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Old 29-11-20, 08:24 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by Rafa Justice View Post
The Premier league, the broadcasters and the null and voiders are playing with fire here imo.

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I wouldn’t be surprised if this isn't all building towards a breakaway of either a European league or an invitation only British Super League with clubs streaming their own matches or a league broadcaster similar to the NFL and NBA. The clubs are bigger than the pricks at Sky and BT choosing schedules, bigger than var nonsense. The dregs of the PL having an equal vote to huge clubs is laughable. They're happy suckling at the teat of the clubs that bring them their £150m a year but the snideness of null and void and 5 subs is clear for all to see.

THat's a very interesting point actually, i think you this could well push the big clubs towards a breakaway league, that takes in to consideration all competitions & not just TV company time slots. Man U, Man C, Liverpool & even Arsenals manager in recent weeks have complained about the scheduling & its impact on their team.
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Old 29-11-20, 08:56 AM   #442
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THat's a very interesting point actually, i think you this could well push the big clubs towards a breakaway league, that takes in to consideration all competitions & not just TV company time slots. Man U, Man C, Liverpool & even Arsenals manager in recent weeks have complained about the scheduling & its impact on their team.
Ultimately, they are all in it for the money. Shite like Norwich yoyo-ing up and down for the paycheck and adding sweet FA to the league is like doing an overtime shift at triple pay and spending the whole shift reading Viz on the toilet.

The big clubs aren't getting what they're worth and I can see their stance changing.
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Old 29-11-20, 09:45 AM   #443
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Salah is not offside. There is no way you can tell by eye and those lines are not perfect either, for starters the line drawn from White is coming from his foot, but to my eye (and my job is drawing in perspective every single fucking day, so my eye is pretty good) the furthest part of his body is clearly going to be his shirt sleeve as they now have it...or have they decided against that now? There is too much margin for error and they're trying to make decisions on centimetres when they know its not an exact science. Just get rid of the lines. or fuck VAR off altogether.
Regardless of any particular decision I don't believe that the system as it is used has a sufficiently small margin of error to make such tight calls. The positioning of the lines is done by eye by someone. Also the decision is based off the first frame available after the ball has been played, if they can't capture the exact moment the ball is played then in doing this they are giving the advantage to the defender (striker running in behind is going to look more offside the later this is). I have said this before but if they insist on using this method surely doing it the frame before and after the ball is played, and if offside in both then it's offside, if onside before and offside after the benefit of the doubt goes to the attacker and it's onside, not sure if this would change any of the decisions but to me is seems more compatible with the rules. Obvious downside is it takes even longer and it still doesn't address the issue of the lines and human error. The bottom line is the system is not reliable for such tight calls.
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Old 29-11-20, 10:03 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Rafa Justice View Post
The Premier league, the broadcasters and the null and voiders are playing with fire here imo.

