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Old 23-02-19, 07:51 PM   #3441
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Wales only gave away three pens all game.

Very impressive.
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Old 23-02-19, 07:55 PM   #3442
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And the first that lead to England's first points was highly dubious.
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Old 23-02-19, 07:56 PM   #3443
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Going to be insufferable if the Welsh win it
Ha ha ha unlucky mate!
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Old 23-02-19, 08:00 PM   #3444
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Wales only gave away three pens all game.

Very impressive.
Ya - Liam Williams superb in the air, I think we'll beat Italy and France and then see who has players left fit but I don't fancy us in Cardiff.

The I injuries really affected ye today - a shadow of your normal selves and France left a lot of points behind them.
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Old 23-02-19, 08:03 PM   #3445
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Ya - Liam Williams superb in the air, I think we'll beat Italy and France and then see who has players left fit but I don't fancy us in Cardiff.

The I injuries really affected ye today - a shadow of your normal selves and France left a lot of points behind them.
Was like watching a Scotland team of 5 years or so ago.

Remove Hogg and Russell and you remove our creativity.

I also think time may be up for Laidlaw. He manages the game well. He kicks well. But.

He slows the ball down too much. Without quick ball we really struggle. Ali Prices camel showed what you can do with quick ball. But Price doesnít have Laidlaws experience and game management...
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Old 23-02-19, 08:38 PM   #3446
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Was like watching a Scotland team of 5 years or so ago.

Remove Hogg and Russell and you remove our creativity.

I also think time may be up for Laidlaw. He manages the game well. He kicks well. But.

He slows the ball down too much. Without quick ball we really struggle. Ali Prices camel showed what you can do with quick ball. But Price doesnít have Laidlaws experience and game management...
When you go that deep into a squad then you lose both physicality and continuity. It showed today but maybe a few players will get the chance to come through because of the injuries.
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Old 23-02-19, 08:53 PM   #3447
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Ha ha ha unlucky mate!
I sit opposite a Welsh girl who in the pub during the France game was squeezing so hard the voice was cracking. A girl who between the screams found time to yell at the TV "I hope you die"

If Liverpool lose tomorrow I'm hitting the sick for Monday!
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Old 23-02-19, 08:55 PM   #3448
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And the first that lead to England's first points was highly dubious.
Although, to counter that, I'm fairly sure Williams spilled the ball forward in a tackle before picking up again in the build up to the first Wales try. England's fault though. List far too much territory being bullied under the high ball.
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Old 23-02-19, 10:41 PM   #3449
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Well beaten there.

In retrospect given how well he played when he came on we should have started with Hastings at 10. Also noticeable how much quicker the ball was with Ali Price at scrum half.

Nick Grigg just continually proves that he is a solid club centre but not good enough at International level.

Good win for the French, but I wonder what we might have done with the likes of Russell, Hogg and Jones and a back row with Barclay and Watson at the breakdown against that tiring French pack in the second half.

Bit of a strange game that I thought. France spent bits of it as France 2019 (bang average) but also part of it as France 1989 (absolutely electric). If Scotland had turned some pressure into points around the time that Huget was binned I think the end result would have been pretty close.

The were a few too many Scottish errors again but actually that was probably forgivable this week with so many players missing. And I agree about Ali Price, his game seems much better suited to the way Scotland want to play IMO.
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Old 23-02-19, 11:05 PM   #3450
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Injuries take their toll as you move through the 6 Nations, England showing when not at full strength they are vulnerable. I tipped Wales to win pre tournament with us and Eng at home. They are 12 wins in a row now!
Itoje and Vunipola are significant absentees but I really don't think their absence was the reason England lost today mate. (With all due credit to Wales), I'd put the defeat down to complete and utter tactical ineptness.

England's kicking game was distinctly average and repeatedly gave hard won ball back to the Welsh yet they kept doing it ad nauseam. Conversely they enjoyed significant gain line success with the ball in hand. Tuilagi got the ball about once and made 25 metres, Nowell similar.

