It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register please click here...

est1892

Go Back   est1892 > Football > General Football

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 19-01-17, 11:26 AM   #1
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Dementia in Football.

This story resonates with me on a personal level, as my best mates Dad, who was professional with Hearts in the 70's has recently been diagnosed with Dementia.

Having watched the film Concussion last year it seems we have a similar issue with footballers, particularly from that era going on to have issues with dementia. It is apparently something that the various Associations in the UK chose not to support research into.

For example, 3 of the starting XI from Englands World Cup winning starting XI suffered with dementia, Nobby Stiles and Jeff Astle succumbed to it and Jack Charlton apparently suffers from severe memory loss which is a staggeringly high amount. Bobby Moore has well documented issues with depression.

It is a fact that these guys were training to head old leather footballs - a story which brought all this to my attention in the press up here at the weekend mentioned a Dundee Utd player (who succumbed to dementia) who trained by heading a medicine ball FFS - thousands of times, which will clearly have an effect on brain performance.

Football has a care of duty here, one which it is apparently so far choosing to ignore. The similarities between this and the story in 'Concussion' are many, with many seeing the game as being under attack.

It is interesting, and it will continue to be interesting as these cases continue to mount up. Just another skeleton in 'the beautiful games' closet.

Some articles on this.

here

here

here

and from the NFL here

The Wiki page of the much vilified doctor who pieced it together in the US.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 19-01-17, 11:55 AM   #2
labourRed
Shankly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7,193
I actually opened this thread with that film in mind. I really need to watch it.

Anyway another story in the media at the moment is the plight of George North. I think around NY i was reading a doctor saying if he was a normal person he'd be told to never play rugby again.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/r...-give-12475652

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/r...aking-12459762

I do worry about the kid, i think he's about 24. He'll be fine now, but at what price in later life.

Sorry, for deviating from football, but yes - there's clearly legacy issues to address there as well.
labourRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-17, 12:02 PM   #3
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Agreed. Though Rugby definitely has better rules around head injury now than football (which basically has none) in this instance they appear to have been ignored. I was listening to the Glasgow v. Munster game on Friday and they mentioned in that game that a Munster player had been knocked out and played on (I think the clubs get retrospectively fined if this happens now).

Its a shame with North, because he is supremely talented, but he needs to take a view on what is a short career v. what will be hopefully a long life. And the clubs do need to view the players as people rather than game winning assets.

I watched a short documentary about cases of dementia in Rugby players (in Scotland, though I am sure the issues are UK wide) and again the instances are incredibly high.

*There is a brilliant documentary about Snowboarder Kevin Pearce, who suffered a sever head injury called the Crash Reel.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-17, 12:11 PM   #4
labourRed
Shankly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 7,193
I will definitely watch that - cheers for the shout.

It's a tough one, it's easy for folk in cosy offices to make objective decisions based on long-term health but people's love of sport means it's hard to be so black/white on the issue. Which is why GN has been basically told it's up to him.

You don't have to go far back to see the likes of Nick Blackwell getting back in the ring after a coma to show you how hard it is for people to walk away from sport overnight. Even those that ultimately have to retire can have a hard time adjusting to a new way of life.
labourRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-17, 12:15 PM   #5
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by labourRed View Post
I will definitely watch that - cheers for the shout.

It's a tough one, it's easy for folk in cosy offices to make objective decisions based on long-term health but people's love of sport means it's hard to be so black/white on the issue. Which is why GN has been basically told it's up to him.

You don't have to go far back to see the likes of Nick Blackwell getting back in the ring after a coma to show you how hard it is for people to walk away from sport overnight. Even those that ultimately have to retire can have a hard time adjusting to a new way of life.
Agreed, it is a huge issue, and not one easily solved.

With GN, it is a game he excels at, he loves and one which he also makes his living from. Not easy things to turn your back on. But is it one you would risk everything for? Difficult to say.

That documentary covers a lot of this actually, Kevin Pearce was the no1 Snowbarder in the World and his accident occurs in the run in to the Olympics. It is effectively about him coming to terms with his life post crash, and the actuality of his situation v. his desires as an elite sportsman. It is very moving.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-17, 12:45 PM   #6
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,194
Aye, it's terrible. A friend of mine's Dad - a Chesterfield FC legend famous for his headed goals - is also suffering in a bad way, with a rare form of dementia called Pick's Disease. It, like all of them, is a heartbreaking story. Football needs to do more about it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/...ter-legendary/

Quote:
Football's dementia crisis: A heartbreaking encounter with legendary Ernie Moss



Jeremy Wilson, deputy football correspondent
29 DECEMBER 2016 • 8:00AM

It did not take long in the company of Dave, a Chesterfield taxi driver, to fully appreciate that we were visiting local royalty. “What brings you here then? Ernie Moss!? Wow. Our greatest player. Record goalscorer. Played 850 professional games. A hero.” Such adulation also remains evident whenever Moss attends a home game. “It takes 15 minutes to get from the car into the ground with people wanting pictures and autographs,” says Sarah, the youngest of his two daughters.

