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Old 06-04-20, 07:06 PM   #481
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Old 06-04-20, 07:08 PM   #482
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https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1247168815814848517
Pep Guardiola's mother dies aged 82 after contracting coronavirus
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Fucking hell Norbs, not again.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:08 PM   #483
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Owners have seen sense.

Shame on those on here who performed some extraordinary mental gymnastics in order to try and justify the original decision.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:09 PM   #484
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Owners have seen sense.

Shame on those on here who performed some extraordinary mental gymnastics in order to try and justify the original decision.
Still have no issue with it, other than the PR implications from people who do. I don't agree with the scheme, but that's a different matter.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:10 PM   #485
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Still have no issue with it, other than the PR implications from people who do.
Bully for you.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:14 PM   #486
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Still have no issue with it, other than the PR implications from people who do.
Same.

People will now of course claim their grand moral victory, whilst other companies in an even better position to cover salaries will get away with using the scheme and a much smaller number of those of rigid principle will unnecessarily expose their business to risk because they think 'should just about be ok'.

Moral means testing like this is absolute rubbish. Get the tax right, get the relief right, simple as that.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:14 PM   #487
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Owners have seen sense.

Shame on those on here who performed some extraordinary mental gymnastics in order to try and justify the original decision.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:21 PM   #488
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I dont get why they rushed to announce it, not like they are going to run out of cash this month. It could come a time down the line where every club is doing it and there is a genuine need. Putting a statement out when football is already in the headlines and under pressure was daft as fuck.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:26 PM   #489
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Same.

People will now of course claim their grand moral victory, whilst other companies in an even better position to cover salaries will get away with using the scheme and a much smaller number of those of rigid principle will unnecessarily expose their business to risk because they think 'should just about be ok'.

Moral means testing like this is absolute rubbish. Get the tax right, get the relief right, simple as that.
I get it, rally against it because it doesn't feel right etc. The amounts we were talking about were miniscule compared to cost to the Exchequer of the accounting gymnastics going on now at the end of the tax year. I bet some our deductable items would make interesting reading, but they're ok because they only bend the rules rather than break them. This scheme was open, simple and universal by design, the idea being companies could still plan and invest as normal to limit the impact on economic growth etc. I wonder what the next issue will be, maybe rich people castigated for dying on NHS ventilators when they could have gone private.

Last edited by Kenneth; 06-04-20 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:37 PM   #490
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Same.



People will now of course claim their grand moral victory, whilst other companies in an even better position to cover salaries will get away with using the scheme and a much smaller number of those of rigid principle will unnecessarily expose their business to risk because they think 'should just about be ok'.



Moral means testing like this is absolute rubbish. Get the tax right, get the relief right, simple as that.
Yep. Agreed. As I said before, I don't know how any one of us has enough information to make a judgement either way.

People just love to oversimplify things and turn everyone into heroes or villains.

There were some telling parts of the letter I'll highlight later when I get more time.
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Old 06-04-20, 07:38 PM   #491
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I dont get why they rushed to announce it, not like they are going to run out of cash this month. It could come a time down the line where every club is doing it and there is a genuine need. Putting a statement out when football is already in the headlines and under pressure was daft as fuck.
Yeah, that I definitely agree with too.
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Old 06-04-20, 08:02 PM   #492
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Still have no issue with it, other than the PR implications from people who do. I don't agree with the scheme, but that's a different matter.
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Old 06-04-20, 08:16 PM   #493
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Fucking hell Norbs, not again.
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Old 07-04-20, 02:13 AM   #494
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I'm off to listen to Crouchie....love his podcasts
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Old 08-04-20, 08:47 AM   #495
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Old 08-04-20, 08:52 AM   #496
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Just finish the season then. Why can't they make a commitment to finish behind closed doors. Do the neutral ground thing, play as many games back to back as possible and get players tested. All this unknown is not helping. Other countries are now getting back in training.
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Old 08-04-20, 12:25 PM   #497
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I don’t think any decisions can be made whilst we have a death rate climbing towards 1000 per day.

Social distancing is challenging enough without the toxic nature of sport. Throw in booze and then any big win will be accompanied by a “fuck it” as people race outside to celebrate.