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I wouldn’t be surprised if this isn't all building towards a breakaway of either a European league or an invitation only British Super League with clubs streaming their own matches or a league broadcaster similar to the NFL and NBA. The clubs are bigger than the pricks at Sky and BT choosing schedules, bigger than var nonsense. The dregs of the PL having an equal vote to huge clubs is laughable. They're happy suckling at the teat of the clubs that bring them their £150m a year but the snideness of null and void and 5 subs is clear for all to see.
The equal votes is a tough one for me, on paper it seems the fairest way of doing things. But clubs who have just come into the league or could find themselves relegated perhaps understandably have fairly short term interests, rather than the long term perspective. That doesn't mean that their voice shouldn't be heard. But there is a very uneven pulling power, like it or not the top clubs are the big draw, the reason that the teams at the bottom are getting so much money is because of these big sides. If the top clubs break away no TV companies would be paying billions of pounds to watch Everton - Newcastle as the big game of the season, similarly even with the league as it is those clubs would struggle to negotiate individual TV deals that come close to the share that they get now and many would be a hell of a lot worse off. That said if clubs negotiate their own deals it will destroy competition in the league 2 or 3 sides will have hugely disproportionate amounts of money and I feel even some of the sides who would benefit financially overall (e.g. Spurs) might worry about relatively being much worse off compared to the likes of us and Man Utd if we could negotiate our own deals.
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Old 29-11-20, 10:12 AM   #445
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Back to the discussion of the game yesterday, I was annoyed about the comparison of the Salah penalty against West Ham to the pen we conceded yesterday against Brighton, and the comments on MOTD comparing them. For me there are a number of differences which I'm not going into but one huge difference that (I can't believe) hasn't been mentioned, that is that Salah has control of the ball when he is fouled, Welbeck doesn't, he gets a faint touch and the ball goes away from him straight to Robertson. The foul on Salah means that he loses control of the ball, the Welbeck one he never had control of the ball, the challenge doesn't even stop him from competing for the ball with Robertson afterwards (until he laughably throws himself to the floor two seconds later)
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Old 29-11-20, 01:20 PM   #446
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Back to the discussion of the game yesterday, I was annoyed about the comparison of the Salah penalty against West Ham to the pen we conceded yesterday against Brighton, and the comments on MOTD comparing them. For me there are a number of differences which I'm not going into but one huge difference that (I can't believe) hasn't been mentioned, that is that Salah has control of the ball when he is fouled, Welbeck doesn't, he gets a faint touch and the ball goes away from him straight to Robertson. The foul on Salah means that he loses control of the ball, the Welbeck one he never had control of the ball, the challenge doesn't even stop him from competing for the ball with Robertson afterwards (until he laughably throws himself to the floor two seconds later)
That’s a fair point
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Old 29-11-20, 01:46 PM   #447
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Old 29-11-20, 01:49 PM   #448
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Back to the discussion of the game yesterday, I was annoyed about the comparison of the Salah penalty against West Ham to the pen we conceded yesterday against Brighton, and the comments on MOTD comparing them. For me there are a number of differences which I'm not going into but one huge difference that (I can't believe) hasn't been mentioned, that is that Salah has control of the ball when he is fouled, Welbeck doesn't, he gets a faint touch and the ball goes away from him straight to Robertson. The foul on Salah means that he loses control of the ball, the Welbeck one he never had control of the ball, the challenge doesn't even stop him from competing for the ball with Robertson afterwards (until he laughably throws himself to the floor two seconds later)
Wellshit is fouling Robbo just as much Robbo is fouling Wellshit. They both missed the ball and kicked each other. If anything Wellshits is worse IMO as he's coming in studs up over the top.
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Old 29-11-20, 03:29 PM   #449
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To be fair, he didn't start blaming the interviewer. Yes, I know he wasn't, and he's not a native speaker, but his phrasing was poor. Telling Kelly "congratulations" was unhelpful for a start.

As I said yesterday, Klopp is not very good at getting his arguments across clearly in post match interviews. It would be better if he didn't try.
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Old 29-11-20, 03:49 PM   #450
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Ultimately, they are all in it for the money. Shite like Norwich yoyo-ing up and down for the paycheck and adding sweet FA to the league is like doing an overtime shift at triple pay and spending the whole shift reading Viz on the toilet.

The big clubs aren't getting what they're worth and I can see their stance changing.
It is frustrating. Fulham are basically the same championship side from last year. They have obviously decided to take the money and run rather to try and invest, compete, and improve the division. Maybe a system where you only get a significant cut of revenue in your second season would help.
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Old 29-11-20, 04:07 PM   #451
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To be fair, he didn't start blaming the interviewer. Yes, I know he wasn't, and he's not a native speaker, but his phrasing was poor. Telling Kelly "congratulations" was unhelpful for a start.

As I said yesterday, Klopp is not very good at getting his arguments across clearly in post match interviews. It would be better if he didn't try.
it's the first time since Klopp has been here that I was thinking, just stop talking and walk away. Usually so balanced and articulate even if it's not his first language but he was just annoyed and needed someone to direct it at imo. He is absolutely right in what he was saying just directing it wrongly. It reminded me of Kennys last spell and the snipey interviews he used to give.
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Old 29-11-20, 04:10 PM   #452
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And perhaps you only get a vote after 2 consecutive seasons in the PL?
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Old 29-11-20, 07:02 PM   #453
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In all the hoo has we forgot about Salah's strop when coming off. Just a temporary thing?
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Old 29-11-20, 07:04 PM   #454
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I'd say Klopp went straight into him after the post-match interview and took it out on him.
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Old 29-11-20, 08:15 PM   #455
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FFS, Wellbeck. Take it the English media and Keys and Gray , etc haven't scrutinised this at all?
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Old 29-11-20, 08:21 PM   #456
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Feeling much the same. Its just shit isn't it. They're slowly strangling the life out of the game. They've taken a game full of skill, passion, craft, viveza and a bit of luck and turned it into lumpy grey gruel.