Now 67, Moss has barely aged outwardly since he retired in 1992 and remains instantly recognisable to any self-respecting Spireite. Appearances, though, could hardly be more deceptive. For while there is a big friendly smile and shake of the hand, Moss does not speak. He can no longer articulate more than the very occasional word, which is usually “superb”. He refuses to leave his house unless it is to watch Chesterfield and he spends every day completing – with unerring accuracy – copious numbers of Sudoku puzzles. Christmas provided a change of rhythm only in that there was a large pile of new books.

And yet, while one area of his brain clearly still functions efficiently, others have shut down. He cannot follow a conversation and needs full-time care to be reminded to complete the most routine task, such as eating or cleaning his teeth. He is also one of many former footballers suffering from a degenerative brain condition. Moss has had Pick’s Disease, which is a rare form of dementia, since his late fifties and has already outlived the usual expectancy for what is an irreversible condition. He was a renowned header of the ball and his family are convinced that football is the cause of a devastating condition that, like Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s and Motor Neurone disease, can be caused by repeated blows to the head. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) is the umbrella term for those brain conditions that have long been associated with boxers but are also now shockingly evident among other sportsmen.



Football is still yet to facilitate promised research but one medical expert has told The Telegraph that the anecdotal evidence is “frightening”. Of the surviving eight outfield members of the 1966 World Cup team, half are now suffering with Alzheimer’s or some form of memory loss. “It seems almost to be of epidemic proportion,” John Stiles, the son of Nobby and himself a former professional, told The Telegraph.

Dr Willie Stewart, the neuropathologist who diagnosed CTE in both Jeff Astle and Frank Kopel, said that wider answers could have been provided within two years of the 2002 Astle inquest. “And yet football puts its head in the sand and refuses either to help or properly look into this,” says Nikki, Ernie’s eldest daughter. The family have followed football’s sexual abuse scandal and, as a new generation despairs at past inertia, they see a parallel. “The football community is fantastic but the authorities look away when something difficult happens,” says Nikki. “Of course they are two very different issues but you have to wonder if protecting the product of the game has been more important than protecting people. Football is letting down our kids, our dads, our ex-professionals and our current players. I believe people will look back one day and wonder how we have been so slow to react. The link is obvious and, sadly, there is no evidence to assume that current players will be unaffected.”

Jenny winces as she thinks back over Ernie’s career which spanned some 24 years and more matches in English league history than any striker other than Frank Worthington. Also in his sixties, Worthington admitted some “short-term memory impairment” this year but denied his daughter’s claim that he now has Alzheimer’s. “Look around his eyes,” says Jenny, pointing, as Ernie studies another puzzle. “Scars everywhere. I’ve seen him have stitches put in and then come back on during a game. Teeth knocked out. He was also heading the ball every day in training for decades.” The link to football appears even more compelling when you ask the family about other former players. “There are many suffering from brain conditions,” says Jenny. “The Jeff Astle Foundation has been inundated. I can think of five friends of ours who have died in the last two years.” The strong suspicion – which is also shared by the Astle and Kopel families – is that football is “sweeping it under the carpet” out of fear for what they might find. “We feel disgusted,” says Sarah. The families simply want the truth and for some of football’s vast riches to help fund the Astle campaign for care facilities that are appropriate for relatively young former sportsmen. “If you had said to dad that this is what could and probably would happen he would have still played football,” says Sarah. “It was his life; it was all he ever wanted to do. It is not about stopping people but they should have the knowledge to make a choice.”

The family also want to raise awareness among health professionals who, in their experience, can be slow to recognise dementia in younger people and are unaware of any increased risk among footballers. Moss was only formally diagnosed in 2014 even though the family became conscious that something was wrong around 10 years earlier. “When he stopped taking any interest in football, to the point where he wouldn’t watch Match of the Day, I thought, ‘This is not right’,” says Nikki. “When we were younger, he would only ever pick us up on a night out either before or after Match of the Day.”