There was a pissed guy in the shops with me the other day, getting more beers and he had no intention of any sort of social distancing. X that by a few thousand and you’ve got a big issue.

How we emerge from lockdown is going to be fascinating.
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Old 08-04-20, 01:06 PM   #498
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How we emerge from lockdown is going to be fascinating.
It's gunna be nuts when they open the pubs back up. After so long in lockdown everyone will be twitchy in crowds. Add in booze.....
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Old 08-04-20, 01:08 PM   #499
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It's gunna be nuts when they open the pubs back up. After so long in lockdown everyone will be twitchy in crowds. Add in booze.....
If they can survive that long. I imagine leisure facilities will be the last to open, and I do wonder how many will actually be able to last until that point.
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Old 08-04-20, 01:16 PM   #500
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Over here they're all owned by the supermarkets so will have no issues making it through. Booming industry at the moment.
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Old 08-04-20, 01:29 PM   #501
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Over here they're all owned by the supermarkets so will have no issues making it through. Booming industry at the moment.
That's a big plus for sure. Over here, I think the entertainment industry in terms of pubs, facilities is probably going to collapse.
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Old 08-04-20, 01:38 PM   #502
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It's gunna be nuts when they open the pubs back up. After so long in lockdown everyone will be twitchy in crowds. Add in booze.....
To be fair, that's always been what it's like in the UK
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Old 08-04-20, 01:44 PM   #503
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Re-open for Whit Bank Holiday Monday so we can all fuck off the pub for a full re-run of the 2005 Champions League Final
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Old 08-04-20, 02:52 PM   #504
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Old 08-04-20, 09:24 PM   #505
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Old 08-04-20, 09:27 PM   #506
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I spent too long considering why the football club would do this then realised it means the tennis!
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Old 08-04-20, 09:33 PM   #507
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Looks like players in the EPL have got together and created a fund - all releasing this statement

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Old 08-04-20, 09:39 PM   #508
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United fans I know crowing about topping this table
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Old 09-04-20, 11:50 AM   #509
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Surely this just proves that they have to finish the season, even if it means putting next season back and messing around with the football calendar for the next few years, a lot of clubs would struggle to cope with those types of losses in revenue.

We made what ~£40m profit last year, £100m loss would probably mean no real transfer signings this summer and if we are lucky just about breaking even in the next set of figures. And we're in a good financial position. Just finishing the season (even behind closed doors) halves that loss for us and reduces it even more significantly for most PL clubs. Surely it's a no-brainer, otherwise some of those clubs will be in serious trouble.
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Old 09-04-20, 03:21 PM   #510
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If we restart behind closed doors, only the matchday revenue will be lost in full. I imagine a lot of the commercial revenue is sold toward the start of the season.

Perhaps they could ppv some/all games to make up for lost revenue. Do some kind of season ticket... not sure how that would work in terms of the production... amazon would work well for me though
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Old 11-04-20, 05:27 PM   #511
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A bit late to this from the Athletic...


Liverpool had not planned to make an announcement on Saturday afternoon regarding their controversial decision to utilise the UK government’s Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme. “Our hand was forced,” one senior club source told The Athletic.

The Anfield hierarchy believe details were leaked by another Premier League club after what Liverpool understood to be confidential discussions involving top-flight sides about how they intended to handle the effects of the pandemic.

Liverpool’s plan was to wait until Monday to release their statement to ensure that every impacted employee was made aware by the club directly via letter before any public announcement was made.

Little did owners Fenway Sports Group know that the publication of a hastily constructed statement on the club website confirming that some non-playing staff had been placed on furlough would trigger a furious backlash that culminated 48 hours later in a dramatic U-turn and public apology.

In an open letter to supporters on Monday, chief executive Peter Moore said the club was “truly sorry” for coming to the “wrong conclusion” after initially deciding to furlough about 200 employees. Liverpool will no longer seek taxpayers’ money to cover 80 per cent of the wages of staff who are currently unable to work with no matches going on. They would have been claiming about £500,000 per month.