Josh Adams aside there isn't a huge amount of pace in the Welsh back line - witness Hadley (Hadleigh Parks) treading water on the Johnny May kick chase. England didn't make nearly enough of that - May and Daly are probably in the quickest 4 or 5 backs playing the tournament but England almost never got the ball to the outside.

Eddie Jones is big on talking about leaders but if the leadership had been stronger today then maybe the decision making would have been a lot less flawed.
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Old 23-02-19, 11:08 PM   #3451
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Although, to counter that, I'm fairly sure Williams spilled the ball forward in a tackle before picking up again in the build up to the first Wales try. England's fault though. List far too much territory being bullied under the high ball.

There were three or four very obvious forward passes that Wales got away with.

The one where Adams passed the ball to Williams about 8 or 9 yards from the Welsh line could have been very costly if it had been called.
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Old 24-02-19, 10:24 AM   #3452
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Itoje and Vunipola are significant absentees but I really don't think their absence was the reason England lost today mate. (With all due credit to Wales), I'd put the defeat down to complete and utter tactical ineptness.

England's kicking game was distinctly average and repeatedly gave hard won ball back to the Welsh yet they kept doing it ad nauseam. Conversely they enjoyed significant gain line success with the ball in hand. Tuilagi got the ball about once and made 25 metres, Nowell similar.

Josh Adams aside there isn't a huge amount of pace in the Welsh back line - witness Hadley (Hadleigh Parks) treading water on the Johnny May kick chase. England didn't make nearly enough of that - May and Daly are probably in the quickest 4 or 5 backs playing the tournament but England almost never got the ball to the outside.

Eddie Jones is big on talking about leaders but if the leadership had been stronger today then maybe the decision making would have been a lot less flawed.
The injuries weren’t the only reason but they didn’t help - you lost the tactical battle as you say. The same as you won it vs us.

Pre game over here they showed the tweaks you made to beat the rush defence (2 men tackles and not committing to the rucks) and how effective it was against us and France. The 6 Nations is so unpredictable and as I said Wales were ranked 3 in the World pre tournament with Eng and Irl at home having won 10 games in a row......they were completely ignored.

Fancy they’ll do the grand slam now.
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Old 24-02-19, 11:30 AM   #3453
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The Six nations is so unforgiving, it doesn’t need to go all that badly for the tournament to be lost.

Wales have also probably had the best luck with injuries.

One thing, and this is a sport in general point as well, the media feeds this triumph/disaster narrative. Every defeat is a disaster every victory is the best in history. The 6 Ns is an unforgiving tournament where you have to take your beatings and regroup. Look at England, they looked in control of that game until 60mins when an over reliance of the boot and a bit of ill discipline took the game away from them. Lost without really playing all that badly.

One thing I admire with the current Welsh set up is the unity and how they play to the strengths of the individuals they have within the team. Parkes is the new battering ram (Roberts) and then you have gifted backs in Williams and Davies and a strong runner in North. Their pack is well drilled.

I also think that Gatland gained valuable insight into the Irish and English during his time as Likns coach where he also helped forge the future unity of his Welsh players. He is a sharp coach though, even if he does come across as a monumental smug wanker.

They’ve every chance of a Slam.

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Old 24-02-19, 05:48 PM   #3454
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As bad an Ireland performance as I’ve seen in years - our line out malfunctioned and the players we brought in didn’t take the chance.

All in all a MEH day.
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Old 24-02-19, 06:25 PM   #3455
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Seems everyone except the Welsh have things to work on ahead of the World Cup.

That opening game between us and you lot could be a belter. Hope both teams are at full strength.
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Old 24-02-19, 06:41 PM   #3456
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Seems everyone except the Welsh have things to work on ahead of the World Cup.

That opening game between us and you lot could be a belter. Hope both teams are at full strength.
I hope you have the same level of injuries as you have now and we smash you

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Old 24-02-19, 08:07 PM   #3457
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I’m being magnanimous.

What I think privately....
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Old 25-02-19, 12:15 AM   #3458
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Seems everyone except the Welsh have things to work on ahead of the World Cup.