There were also mood swings and even incidents of road rage that were utterly out of character for a gentle giant of a man who was booked only once and never sent off in his career. “We knew something was wrong,” says Sarah. “We were on holiday and mum said, ‘Would you talk to him?’ I was sat on the sun-lounger and said, ‘Are you feeling alright? We just noticed you forgetting things’. He was willing to see the doctor. Yet I mentioned it when we got home and he said, ‘What are you on about?’ He had no recollection of what had been a lengthy and emotional conversation. I knew then.”



With Ernie telling doctors that he was fine, there were numerous visits before his diagnosis. Pick’s Disease impacts on the front part of the brain and, while Ernie’s mood is again now generally happy with medication, continual decline is inevitable. He cannot remember when and what he has eaten and so, given the chance, he would devour entire packets of sweets, chocolate or his favourite fish and chips without stopping. Car-keys must be hidden for his own safety and yet there are those small parts of his thinking – and routine – that remain intact.

While we are all chatting over a cup of tea, he suddenly breaks off from Sudoku to scan the newspaper and point out that there is football on television that evening. He also particularly now enjoys cartoons. His love for the game has returned and, when he watches Chesterfield, he will motion to head the ball whenever it is in the air. Amazingly, when the family took him to a recent away game at Port Vale and got stuck in traffic, he began pointing to a back-street short-cut to the ground. Moss left Port Vale in 1983.

After a lifetime signing autographs and having his picture taken, he also still happily grants all requests and it is extraordinary to watch him pose with all the natural swagger of a film star for the Telegraph’s photographer. And yet, as the family readily acknowledge, he does not comprehend what is happening around him. Christmas Day was happy for Ernie because he was surrounded by loved ones, good food and that new stack of Sudoku books; but he had no idea what the date was.

When Chesterfield put on ‘Ernie Moss Day’ in their match last year against Port Vale, he had to be virtually pushed out onto the pitch to receive the rapturous appreciation of fans rather than have his usual half-time cup of tea. “He was laughing and smiling but he didn’t grasp that it was for him and it is heart-breaking when fans approach him and he is unable to respond,” says Nikki.

Familiarity is also everything to the extent that Nikki and her husband Stu got married at Chesterfield’s Proact Stadium as it is the one venue outside the house in which he feels comfortable. They want now to be open about his condition for two reasons. First and foremost, they feel responsibility to past, present and future generations of players to ensure action over the “silent scandal” of failed dementia research into former footballers. There is also a desire to let people know locally so that they understand when Ernie is unable to engage as they might expect.

A mixture of laughter, tears and enormous doses of love are what currently sustain Jenny, Nikki and Sarah but there is also fear at what the future might hold. The physical and emotional toll of caring for Ernie is huge and, while meeting this incredibly tight-knit family is both uplifting and inspiring, they also live in solemn resignation at how this tragic journey will end.

“There is no shadow of a doubt that he will end up in care and my biggest worry is that we have got to fund it,” says Jenny, who gave up her job at Morrisons to care full-time for Ernie. “There is no pension from football; he gets nothing.” They then explain how they were subjected to a process that seemed almost to border on cruelty in requiring Ernie to be assessed in a series of unfamiliar environments just to receive a most basic benefit. Ernie and Jenny once dreamed of moving to France when they sold the local ‘Moss and Miller’ sports shop that they ran with former England cricketer Geoff Miller but the daughters are now scared that their mum will soon have to sell what has been the family home since 1979. “We don’t want compensation; we just want to know our dad and footballers like him will be looked after,” says Nikki. “We are so proud of him. He is forever our hero as well.”

Pick’s Disease
What is it?
“Pick’s Disease” or frontotemporal dementia is rare form of dementia, estimated to affect around 16,000 people in the UK.

What are the symptoms?
People with the disease typically experience progressive personality and behaviour changes, then increasing difficulty with speech and language.

What causes it?
Abnormal proteins build up in the front part of the brain, becoming toxic and killing the cells there. It is unknown what causes the build-up, although a family history of the disease seems to play a part.

How is it different to Alzheimer’s?
It is typically diagnosed far earlier than Alzheimer’s, affecting people in their 50s or even younger. Although people with Alzheimer’s also experience behaviour and personality changes, that happens far later in the disease’s progression.

Is there a cure?
There is currently no medication to reverse or slow down the progress of frontotemporal dementia. However, some treatments can alleviate the symptoms.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19-01-17, 06:01 PM   #7
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Thats a sad read, and a worrying sign for what my mates Dad has ahead of him.

The signs have apparently been there for a while, my Dad golfs with him and he is a low handicap, but has over the last couple of years started to not recognise which ball he has hit. He couldn't remember where his car was etc, not recognising people he definitely knew, all leading up to the diagnosis.

I've not seen my mate since they found out, seeing him next month to go to a gig though, so will find out how he is with it all...