The Athletic understands principal owner John W Henry, chairman Tom Werner (both pictured top) and FSG president Mike Gordon were “shocked” by the torrent of criticism and stung by what they regard as unfair accusations of greed. During a series of conference calls on Monday, they were in full agreement that back-tracking was the best solution to limiting the damage caused by the fallout.

Gordon, who is FSG’s second biggest shareholder after Henry, runs Liverpool on a day-to-day basis and is a popular figure at both Melwod and in the club’s Chapel Street offices. The Milwaukee-born businessman, who divides his time between Merseyside and FSG’s home in Boston, has the final word on everything from sanctioning transfer deals to making senior executive appointments.

Managing director Billy Hogan and Moore answer to him and the trio spoke extensively before the initial decision to furlough was taken last week. From a business perspective, they all felt it was crucial to help ease the current cash-flow issues. All revenue streams have dried up in the current crisis but overheads remain huge and even for a club the size of Liverpool that’s a major headache.

As well as an annual wage bill of £310 million, there are payments on previous transfers due in the coming months. There’s uncertainty over whether TV money will need to be repaid and if the next instalments from global sponsors will be forthcoming given that with no games being played Liverpool are currently unable to fulfil their side of the bargain.

The Athletic has reported there are significant fears that Premier League sides may yet need to repay £762 million to broadcasters should the 2019-20 season not be completed, while the determination to finish the campaign even led to one idea of taking games to China.

The collective commitment to find a way to complete the Premier League season when it’s safe to do so is good news for Liverpool, with Jurgen Klopp’s side on the brink of sealing the title. However, just when football will return remains unclear. Mid-to-late June, with matches initially played behind closed doors, is currently regarded as the most optimistic scenario. Meanwhile, the financial toll will keep growing.

Liverpool’s latest accounts may have shown a pre-tax profit of £42 million but FSG insists those figures are almost a year old and all money generated is reinvested into the club as it constantly looks to balance the books.

There has been no public announcement but The Athletic understands more than a dozen executive staff, including Hogan, Moore and chief operating officer Andy Hughes, voluntarily took a 25 per cent pay cut last week. It was kept quiet as they didn’t want to place the players in a difficult situation as their own discussions over wage reductions continue.

As a major UK taxpayer and one of the biggest employers in the city with a staff of around 800, FSG felt it was entitled to utilise the coronavirus fund to help safeguard jobs.

Bigger companies than Liverpool FC have turned to the government for help and they currently have hundreds of operational, hospitality and catering staff who have no work to do in the continued absence of Premier League football.

Liverpool had already promised to cover the wages of casual Anfield match-day staff for the postponed games in April, which will cost them about £250,000 per match.

The club hierarchy believed criticism of their furlough decision would be mitigated by the fact that, unlike Tottenham Hotspur, they would be topping up the 80 per cent coming from the government with the remaining 20 per cent to ensure that no employee would be left out of pocket.

They were wrong. And the backlash over the weekend was so toxic that The Athletic understands a number of other Premier League clubs who had intended to announce the furloughing of staff have since decided to shelve those plans.

“That kind of thing was almost expected of Daniel Levy and Mike Ashley but you don’t expect Liverpool to go down that same route,” one Liverpool staff member, who asked to remain anonymous, told The Athletic.

“We’re always told we’re part of a family here and that working for Liverpool is different. ‘This means more’ is the marketing slogan. Surely part of that is looking after your own rather than taking government money which would be better spent elsewhere with so many businesses struggling?”

Former Liverpool players including Jamie Carragher and Stan Collymore led the fierce criticism on social media and as one FSG executive in Boston admitted “the bullets really started flying”.

The fact that it became national headline news with government ministers wading into the debate as Liverpool took a battering led to a series of urgent trans-Atlantic calls and a swift rethink. It had been a decision driven by data but the emotion it triggered hadn’t been properly considered.

Influential supporters’ union Spirit Of Shankly (SOS) submitted an open letter to Moore via email on Sunday afternoon demanding a full explanation and expressing concern for “the damage this is causing to our club’s reputation and values”.

