn't care about Panorama when they first exposed this in 2010. Said something about them being embarrassing. Because they were desperate for the 2018 WC

Now they want to stick it too FIFA they are all over the BBC saying its all corrupt. Cant blame the rest of the world for thinking its sour grapes. Because thats all it looks like now.

Total shower.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 06:50 PM   #99
McDermotX
Paisley
 
McDermotX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 35,360
__________________
"I will make the boys feel your support"
Jurgen Klopp June 2020
McDermotX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 06:53 PM   #100
RichC
Meh
 
RichC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,188
The thing is the administration of football at the top level is incredibly corrupt with FIFA being the worst, its shown with the utter joke of this corruption investigation however it's rife amongst the country FAs as well where it's all run as an old boys club who look after each other first and foremost and worry about the actual good of the game a distant 2nd.

The entire game could do with purging the whole lot Blatter, Platini etc.... But it'll never happen without some sort of criminal investigation which I can't see happening tbh.
RichC is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 17-11-14, 07:35 PM   #101
-V-
Paisley
 
-V-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 13,049
The primary reason Blatter doesn't want to retire is because he knows the minute he is removed he will lose his protection. It will be like Jimmy Saville all over again, once he's gone all the shit will come out about his dealings. It's bad enough for him while he's in a position to withhold information, imagine the shit that will come out when he can't ' hide it
-V- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 08:56 PM   #102
kev776
Paisley
 
kev776's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,713
Quote:
Originally Posted by McDermotX View Post


As for Bernstein.......anything that can re-evaluate FIFA's stranglehold on the world game can only be a good thing, but perhaps it might have served the cause better if he'd suggested something like this from inside his previous position of power back then.

I mean, it's not like FIFA's questionable procedures are a new thing.
This is soo true, it is the same with the Armd Forces, every 2/3 years a new Chief of the Defence Staff, is appointed by the Government, it makes him the senior soldier alive and a direct adviser to the P.M. One hears nothing from these very senior professional soldiers until they finish and retire on a huge fat hairy-arsed pension.

At this point they start gobbing and bleating about how defence cuts have cut too deep and how we now lack the ability to project any force beyond Salisbury Plain.

Not a peep from the fuckers when they were in Command.
__________________
Those that hid Anne Frank were breaking the law.
Those that killed her, were following the law.
kev776 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-14, 11:55 PM   #103
Trippendicular
Fagan
 
Trippendicular's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev776 View Post
This is soo true, it is the same with the Armd Forces, every 2/3 years a new Chief of the Defence Staff, is appointed by the Government, it makes him the senior soldier alive and a direct adviser to the P.M. One hears nothing from these very senior professional soldiers until they finish and retire on a huge fat hairy-arsed pension.

At this point they start gobbing and bleating about how defence cuts have cut too deep and how we now lack the ability to project any force beyond Salisbury Plain.

Not a peep from the fuckers when they were in Command.
Exactly. The hypocrisy of complaining about corruption after you were happy to ride the gravy train is astounding.
Trippendicular is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 05:25 PM   #104
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Another twist in this tale of madness:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30103293

Quote:
Fifa lodges criminal complaint over World Cup hosting

Fifa has lodged a criminal complaint regarding "possible misconduct in connection with the hosting rights of the 2018 and 2022 World Cups".

Fifa president Sepp Blatter lodged the complaint on the recommendation of judge Hans-Joachim Eckert.

Eckert complied the 42-page report that gave the green light to Russia and Qatar to host the next two World Cups.

Blatter said: "If we had anything to hide, we would hardly be taking this matter to the Attorney General."

More follows
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 05:28 PM   #105
Bender
Bite my shiny metal ass!
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by dom9 View Post
Another twist in this tale of madness:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30103293
hahaha making somebody else the Fall guy.......he's so fuckin corrupt
Bender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 05:28 PM   #106
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Where does an organisation which apparently operates outside the jurisdiction of any known country on this planet lodge a criminal complaint? What does that even mean?

I suspect it's a little bit of hot air to make things look as though action is being taken, when in fact it could be the most elaborate smear campaign to date. Another smokescreen? It'll come out soon enough I suppose.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 05:30 PM   #107
Bender
Bite my shiny metal ass!
 
Bender's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,777
Quote:
Originally Posted by dom9 View Post
Where does an organisation which apparently operates outside the jurisdiction of any known country on this planet lodge a criminal complaint? What does that even mean?

I suspect it's a little bit of hot air to make things look as though action is being taken, when in fact it could be the most elaborate smear campaign to date. Another smokescreen? It'll come out soon enough I suppose.
imo Countries and sponsors need to pull out of Euros/and World cups for this Corrupt Organisation to be shut down and rid of it's bent Members
Bender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 05:54 PM   #108
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Reuters:

https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/...0019--sow.html

Quote:
ZURICH (Reuters) - World soccer's governing body FIFA on Tuesday lodged a criminal complaint over the "possible misconduct of individual persons" in connection with the awarding of hosting rights for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups.