Added to the fact there are no fans at the moment so the atmosphere is zero and you don't have 40+ thousand screaming bloody murder at these incompetent refs and its just...well whats the point? Like you said.



I'd give anything for the players to just down tools and say we're the ones busting our guts out there, stop messing with the rules, get rid of it or we don't play. What are they going to do? Fuck being scared of the FA, they can fine you, but you're not going to be banned for calling out a ref if its done in the right manner. They're all way too nice. You know in the dressing room they're all going apoplectic, so why then front up to the TV camera and be all polite about it? Rip into them, politely.



In a week were we've lost one of the true football renegades, a player living life on the edge, and playing the game in a similar way. Someone that truly made you love the game, to then watch these players slowly being turned into robots is just beyond depressing.
Brilliant post mate.
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Old 29-11-20, 09:25 PM   #457
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Wellshit is fouling Robbo just as much Robbo is fouling Wellshit. They both missed the ball and kicked each other. If anything Wellshits is worse IMO as he's coming in studs up over the top.
Indeed. But whoever did the fouling (I don't think anyone did), the game is clearly broken when such an incident leads to a free shot from 12 yards. It's a totally disproportionate sanction, as are the unintentional hand balls. A penalty is supposed to be compensation for loss of a chance to score. Yesterday had absolutely nothing to do with that. Penalties are now just a shortcut to the ultimate aim of scoring a goal. Diving, like Salah, Kane, Wellbeck etc, or waiting for contact and going down, are examples of cheating, and the game is moving further and further towards rewarding such cheating, and things should be going the opposite way.
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Old 29-11-20, 10:04 PM   #458
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Indeed. But whoever did the fouling (I don't think anyone did), the game is clearly broken when such an incident leads to a free shot from 12 yards. It's a totally disproportionate sanction, as are the unintentional hand balls. A penalty is supposed to be compensation for loss of a chance to score. Yesterday had absolutely nothing to do with that. Penalties are now just a shortcut to the ultimate aim of scoring a goal. Diving, like Salah, Kane, Wellbeck etc, or waiting for contact and going down, are examples of cheating, and the game is moving further and further towards rewarding such cheating, and things should be going the opposite way.
Well put. I'd love this to be put in front of ex pros and the like to raise an actual discussion.
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Old 29-11-20, 10:11 PM   #459
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https://twitter.com/KopiteMaxi/statu...20892788908033

FFS, Wellbeck. Take it the English media and Keys and Gray , etc haven't scrutinised this at all?
Absolute cunt
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Old 29-11-20, 11:21 PM   #460
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Indeed. But whoever did the fouling (I don't think anyone did), the game is clearly broken when such an incident leads to a free shot from 12 yards. It's a totally disproportionate sanction, as are the unintentional hand balls. A penalty is supposed to be compensation for loss of a chance to score. Yesterday had absolutely nothing to do with that. Penalties are now just a shortcut to the ultimate aim of scoring a goal. Diving, like Salah, Kane, Wellbeck etc, or waiting for contact and going down, are examples of cheating, and the game is moving further and further towards rewarding such cheating, and things should be going the opposite way.
Definitely.

The game has lost sight of why penalties exist.
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Old 29-11-20, 11:28 PM   #461
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Definitely.

The game has lost sight of why penalties exist.
And also the purpose of the offside rule.
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Old 29-11-20, 11:33 PM   #462
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And also the purpose of the offside rule.
As soon as they feel the need for the ruler to come out, it should be given as onslde.
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Old 29-11-20, 11:43 PM   #463
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As soon as they feel the need for the ruler to come out, it should be given as onslde.
Yep. VAR should only get involved when there’s a clear and obvious offside, as with Mane’s yesterday.
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Old 30-11-20, 12:20 AM   #464
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Im actually impressed with how composed and polite our players all are tbh. They should've all been surrounding that ref ripping into him, but they're all nice guys. I reckon Robbo's the only one that would love a bit of a scrap and to give the ref an absolute serve.