On Monday, Moore and Tony Barrett, Liverpool’s head of club and supporter engagement, conducted a series of phone discussions with respected figures in the community. Feedback was collated and then presented to Gordon. There were three separate conversations with Joe Blott, the chair of SOS.

“It wasn’t clear at that stage that the decision would be reversed but I genuinely felt they were listening,” Blott tells The Athletic. “They wanted to gauge where the fanbase was on this. We told them it went right to the heart of the values of the club. I’m thankful we got to this position in the end but it all could have been avoided if supporters had been involved from an early stage.”

Moore also rang the Mayor of Liverpool Joe Anderson and the region’s Metro Mayor Steve Rotheram as well as local MPs Ian Byrne and Dan Carden. Byrne, a lifelong Liverpool fan, tells The Athletic: “Peter asked me what I thought and I told him that I’m in favour of using furlough if it means retaining jobs, as the overriding priority has to be that staff members get paid.

“Everyone was delighted when British Airways went into furlough as it saved jobs but the reality is that football gets judged by a different set of rules. With football clubs, there is a moral side to this.

“If Liverpool were saying, ‘We’re going to furlough for three months, we’re going to get X amount from the government and then we’re going to pay it back further down the line’ — that’s a different argument. The shame for me was that this decision has overshadowed a lot of the great work the club is doing in the local community at this difficult time.

“Football is an easy target for the government and some people are always looking for a reason to give Liverpool a knock. The club gave them an open goal on this one. It’s caused some damage but they’ve done the right thing in the end.”

Manchester City and Manchester United subsequently announced they would not be furloughing staff.

Having assessed all the feedback from Merseyside and done plenty of soul-searching, Gordon sanctioned the U-turn on Monday afternoon as he concluded there had been “a misjudgment” which needed to be reversed. He fed back to Henry and Werner. It was decided that Moore would write an open letter to fans.

There are parallels with February 2016, when FSG scrapped plans to increase ticket prices after 10,000 supporters walked out of Anfield in protest during a game against Sunderland.

On Monday, Moore wrote that Liverpool would find “alternative means” to cover wages rather than furlough during this “unprecedented period”. In the short-term that means dipping into cash reserves but concerns within the club about the impact of this crisis going forward are genuine and growing.

A glaring mistake has been rectified and the damage done has been reduced if not erased.

It’s a fine line between running Liverpool FC as a business and embracing the principles and values that the club’s supporters hold dear. After a torrid 48 hours, FSG acknowledged they fell on the wrong side of it.
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Old 13-04-20, 01:27 PM   #512
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Tottenham now u-turning on the furlough scheme too.
Going to pay their staff in full themselves.
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Old 14-04-20, 08:50 PM   #513
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Now Bournemouth joining the furlough reversal gang.
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Old 15-04-20, 10:23 AM   #514
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Too long to copy & format/paste but interesting if you've a few spare minutes.... particularly the relegation permutations

Premier League season: What should happen next? BBC pundits have their say

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52282288
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Old 15-04-20, 10:37 AM   #515
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some "experts" saying empty stadiums for 18 months
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Old 16-04-20, 06:43 PM   #516
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UEFA planning for CL final at the end of August

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52316964
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Old 16-04-20, 06:48 PM   #517
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While PL are looking at end of June for having the season done by
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52307147
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Old 16-04-20, 06:58 PM   #518
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some "experts" saying empty stadiums for 18 months
I think this is something we might have to face up to.

Clubs will find revenue by offering every game on PPV.
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Old 16-04-20, 10:31 PM   #519
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I think this is something we might have to face up to.

Clubs will find revenue by offering every game on PPV.
And we'll see all sorts of crazy kick off times to satisfy emerging markets in the far-East or USA
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Old 16-04-20, 11:19 PM   #520
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Football without fans will soon lose appeal. It's the fans that make the game. The passion, the celebrations. The players will go back to scoring, and walking back to the centre circle with perhaps a raised fist or a gentlemanly handshake like in the early 1900's.

No way I'm paying a penny to watch a game with no fans from next season. I'll happily take that to secure this title. In China the have cards with QR scans on. You can't go anywhere without one that says your virus free. We'll have to do similar here for all sporting and leisure activities.
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