The recent publicity is fairly timely, but its hard to see how a cash strapped club in Scotland will be able to help, despite the fact that they clearly should.

Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-02-17, 11:42 PM   #8
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Former Liverpool striker Ian St John has called on football's leaders to look after former professionals who have dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

The 78-year-old ex-Scotland international says several of his old team-mates are affected.

He believes it is as the result of heading heavy footballs in the 1950s and 60s.

"People of our era, the balls we played with were big, heavy things," he told BBC Radio 5 live.

"To lift them up to take a throw-in you'd have to do special training, and the conditions we played in - snow, rain and mud - and we trained with these things as well, every day, heading practice as well.

"Whether this problem of dementia hastens the end of your life or not I don't know, I'm not a medical person - but what I am saying is these were my pals, these were the guys I played with and they have got these problems."

St John believes football as an industry should help ex-pros with care costs and said: "If someone needs special care as a result of their career and their career was football, then football should pay for that."

The Football Association said it was committed to supporting research into degenerative brain disease among former players.

St John's former Liverpool team-mate Geoff Strong, who won the FA Cup in 1965 alongside the Scot, died aged 75 from Alzheimer's in 2013 while last year it was revealed that three members of England's 1966 World Cup squad - Martin Peters, Nobby Stiles and Ray Wilson - have the condition.

Former West Brom striker Jeff Astle died in 2002, aged 59, from brain trauma caused by heading footballs throughout his career.

He was originally diagnosed with early-onset Alzheimer's disease, but a re-examination of his brain found he had died from chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) - a progressive degeneration caused by repeated head trauma.

St John praised the work that Astle's family have done through the Jeff Astle Foundation, which aims to raise awareness of brain injury in all forms of sport.

But he still believes the Professional Footballers' Association and other football authorities can do more to help former players and the families who are caring for them.

"The game is awash with money, absolutely, so you can't turn round and say it's a finance thing," said St John, who played 336 times for Liverpool, scoring 95 goals.

Last year, the FA said it wanted world governing body Fifa to investigate whether former players have dementia as a consequence of playing the game and added that it took concerns about concussion and head injuries "extremely seriously".

"In 2015 we established an expert panel which led to the publication of the FA concussion guidelines," it said.

"The expert panel further agreed that research is particularly required into the issue of whether degenerative brain disease is more common in ex-footballers.

"The FA is determined to support this research and we have recently agreed with the PFA to jointly fund and support this research as we believe that a collaborative approach will strengthen the credibility and resource available."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38911979
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-02-17, 11:26 AM   #9
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Even more coverage.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-38971750
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 12:29 AM   #10
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Fascinating documentary on BBC tonight with Alan Shearer looking into the known cases, links and his own possibilities of dementia in football.

Sobering.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:11 PM   #11
dom9
Ant Pisser
 
dom9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 63,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
Fascinating documentary on BBC tonight with Alan Shearer looking into the known cases, links and his own possibilities of dementia in football.

Sobering.
I was interested to watch that but I was put off by Shearer's BBC sport article (well, it was ghost written for him).
__________________
Oh I don't know.
dom9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:27 PM   #12
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
It is worth watching... Though Shearer is by far the programmes weakest link.

He has some tests to guage his own personal risk of dementia, and seems incredibly nervous through this (justifiably), but then lacks the personality or ability to transfer any of his thoughts and feeling to camera other than in the most banal ways. He then rounds things off despite all of the evidence uncovered by totally bottling it with his last comments, undoing loads of the work done before. He basically concludes that it seems a clear risk, but until there is more evidence he doesn't think anything needs to be done to change the way football is run or coached. Controversial he is not.

He is clearly torn between defending the evidence he has uncovered and the game he loves. He lacks the intelligence to be anything more than a pundit on the subject and though hopefully this will give the subject even more publicity it felt a bit like an opportunity missed. The exact same documentary with a more articulate 90's ex pro (if one exists) would have been far better.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:29 PM   #13
Kenneth
Dan Ashcroft
 
Kenneth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 48,129
It's presented by Alan Shearer, I'll have to pass. Worthy topic though.
Kenneth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:32 PM   #14
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,287
Bet it gets a bigger reach than some ex pro who no one remembers. At least he is sticking his neck out to bring some light to the subject here. I didnt learn much that Ive not already seen with regards to NFL and Wrestling. But it is fascinating that its all coming to the surface now and hopefully going forward players will be better protected and given all the knowledge up front.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:39 PM   #15
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,194
I'm no fan of Shearer but he handled it reasonably well imo and it was a very worthwhile programme.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:43 PM   #16
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
Bet it gets a bigger reach than some ex pro who no one remembers. At least he is sticking his neck out to bring some light to the subject here. I didnt learn much that Ive not already seen with regards to NFL and Wrestling. But it is fascinating that its all coming to the surface now and hopefully going forward players will be better protected and given all the knowledge up front.