With these ludicrous VAR decisions and with how much is on the line in some of these games we're not too far off another Di Canio moment I reckon.
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Old 30-11-20, 09:53 AM   #465
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Im actually impressed with how composed and polite our players all are tbh. They should've all been surrounding that ref ripping into him, but they're all nice guys. I reckon Robbo's the only one that would love a bit of a scrap and to give the ref an absolute serve.

With these ludicrous VAR decisions and with how much is on the line in some of these games we're not too far off another Di Canio moment I reckon.
I think the 'problem' with getting angry at the officials is you don't really know who to get angry at. VAR as a system is the problem but it's been sold as this magic system that gets decisions right. The clear and obvious stuff which was supposedly there as a safeguard has gone out of the window and because people are seemingly looking for contact in the box for a pen we are just getting stupid decisions. The one on Saturday suggests any contact in the box is a pen, which is a nonsense
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Old 30-11-20, 10:07 AM   #466
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We’ll be lucky to have a team to put out on the pitch around Christmas time. We’ve lost two players over the last few games. Robbo needs a rest, as does Gini and same can be said of Bobby and Diogo.
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Old 30-11-20, 11:43 AM   #467
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I am clinging to the hope that we can beat Ajax, get the CL qualification and group win boxed off, then put a full on reserve side out against Midtjylland giving all the senior players a day off and get a few people back from injury ahead of the Spurs game and going into the Christmas period...
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Old 30-11-20, 12:07 PM   #468
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I am clinging to the hope that we can beat Ajax, get the CL qualification and group win boxed off, then put a full on reserve side out against Midtjylland giving all the senior players a day off and get a few people back from injury ahead of the Spurs game and going into the Christmas period...
- I think we need to go strong vs Ajax. Atalanta beating us makes them need something from this game
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Old 30-11-20, 12:28 PM   #469
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I am clinging to the hope that we can beat Ajax, get the CL qualification and group win boxed off, then put a full on reserve side out against Midtjylland giving all the senior players a day off and get a few people back from injury ahead of the Spurs game and going into the Christmas period...

We’ll qualify if we beat them, but to top the group we’d need a point last day too (or for Atalanta to not beat Ajax)

If Atalanta rack up a fair few goals against midtjyland then we’d need 3 points last day to guarantee top spot...

Last weeks result really was disappointing- even a point in that and a point tomorrow would have guaranteed us top spot
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Old 30-11-20, 11:17 PM   #470
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We’ll qualify if we beat them, but to top the group we’d need a point last day too (or for Atalanta to not beat Ajax)

If Atalanta rack up a fair few goals against midtjyland then we’d need 3 points last day to guarantee top spot...

Last weeks result really was disappointing- even a point in that and a point tomorrow would have guaranteed us top spot
I forgot about Atalanta I was just looking at Ajax. If Atalanta win both of their remaining games that would mean we had to get a draw in the final game to top the group, as if we finish level on points with Atalanta it goes on head to head record, and we would come on top as we beat them 5-0 and they only beat us 2-0.
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Old 30-11-20, 11:35 PM   #471
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- I think we need to go strong vs Ajax. Atalanta beating us makes them need something from this game


There’s no choice, we can’t rotate much now with the amount of injuries.
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Old 01-12-20, 01:06 AM   #472
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I forgot about Atalanta I was just looking at Ajax. If Atalanta win both of their remaining games that would mean we had to get a draw in the final game to top the group, as if we finish level on points with Atalanta it goes on head to head record, and we would come on top as we beat them 5-0 and they only beat us 2-0.
I'd nearly be happy enough with 2nd in the group if it meant that our first teamers got a little bit of a rest - which means that they can give Spurs a good spanking.

It feels like the injuries are going to catch up with us soon.
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Old 01-12-20, 12:48 PM   #473
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Soon? I thought the injuries already overtook us.
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Old 06-12-20, 03:36 AM   #474
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Soon? I thought the injuries already overtook us.
Agree but if we hadn’t have been robbed 4 points vs Brighton & Bitters we’d be 4 points clear despite our injury nightmares
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