That opening game between us and you lot could be a belter. Hope both teams are at full strength.
Dunno. We're still a bit try shy.

Plus we could do with Rhys Webb getting a transfer.
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Old 26-02-19, 09:38 AM   #3459
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30 cap eligibility rule for SA players scrapped over the weekend. I see several players have been snapped up and will be heading to Europe at the end of the Super Rugby season. Will probably kill franchise rugby here, but no doubt inevitable and probably necessary given economical matters.

What did you guys make of Robert du Preez's spell at Sale? He's considered a pretty dull player in SA, but his consistency and tactical kicking probably makes him a definite Bok candidate for the 10 jersey moving forward.

The other player that seems to be doing quite well who hasn't been in consideration is Cobus Reinach. Always a bit up and down, but great acceleration and heart. Him, Faf and Papier would leave scrum half well covered.
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Old 27-02-19, 06:51 PM   #3460
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Del - wrong thread.

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Old 28-02-19, 10:25 AM   #3461
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Good thread on some of the objections to the proposed World League - this would seriously impact on the 6 nations a couple of months later.

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Old 28-02-19, 02:14 PM   #3462
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I’ll read that later.

I can see the appeal of this... but....

It solves none of the issues. Elite players will ultimately play more matches.

It doesn’t assist Club Rugby at all.

It shuts the door forever in nations such as Georgia, and it slightly devalues the World Cup.

Other than that though
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Old 28-02-19, 05:55 PM   #3463
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Iíll read that later.

I can see the appeal of this... but....

It solves none of the issues. Elite players will ultimately play more matches.

It doesnít assist Club Rugby at all.

It shuts the door forever in nations such as Georgia, and it slightly devalues the World Cup.

Other than that though
lots of negativity from players for many reasons, itís all about the money!!
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Old 01-03-19, 12:33 AM   #3464
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I despise it. Kills the magic of touring.
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Old 01-03-19, 12:42 PM   #3465
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It is an utterly flawed idea.

A decent article below from Tom English (an Irishman who works for BBC Scotland!).

Couldn't answer your Q's above about the SA guys in the Premiership Zap, I don't really watch the English Prem teams outside of the Champions cup

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Financiers instead of flankers - the latest fight at rugby's breakdown

By Tom English

BBC Scotland

Rugby in both Australia and Argentina has significant financial problems
It's sometimes easy to forget that, as a professional sport, rugby is still a child, still in nappies and uncertain on its feet.

It's growing, of course, but it's getting costlier as a consequence. The question that all unions around the world have been asking in recent times is how on earth we can afford to keep going the way we are with so many mouths to feed and only a finite amount of money to feed them with.

Rugby is at a fascinating point in its development. On the pitch, there are myriad issues about the state of the product and the startling casualty rate it produces. Off the field, the conundrum is largely about money and the growing desperation for it in order to keep in line with soaring wage inflation.

'World Rugby plans harmful to player welfare'
World Rugby, the governing body, and Agustin Pichot, its vice-chairman, came with up with a plan for a World League that would generate more money for all involved. A TV company was lined up to pay for the rights. Mark Dodson, the chief executive of Scottish Rugby, said a few weeks ago that talks are just at the "foothills" stage and that so much more detail needed to be known before any theory became reality.

You can imagine Dodson's - but not just Dodson's - surprise at breakfast time on Thursday when news broke, via the New Zealand Herald, that the World League had been as good as finalised and that it was set to start next year. The sound of corn flakes being spat out would have reverberated around the northern hemisphere game.

'Pichot looked like his trousers had caught fire'
Pichot has been doing some fire-fighting ever since. As reported, the League was going to exclude the Pacific Island nations and Georgia for 12 years - and as somebody whose mission is supposed to be about growing the game, Pichot took a ferocious kicking for that. His plan was also going to add more high-intensity games to an already crazily-packed calendar and some of the stellar figures of the sport reacted quickly to slam it to the high heavens.