Hopefully the documentary will get more funding and shine a light on the ex pros from the 60's and 70's who have Dementia. It would be good if a harder hitting documentary style were to follow this up, the most damning stat really was despite the coroner reporting that Jeff Astle died from dementia brought on by heading a football 15 years ago there has been almost zero follow up work from the football authorities. They dont even know how many ex pros have it.

As mentioned my best mates Dad is an expro from the 70's and he was recently diagnosed, it is fucking depressing to hear the guy that discovered Shearer, and the families of the other players talk and be able to draw so many parallells to someone I know myself.

It is well worth watching despite Shearer.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:47 PM   #17
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy View Post
I'm no fan of Shearer but he handled it reasonably well imo and it was a very worthwhile programme.
Hopefully he has opened the door to allow some more pointed questions.

I feel that a more robust approach/documentary where people are held to task is now required. Shearers fear and nervousness was palpable as he went through the process, which is why the fact that he pulled his punch at the end seemed all the more disappointing.

As Alex says it needed a big name to pull the viewers in and hopefully that is what AS has done.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:51 PM   #18
Shaggy
Dressed up as Batman?
 
Shaggy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 127,194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
Hopefully he has opened the door to allow some more pointed questions.

I feel that a more robust approach/documentary where people are held to task is now required. Shearers fear and nervousness was palpable as he went through the process, which is why the fact that he pulled his punch at the end seemed all the more disappointing.

As Alex says it needed a big name to pull the viewers in and hopefully that is what AS has done.
Yeah that was disappointing. I think I'm in favour of banning heading in kids football. I think.
__________________
I was playing doctors and nurses with my female cousin. I was about 6 or 7, and we were inserting little toy stuffs in our bum holes. Does it count as snogging?
Shaggy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:51 PM   #19
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,287
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post


Hopefully the documentary will get more funding and shine a light on the ex pros from the 60's and 70's who have Dementia. It would be good if a harder hitting documentary style were to follow this up, the most damning stat really was despite the coroner reporting that Jeff Astle died from dementia brought on by heading a football 15 years ago there has been almost zero follow up work from the football authorities. They dont even know how many ex pros have it.

As mentioned my best mates Dad is an expro from the 70's and he was recently diagnosed, it is fucking depressing to hear the guy that discovered Shearer, and the families of the other players talk and be able to draw so many parallells to someone I know myself.

It is well worth watching despite Shearer.
I know a guy in his late 50s suffering from dementia who spent his whole life playing football. Literally until 3 years ago. His wife is convinced is the football. Obviously no proof or hard evidence, but its worth thinking about.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 02:59 PM   #20
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex View Post
I know a guy in his late 50s suffering from dementia who spent his whole life playing football. Literally until 3 years ago. His wife is convinced is the football. Obviously no proof or hard evidence, but its worth thinking about.
I thought the explanation using the jelly brain was the best example (they explain the same effect in Concussion (the film) using a ball inside a jar.

Its the cumulative effect that they cannot get any stats from. I felt that they presented more than enough evidence to support much more research.

It is a pretty stark fact that football is the only sport where the head is actively used to propel an object and that it also currently has no HIA protocols.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 13-11-17, 03:09 PM   #21
Hollowman
Paisley
 
Hollowman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,341
The chronic traumatic encephalopathy research from former NFL players is terrifying. 111 deceased pros donated their brains to science and 110 had CTE. It doesn't even have to happen in late life - Aaron Hernandez's corpse showed one of the most severe cases and he was only 27.
Hollowman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 03:25 PM   #22
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman View Post
The chronic traumatic encephalopathy research from former NFL players is terrifying. 111 deceased pros donated their brains to science and 110 had CTE. It doesn't even have to happen in late life - Aaron Hernandez's corpse showed one of the most severe cases and he was only 27.


I have to admit that nearly all of my NFL CTE info is from Concussion and then reading some articles about Bennet Omalu. It is staggering though, and then reading how the disease manifests is utterly depressing. Based on that what Omalu uncovered you cant help but believe that to a lesser extent (as in less severe impacts, but then just as often) the same has to be true of football (Soccer).
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 03:25 PM   #23
spud_gun
Paisley
 
spud_gun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 15,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollowman View Post
The chronic traumatic encephalopathy research from former NFL players is terrifying. 111 deceased pros donated their brains to science and 110 had CTE. It doesn't even have to happen in late life - Aaron Hernandez's corpse showed one of the most severe cases and he was only 27.
CTE will be the downfall of the NFL. Not the Anthem protest or Trump.