Last Thursday FIFA said there were no grounds to reopen the controversial bidding processes, following a long-awaited report compiled by chairman of the investigatory chamber of FIFA's Ethics Committee Michael Garcia.

However, FIFA president Sepp Blatter confirmed on Tuesday that, on the recommendation of FIFA ethics judge Hans-Joachim Eckert, it was "his duty" to lodge a complaint to the Swiss courts.

Former U.S. attorney Garcia said last week that the governing body had misrepresented his findings, plunging FIFA into a fresh crisis after continued misgivings about how Russia and Qatar were handed the next two World Cups.

Eckert, at the time, ruled that any improprieties uncovered by Garcia were too minor to require new bidding.

Answering questions on FIFA's own website, Blatter said on Tuesday: "I lodged the criminal complaint upon the recommendation of Judge Eckert.

"I cannot, however, comment on any possible criminal offences. I am not a lawyer. I also was not the addressee of the investigatory report, which I have never seen.

"However, given Judge Eckert's recommendation, it was my duty – as the President of FIFA – to lodge the complaint."

Rejecting calls to publish Garcia's report in full, Blatter said FIFA had no authority to do that.

"If FIFA were to publish the report, we would be violating our own association law as well as state law," said the Swiss.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:02 PM   #109
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
FIFA claims it has no authority to publish a report it commissioned? Well I guess the only person that does have authority is therefore the author?
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:06 PM   #110
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
Quote:
Originally Posted by dom9 View Post
Another twist in this tale of madness:

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30103293
Logical guess it is the person who is most tipped as a successor to Sepp Blatter. They are usually the ones who find themselves shoved out. FIFA is run the same way that Griffin used to run the BNP - challengers must be silenced!
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:09 PM   #111
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChesterDave View Post
Logical guess it is the person who is most tipped as a successor to Sepp Blatter. They are usually the ones who find themselves shoved out. FIFA is run the same way that Griffin used to run the BNP - challengers must be silenced!
Assuming these actions are the result of last week's report, and the only people who came in for criticism were the English and Jack Warner, and then you take into account the FA's very public statements since, then I can't see how the proceedings could be against anyone else.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:15 PM   #112
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
I read the "in connection with the awarding of hosting rights for the 2018 and 2022 World Cups" to be the significant part of it though. And the FA had no part in that. They may go for Warner, but don't see how they can go for the FA if the FA have declared all of their dealings and other nations have hidden it.


Re public dealings: As far as bribes sweeteners go, Qatar offering to dismantle several football stadiums and ship them to Africa has got to be a pretty big one. Sure would be a tempter for an African delegate to vote Qatar!
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:18 PM   #113
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 67,258
That sentence could mean anything in FIFA speak. We'll find out either way soon enough.
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-14, 07:26 PM   #114
G
Paisley
 
G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 16,686
They've already said the process to award the world cup for those years wasn't corrupt and the investigation is now closed yet they are now saying people involved in that process may have broken the law. How can the two be separate!
G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-11-14, 02:20 PM   #115
Charly
Shankly
 
Charly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,390
It must be for nations that did not win. Wasn't the main complaint in the report about the English bid? That would be funny.
__________________
In the beginning, Fowler created the Heaven and the Earth.
Charly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-11-14, 11:48 PM   #116
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/30264098

Platini allegedly given a painting believed to be by Picasso in order to vote for Russia.

Probably very little mileage in such a derisory gift with Picasso paintings being ten a penny
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-14, 07:22 PM   #117
baitman
Daddy day care
 
baitman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23,923
i have just noticed this on the bbc football page.

Why didn't Russia cooperate with the FIFA enquiry?

Have I Got News For You Host David Mitchell investigates FIFA's World Cup corruption report.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p02c...medy_videoclip
__________________
removing all the weak links makes us stronger

too many gutless players, no beef or desire. pussies everywhere... sack them all, but not VVD or Fabinho
baitman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-14, 04:46 PM   #118
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
Bad news for old Joey

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-30451609

New Swiss law aimed at tackling money laundering for heads of Sporting Bodies
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-14, 04:09 PM   #119
ChesterDave
Paisley
 
ChesterDave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 27,838
FIFA dismisses Garcia's complaint as 'not admissible'.

Fucking crooks
ChesterDave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16-12-14, 05:43 PM   #120
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 36,368
There's a shock.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  est1892 > Football > General Football

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:10 PM.


Our Current Balance versus Target. Please help us: (Donate)

Kindly Hosted By DigitalWales
Any posts remain the responsibility of the poster. Neither est1892, its Owners nor any company affiliated will be held responsible from any disputes arising from these posts. The views raised are not necessarily those held by the website or its owners.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.