Johnny Sexton of Ireland, Kieran Read of New Zealand and Owen Farrell of England all dismantled the notion that the body supposedly looking out for player welfare - their oft-stated mantra - could keep a straight face while finalising a vision that piled more Tests on players who are already creaking under a burden of big games.

Pichot went on Twitter to shoot down elements of the published report. Nothing had been agreed, he said. He didn't want to cut the Pacific Islands and Georgia out of the loop. He wanted two tiers of 12 nations in each tier with promotion and relegation offering everybody a fair crack at the top league. No, he wasn't ignoring player welfare. No, no, no.

After a while, Pichot resembled a man whose trousers had just caught fire. He seemed to suggest that he thought his plan will not come to fruition at all. He's probably got that one right at least.

'The problem is always about money'
There's a fascinating battle going on in rugby right now and it's got a whole lot more to do with suits instead of centres and financiers instead of flankers. There's the game on the field and there's the money game off the field and both of them are hard-fought in their own way.

The politics are intriguing. The Southern Hemisphere unions - Australia, Argentina, New Zealand and to a lesser extent South Africa - are struggling financially. Australia and Argentina are especially worrying cases.

A great Puma scrum-half in his day, Pichot's plan involved aggregating TV revenues between the Six Nations, the Rugby Championship, plus supposedly exploitable markets in the two other teams that had been slated for Tier One - Japan and the USA. All the lucre would be in one big pool and every country would play each other once a year with play-offs and a grand final to round it off.

In the north, there wasn't a whole lot of truck for this idea. There were issues like player welfare, and concerns about the World Cup being devalued - Pichot's plan had it that a world champion would be crowned at the end of every season except in a World Cup year - and a possible threat to Lions tours.

The Six Nations is utterly opposed to promotion and relegation and that's another nail in the proposed tournament. The way rugby politics works, these things could, in theory, be overcome. The main problem is about - and always will be about - money.

The way the north see it, the World League is a bad financial deal for them. They'd be bringing more TV money to the table but would only get the same share as the other six. How is that fair or appealing? It would be good news for Australia and Argentina, but northern hemisphere money going south is never going to work. "If you think we're going to fall for this then you have another thing coming," was the gist.

'Rugby is changing before our eyes'
To some, who are against the idea, it is an attempt to save struggling Southern Hemisphere unions with northern hemisphere cash. Also, it's an attempt to maintain World Rugby's commercial relevance in a fast-changing landscape.

World Rugby know that the Six Nations are exploring an idea that would see them pool their own TV revenues for the first time for their championship and autumn internationals. They've even got a name for the concept - Project Light. They're on the lookout for 'partners'. If that deal comes to pass then a World League is dead in the water and the financial problems of Australia and Argentina, in particular, carry on.

The game is altering in front of our eyes. Dodson talks about a changed financial picture in the sport. The driver was the private equity firm CVC Capital Partners, who last year paid more than £200m for a 27% share of Premier Rugby Limited (PRL), the governing body of the top division in England.

Now everybody is looking for the next CVC. Money has never been more needed and more talked about.

"Investors are interested in our game at multiple levels," says Dodson. "The PRL deal was like a new herald for the sport in many ways. What you found was a major finance house that saw latent value in rugby. I've been in this space for two years and it's clear to me that sports financiers around the world have come to this space as well.

"You can be frightened of it or you can embrace it. You can say, 'My goodness, £200m going into the English Premiership is going to cause us problems' or you can ask, 'If they can do it down there then what is the value of our Pro14?' It's very interesting. I said this day would come and it's here.

"These equity firms see untapped value in rugby. The game is being seen in a different way than before. A growing game needs more cash as a buffer against annual inflation. The PRL did a deal - good luck to them - and I'm hoping that we [Pro14] are next. We're at the foothills, but watch this space."

Dodson wouldn't be drawn on the mooted World League, but others say that unless the finances get recalibrated then it's not going to happen. Even Pichot didn't seem at all optimistic on social media.