One of the most frightening aspects to last week's Hernandez findings is that he played less than 30 games as a professional. Alot of the damage is seemingly being done in high school and college.

However comparing the NFL to football is like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm surprised that Rugby hasn't come under more scrutiny in this country. The handling of George Norths concussions should have been a watershed moment but sadly doesn't appear to have been the case.
__________________
absolute fucking monsters of mentality
spud_gun is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-17, 03:33 PM   #24
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by spud_gun View Post
CTE will be the downfall of the NFL. Not the Anthem protest or Trump.

One of the most frightening aspects to last week's Hernandez findings is that he played less than 30 games as a professional. Alot of the damage is seemingly being done in high school and college.

However comparing the NFL to football is like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm surprised that Rugby hasn't come under more scrutiny in this country. The handling of George Norths concussions should have been a watershed moment but sadly doesn't appear to have been the case.


Though it is an apt comparison the apples and oranges, ultimately if you chuck both at a wall even with different velocities and different amounts of times, both fruits will damage eventually.

Re. Rugby. There was some noise about removing tackling from the game under a specific age.

The HIA protocols are followed quite strictly now, but they are administered by the clubs, and as you say, the George North case shows how liberally they are applied depending on the player, the game and its importance. I am sure Scotland had about 3 players unable to return to the pitch in the game vs France this spring, massively frustrating at the time, but ultimately probably adding years to the players lifes.

Even last week I was reading John Barclays comments on his own recent concussion, and rehab from it. I cant imagine how many of these injuries have gone undiagnosed in the past.

Rugby has loads of issues to address and this is one of them. Throw in the multiple subs where effectively more than half the team can be replaced during the game and typically at around 60 mins a new front row come on. Meaning fatigue is being removed from the force of the tackle and the impacts are just as severe from start to finish for the guys that play the full 80.

That said, Rugby is light years ahead of where football is in terms of acknowledgement. Enforcing the protocols is where the issue lies.

(There was a Rugby doc on Dementia in Ex SRU players a few years ago by John Beattie).

Last edited by Buzzo; 13-11-17 at 05:56 PM.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-17, 11:55 AM   #25
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
New study to begin in January.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42094034
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-19, 12:55 PM   #26
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Dementia in football: Ex-players three and a half times more likely to die of condition

Former professional footballers are three and a half times more likely to die of dementia than people of the same age range in the general population, according to new research.

Experts at Glasgow University have been investigating fears that heading the ball could be linked to brain injuries.

The study began after claims that former West Brom striker Jeff Astle died because of repeated head trauma.

It compared deaths of 7,676 ex-players to 23,000 from the general population.

The sample was taken from men who played professional football in Scotland between 1900 and 1976.

However, despite the dementia risk, the study also found that playing the game increased average lifespan.

The long-awaited study was commissioned by the Football Association and the Professional Footballers' Association after delays in initial research had angered Astle's family.

It began in January last year and was led by consultant neuropathologist Dr Willie Stewart, whose report said that "risk ranged from a five-fold increase in Alzheimer's disease, through an approximately four-fold increase in motor neurone disease, to a two-fold Parkinson's disease in former professional footballers compared to population controls".

Former England international Astle developed dementia and died in 2002 at the age of 59. The inquest into his death found heading heavy leather footballs repeatedly had contributed to trauma to his brain.

But research by the FA and the PFA was later dropped because of what were said to be technical flaws.

Astle's family has campaigned for the football authorities to launch a comprehensive research programme.

His daughter Dawn said she was "relieved" the study eventually went ahead, with her father's case highlighted by former England captain Alan Shearer in a BBC documentary Alan Shearer: Dementia, Football and Me.

More to follow.
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/50124102
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-19, 01:00 PM   #27
Red_Polo
Takin' Her Easy
 
Red_Polo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,642
Shocking but not surprising. Big issue here is the applicability to today's game. Will there still be a significantly higher prevalence given fewer headers in the game with a lighter ball?
__________________
Like blood on iron
Red_Polo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-19, 01:19 PM   #28
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Yeah, I think the lighter ball will make it less of an issue than the old leather bricks. I'd also say the ball spends less time in the air than it did in football in previous decades. That said, there must still be an accumulative effect.

I think the big issue for me, baring in mind my initial post, is compensation for families who have suffered due to no fault of their own. There is a lot of money in football now, some of it needs to be making its way to the families and individuals effected.
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-10-19, 02:10 PM   #29
Kenneth
Dan Ashcroft
 
Kenneth's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 48,129
Trying to imagine the game without the head being a valid means of contacting the ball. I think you'd need a bigger pitch or less players for it to work.
__________________
VAR is utter bollocks
Kenneth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-10-19, 09:40 PM   #30
Zapater
Dalglish
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,620
No surprise, it's a fucking ball making contact with your head repeatedly which houses your brain. The velocity and torque of the ball on impact could definitely temporarily effect the brains positioning in the skull. It's pretty simple. As a boxing man, from first hand experience I can guarantee that misheading a ball can be more uncomfortable than being on the wrong end of a light jab.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red_Polo View Post
Shocking but not surprising. Big issue here is the applicability to today's game. Will there still be a significantly higher prevalence given fewer headers in the game with a lighter ball?
These newer balls are lighter, but read something about the speed of the ball is significantly higher which could actually make things worse. I think the issue is more about the repetition. If someone makes 10 headers per week in a game, it might not seem like too many. But how many headers have you made in practice? ... since you were 7 years old, or whenever you started playing.

Regardless, there's no way of getting around it. It was and is part of the game. There's nothing sinister in it, some people will no doubt have neurological issues as a result of repeated, low impact head trauma. The best thing that football can probably do is educate people and they can make the choice if they want to participate or not. The fact that millions of people around the world know the dangers of combat sports and choose to actively participate leads me to believe that nothing too significant will happen on a grand scale.
Zapater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 04:34 AM   #31
Assassin
Kloppite
 
Assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24,003
There is obviously some truth in the report. Getting hit on the head with something heavy will cause more damage than something light. I question how many players are still alive from the era of the heavy leather football? Therefore this is a moot point

Have said that. Going back to my earlier days playing. We were playing a game (not with a leather ball) a really good mate of all in the team headed a drop kick from the opposing goalie. It was a towering header. We all made our way up the pitch on the counter attack. After the attack was finished we saw our mate who headed the ball laid out in the position he headed the ball. He was lifeless, he had died on the pitch of a brain hemmoridge. Game abandoned. RIP my friend

In reality any blow to the head, especially if there is a hidden weakness in the body can have a catastrophic result
__________________
Sillyness in motion
Assassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 09:11 AM   #32
Zapater
Dalglish
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,620
Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
There is obviously some truth in the report. Getting hit on the head with something heavy will cause more damage than something light. I question how many players are still alive from the era of the heavy leather football? Therefore this is a moot point

Have said that. Going back to my earlier days playing. We were playing a game (not with a leather ball) a really good mate of all in the team headed a drop kick from the opposing goalie. It was a towering header. We all made our way up the pitch on the counter attack. After the attack was finished we saw our mate who headed the ball laid out in the position he headed the ball. He was lifeless, he had died on the pitch of a brain hemmoridge. Game abandoned. RIP my friend

In reality any blow to the head, especially if there is a hidden weakness in the body can have a catastrophic result
That's absolutely awful.

Apparently less than 1kg of pressure is sufficient to hurt someone/lose consciousness. Not sure of the exact unit/metric, PSI or newtons maybe, but that's the rough equivalent. Allegedly everyone has a different 'sweetspot' due to their physical make up and bone density etc, but usually it's somewhere on the chin/jaw area. Similar logic applies to kidneys.

Also, if you see cyclist helmets after a fall, it's the opposite side where the force is transferred where the damage is located, in most cases, not the point of impact. Without the helmet, that same damage happens to the skull/brain. There are many cases where a football travelling at great velocity is headed with the side of the head. Wonder if that ever occurs.
Zapater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 11:12 AM   #33
baitman
Daddy day care
 
baitman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 20,749
Hopefully this will also add weight to the need to have an extra substitution for head injuries.
__________________
☆☆☆☆☆☆ Champions of Europe. removing all the weak links makes us stronger

too many gutless players, no beef or desire. pussies everywhere... sack them all, but not VVD or Alisson
baitman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 11:15 AM   #34
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,287


I think if a player gets a blow to the head, the Referee should have the power to tell a manager to get that player off and sub someone else on so they can be checked.