Rather than being a tournament on the way in, it looks like a tournament on the brink. The money question will continue, though. The search for more cash to support an increasingly expensive sport will continue, phase after phase after phase.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/47408903
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Old 03-03-19, 12:40 PM   #3466
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1990

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Scotlandís national rugby union side claimed a famous victory at Murrayfield, winning the Calcutta Cup, the Triple Crown, the Grand Slam and the Five Nations Championship by beating England 13Ė7.

It was the first time Flower of Scotland, by the Corries, was sung by the players as a pre-match anthem.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/art...peaked-in-1990

I didn't know this (in bold).
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Old 03-03-19, 02:07 PM   #3467
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Yeah, it’s a relatively new song.

Scotland the Brave used to be the anthem for football and it is shite, plus it doesn’t have lyrics.

I think there were attempts at introducing God Save the Queen - which didn’t go down particularly well
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Old 03-03-19, 02:21 PM   #3468
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God Save the Queen
What an absolutely fucking terrible anthem it is. Utterly unsuited to modern England, let alone Britain.
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Old 03-03-19, 02:24 PM   #3469
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What did you guys make of Robert du Preez's spell at Sale? He's considered a pretty dull player in SA, but his consistency and tactical kicking probably makes him a definite Bok candidate for the 10 jersey moving forward.

The other player that seems to be doing quite well who hasn't been in consideration is Cobus Reinach. Always a bit up and down, but great acceleration and heart. Him, Faf and Papier would leave scrum half well covered.

I thought he did pretty well from the games I saw.

To some extent consistency and kicking fitted in well in the Sale back line given there's Faf, Ashton, Solomona and O'Connor to provide the flair.

I like Reinach - probably more than Faf who comes across as being a bit up his own arse and he's also looked good for Northampton. Hougaard's another one who's impressed at 9, although I think I read he'd retired from International rugby a little while back(?).
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Old 03-03-19, 02:24 PM   #3470
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What an absolutely fucking terrible anthem it is. Utterly unsuited to modern England, let alone Britain.


Dunno which percentage of god fearing royalists it is supposed to appeal to? And any expectation for a song about the Queen to stick up here is incredibly naive.

BTW.

For anyone interested, there is a great Sam Warburton documentary on iPlayer just now.
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Old 03-03-19, 02:26 PM   #3471
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What an absolutely fucking terrible anthem it is. Utterly unsuited to modern England, let alone Britain.

I'm not a huge fan but equally I wouldn't be inclined to change it. It's a bit banana republic to go swapping the anthem every 5 minutes.

And F of S is only the "sports" anthem so far as I'm aware Buzzo or does it get wheeled out on other occasions?
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Old 03-03-19, 02:27 PM   #3472
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Dunno which percentage of god fearing royalists it is supposed to appeal to? And any expectation for a song about the Queen to stick up here is incredibly naive.

BTW.

For anyone interested, there is a great Sam Warburton documentary on iPlayer just now.


On the watch list, looks good!
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Old 03-03-19, 02:31 PM   #3473
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I don't seem to have posted on the world league but agree it's a daft idea, insulting to the pacific islands and dangerous to the players. I read that the PI's were threatening to boycott this year's world cup yesterday and good on them for that.
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Old 03-03-19, 02:31 PM   #3474
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And F of S is only the "sports" anthem so far as I'm aware Buzzo or does it get wheeled out on other occasions?


The football team also took it on in the late 90ís.

But it is as you say an Ďunofficialí anthem due to its antagonistic lyrics. I donít think there is an official one? Unless it is still Scotland the Brave
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Old 03-03-19, 02:42 PM   #3475
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I'm not a huge fan but equally I wouldn't be inclined to change it. It's a bit banana republic to go swapping the anthem every 5 minutes.



And F of S is only the "sports" anthem so far as I'm aware Buzzo or does it get wheeled out on other occasions?
There isn't an official one other than at state level unless I'm mistaken - so the UK and GSTQ.

Difficult to change and get it right but an anthem depending on religion and monarchy is ridiculously out of step with society.
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Old 03-03-19, 03:23 PM   #3476
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There isn't an official one other than at state level unless I'm mistaken - so the UK and GSTQ.