It happens in lots of other sports.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 11:28 AM   #35
Assassin
Kloppite
 
Assassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 24,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by baitman View Post
Hopefully this will also add weight to the need to have an extra substitution for head injuries.
If this became reality, it would be used and a abused
__________________
Sillyness in motion
Assassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 11:39 AM   #36
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,287
Why is that always the argument? It doesnt get abused much in any other sport? If the Ref is in control of it and has the backup of VAR. I dont see how its bad at all really?
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 11:41 AM   #37
Alex
Administrator
 
Alex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 34,287
IMO Football needs to get serious about head injuries. Like a lot of other sports have done, or are doing.
__________________
*Except Michael, who died.
Alex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23-10-19, 12:00 PM   #38
sean_lfc
Talented Mentalist
 
sean_lfc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 5,093
I was watching a documentary on Dave Mirra, the greatest action sport athlete of all time, natural BMX superstar, who transformed and transcended the sport. He shot himself at age 41 in 2016. He had a wife and 2 daughters. It turns out he had CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a neurodegenerative disease that can lead to dementia, memory loss and depression. And apparently this is widespread in many different sports, so I thought I'd post it here. But it's basically having your head bashed in over and over again.

Theres a great interview with his wife after his death, it's a shame CTE can't be diagnosed in the living, but symptoms can be.

https://www.espn.com/action/story/_/...l-lauren-mirra
sean_lfc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-10-19, 01:01 AM   #39
Ben_Itez
Dalglish
 
Ben_Itez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,639
Quote:
Originally Posted by sean_lfc View Post
I was watching a documentary on Dave Mirra, the greatest action sport athlete of all time, natural BMX superstar, who transformed and transcended the sport. He shot himself at age 41 in 2016. He had a wife and 2 daughters. It turns out he had CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, a neurodegenerative disease that can lead to dementia, memory loss and depression. And apparently this is widespread in many different sports, so I thought I'd post it here. But it's basically having your head bashed in over and over again.

Theres a great interview with his wife after his death, it's a shame CTE can't be diagnosed in the living, but symptoms can be.

https://www.espn.com/action/story/_/...l-lauren-mirra
A really sad story. I met Dave when I was at University in North Carolina back in 1999, spent a few hours playing pool and drinking beer, he was a lovely fella. I had no idea who he was to start with but realised after a while after people kept coming up to him. Saw him around a few times afterwards and he’d always come over and say hello.

I think there’s an inherent risk with any contact sport whether it be American football, horse riding or BMX. I’m pretty sure 98% of people participating in these sports would participate even if they fully knew the risks, that doesn’t mean the relevant authorities and associations shouldn’t try and make them as safe as possible though.
__________________
'Religion is killing each other over who has the best imaginary friend'
Ben_Itez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27-10-19, 02:51 PM   #40
Buzzo
Donald Buzzworth
 
Buzzo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 34,586
Quote:
Scottish FA considers ban on children heading balls after dementia study

The Scottish FA is to consider a ban on children under 12 heading the ball, following a report linking dementia to football.

Experts at the University of Glasgow found former professional players are three and a half times more likely to die of degenerative brain disease.

Scottish football's governing body will consider a range of options after discussions with medical experts.

A ban on children heading the ball has been in place in the US since 2014x

An insider said: "The new presidential team are determined to be proactive on such a serious issue affecting the national game.

"While the study says the findings can't automatically be applied to the grassroots game, they are absolutely clear that this should not mean doing nothing in the meantime but being proactive and open to radical steps if appropriate.

"This is not just about young people heading the ball in matches but taking steps to remove repetitive heading practice in training."

A neurosurgeon said Jeff Astle died from a brain condition normally linked to boxers rather than Alzheimer's disease

Last week Dr John MacLean, the Scottish FA's chief medical consultant, told BBC Scotland he wanted to see steps taken to reduce "heading load on young players".
He said: "Through work with the Scottish FA and Uefa, what we have started to do is put together some sensible guidelines.

"Some simple things like limiting heading training for young players, perhaps to one session per week to allow the brain to recover."

Dr MacLean is part of the Uefa medical committee and has backed proposals for rugby-style temporary substitutions for concussion.

'Statement of intent'

The Scottish FA insider said its presidential team would support his expert advice on children heading balls.

"It's a clear statement of intent and whatever is considered the most appropriate by the board and the medical team should have no obstacles to implementation," they said.
The Glasgow university study was launched after claims that former West Brom strike Jeff Astle died because of repeated head trauma.

It was commissioned by the Football Association and the Professional Footballers' Association after delays in initial research angered the family of Mr Astle, who died in 2002.
His daughter, Dawn, said she was "staggered" by the findings.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-50199583
Buzzo is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  est1892 > Football > General Football

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:41 PM.


Our Current Balance versus Target. Please help us: (Donate)

Kindly Hosted By DigitalWales
Any posts remain the responsibility of the poster. Neither est1892, its Owners nor any company affiliated will be held responsible from any disputes arising from these posts. The views raised are not necessarily those held by the website or its owners.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.