Difficult to change and get it right but an anthem depending on religion and monarchy is ridiculously out of step with society.

I should imagine that lots of the world's anthems are no longer relevant; the German one includes "Germany above all . . above all in the world" (albeit I don't think they often sing that bit any more ), the French one talks about slitting people's throats.

Britain is still (notionally) a Christian country, so asking the good Lord to keep an eye on the Monarch doesn't seem especially outlandish, even 275 years on IMO. The tune's shit though.
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Old 03-03-19, 03:24 PM   #3477
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The football team also took it on in the late 90ís.

But it is as you say an Ďunofficialí anthem due to its antagonistic lyrics. I donít think there is an official one? Unless it is still Scotland the Brave

F of S is exactly what you need to get a crowd going before a game, that and Land of our Fathers.
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Old 03-03-19, 04:47 PM   #3478
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I thought he did pretty well from the games I saw.

To some extent consistency and kicking fitted in well in the Sale back line given there's Faf, Ashton, Solomona and O'Connor to provide the flair.

I like Reinach - probably more than Faf who comes across as being a bit up his own arse and he's also looked good for Northampton. Hougaard's another one who's impressed at 9, although I think I read he'd retired from International rugby a little while back(?).
Thanks. Didn't catch any games this weekend, but he's had a decent start to this Super Rugby campaign.

I understand Hougaard has done quite well there, but he's always been largely shit domestically and internationally here. We all thought he was going to be the next Fourie du Preez, but his best rugby has always come from the wing. At scrumhalf he's never performed. Always promised to be something but it never came, retired for a year or so anyway, so doesn't really matter. On the subject of arrogant pricks, he's definitely one of them. I also think his involvement in the Oscar trial effected him on and off the pitch, if he's doing well away from SA, good for him, because I doubt it would have ever really worked out for him. Hype job.

On the subject of O'Connor, I think it's a pity how things panned out for him. Should be one of the best backs in the world. Could easily have gotten well over 100 caps for Australia. Him and Frans Steyn frustrate me greatly, they have to take some blame, but their unions/coaches could have handled both so much better.

Last edited by Zapater; 03-03-19 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 03-03-19, 05:12 PM   #3479
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F of S is exactly what you need to get a crowd going before a game, that and Land of our Fathers.
Definitely

Been getting louder and louder over the last 4-5 years also.

I love the anthems, but God save the Queen is easily the worst. No passion at all in it.
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Old 03-03-19, 05:39 PM   #3480
Cormack74
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Thanks. Didn't catch any games this weekend, but he's had a decent start to this Super Rugby campaign.

I understand Hougaard has done quite well there, but he's always been largely shit domestically and internationally here. We all thought he was going to be the next Fourie du Preez, but his best rugby has always come from the wing. At scrumhalf he's never performed. Always promised to be something but it never came, retired for a year or so anyway, so doesn't really matter. On the subject of arrogant pricks, he's definitely one of them. I also think his involvement in the Oscar trial effected him on and off the pitch, if he's doing well away from SA, good for him, because I doubt it would have ever really worked out for him. Hype job.

On the subject of O'Connor, I think it's a pity how things panned out for him. Should be one of the best backs in the world. Could easily have gotten well over 100 caps for Australia. Him and Frans Steyn frustrate me greatly, they have to take some blame, but their unions/coaches could have handled both so much better.

Blimey I didn't know he was (previously) involved with Reeva and might have texted her on the night of her murder until I wiki'd him just now

With Worcester he was sensational when he joined towards the end of the 2015/16 season. Unless it was coincidence; he basically saved them from relegation. They won 5 games out of 8 with him in the team having previously won only 2 all season.

(He) They haven't been as good since although I have a feeling he only played about 50% of last season's games and possibly about the same this time round.

O'Connor has properly lost his mojo. I've seen him perform well for Sale but he's not at the level he was - he's not even at the level he was when he came and played for London Irish a couple of season's back. Even then there was pretty much a collective intake of breath every time he got the ball. It's sad . . . but given that he's an Aussie, not as sad as it might be
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