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Old 27-11-21, 01:31 PM   #9201
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It's strange you mentioned this now, I was just watching some Benvenuti archives the other day myself. On the list, hard to argue with a lot of that, there are other names which could have been added and not overly contested too. Good call on Cerdan btw his footage looks great. Seemed a distinguished man too.

The one which may be the hardest to call is the 90s because so many good fighters went between divisions, I think that Toney was possibly the best of them, again spent a lot of time at light middle and super middle too. On paper, I would have to give it to Hopkins though purely because he spent the majority of the decade at the weight and won almost all of the fights, having a larger volume of competitors. Although there are some key names missing unfortunately.

This may sound a little controversial but in some ways I like to think Julian Jackson may have been the best. It's strange how history has kind of forgotten him. Not the cleanest technician, just dominating and would do whatever he wanted in there; take two to land one, switch hit, punching through defences and so on. Fair enough, he got sparked by McClellan twice, but I think that's one of the rare cases where when 2 power punchers get in together. It happened at a lower weight but taking that onslaught from Terry Norris then stopping him was very special.

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Do look into the fighters of the 1940s and the ones from the 1930s and 1920s as well. Some of the middleweights and heavyweights from those eras have amazing life stories along with their in ring exploits. Have built up a stupid collection of biographies etc of fighters from those eras and over the years have digested a silly amount of information on them at times.
I've fallen down the rabbit hole of digesting as much material as possible from the middleweights in the 50s and 60s - their lives were incredible. I think I commented in here that you could write a movie script about half of the division. Incredible stories. Even some of the fringe contenders had great stories because of their playboy lifestyles or/and mob ties. The stuff of legend.

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That's a sound list! All those fighters would have done at least 50 matches before being considered for a shot at the championship or retiring... insane! Nowadays, it's at least 10 matches before having a shot at titles then retiring with a few bob.
Hard to compare, really difficult to fight actively with all the promotional bullshit and television scheduling. I know it's not the same, but in most cases, the guys getting the shots really early is because of their pro level amateur pedigree. I don't really care what happens in the amateurs, but it's obvious Sugar Ray Leonard (never fought a 4 rounder), Golovkin, Usyk etc. should be respected and have proven their quality without "earning it" by slogging away.

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Up to people what lists they make really or if people wanted to do something different list wise. But given you are the only person to reply it would appear lists or discussing fighters from other eras is not going anywhere


And yeah I post on some boxing forums and have for years. I use a very different user name though I have noticed who from here posts elsewhere as some use the exact same posts on RAWK and on dedicated boxing forums.
I'm looking forward in anticipation for the welterweight list I'm of the opinion that the best welterweight is generally the best fighting man in the game P4P. It's not always ring 100% true, but it's never far from the truth. I would also like a lightweight summary, the finest of margins would separate some of the top contenders.

I generally steer clear of boxing forums, there is a certain level of pretentiousness among contributors and so much immaturity around perceptions around individuals preferred or non-preferred boxers. It gets a bit tiresome for me.

I hope it's not me because that would mean someone's copy and pasting my posts as I'm definitely not on there, or any other forum for that matter
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Old 27-11-21, 02:05 PM   #9202
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Fair enough, he got sparked by McClellan twice, but I think that's one of the rare cases where when 2 power punchers get in together.
Just read that back - it should say that it's one of the rare cases where two power punches meet, it usually favours the one with the less power (And usually more developed skills), in this case McClellan.
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Old 27-11-21, 03:10 PM   #9203
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It's strange you mentioned this now, I was just watching some Benvenuti archives the other day myself. On the list, hard to argue with a lot of that, there are other names which could have been added and not overly contested too. Good call on Cerdan btw his footage looks great. Seemed a distinguished man too.

The one which may be the hardest to call is the 90s because so many good fighters went between divisions, I think that Toney was possibly the best of them, again spent a lot of time at light middle and super middle too. On paper, I would have to give it to Hopkins though purely because he spent the majority of the decade at the weight and won almost all of the fights, having a larger volume of competitors. Although there are some key names missing unfortunately.

This may sound a little controversial but in some ways I like to think Julian Jackson may have been the best. It's strange how history has kind of forgotten him. Not the cleanest technician, just dominating and would do whatever he wanted in there; take two to land one, switch hit, punching through defences and so on. Fair enough, he got sparked by McClellan twice, but I think that's one of the rare cases where when 2 power punchers get in together. It happened at a lower weight but taking that onslaught from Terry Norris then stopping him was very special.



I've fallen down the rabbit hole of digesting as much material as possible from the middleweights in the 50s and 60s - their lives were incredible. I think I commented in here that you could write a movie script about half of the division. Incredible stories. Even some of the fringe contenders had great stories because of their playboy lifestyles or/and mob ties. The stuff of legend.



Hard to compare, really difficult to fight actively with all the promotional bullshit and television scheduling. I know it's not the same, but in most cases, the guys getting the shots really early is because of their pro level amateur pedigree. I don't really care what happens in the amateurs, but it's obvious Sugar Ray Leonard (never fought a 4 rounder), Golovkin, Usyk etc. should be respected and have proven their quality without "earning it" by slogging away.



I'm looking forward in anticipation for the welterweight list I'm of the opinion that the best welterweight is generally the best fighting man in the game P4P. It's not always ring 100% true, but it's never far from the truth. I would also like a lightweight summary, the finest of margins would separate some of the top contenders.

I generally steer clear of boxing forums, there is a certain level of pretentiousness among contributors and so much immaturity around perceptions around individuals preferred or non-preferred boxers. It gets a bit tiresome for me.

I hope it's not me because that would mean someone's copy and pasting my posts as I'm definitely not on there, or any other forum for that matter






Love reading your posts on boxing, Zap.


Re Julian Jackson. He did make my short list. I really rated him back in the day and he was a great boxer to watch be it for the spectacle and also to watch him from an ability pov.

I think he is very underrated at times and as well as having great power, he was a good ring general and was a brave fighter.


Hopkins almost was my 1990s pick, but as the 200s were a bit sparse and as he beat good names then, I moved him to the 2000s and went for Toney for the 1990s based purely in Toney's ability.



The 1950s/60s have some amazing stories between them. I do suggest moving into the 1920s/30s/40s and looking at the heavies and middles from those eras. The life stories get even wilder and even more film worthy.



Totally agree on the welter comment regarding P4P as well. I am very much of the same school that generally regards the best welter as the best p4p. Only division, when strong, that gives it a genuine challenge for being the best division for spawning the P4P king is the middleweight one imo.

For me the welterweights and middleweights have always produced the best and truest all rounders in the sport over the decades and they are the two divisions where you need world class skills along with world class physical gifts to be the true best in.


A Welter list I will pop up in the coming days probably but would love to see some lists from others as well just to get a feel for what others rate in fighters or who they regard as their bests.


Heavies I was tempted to do as well as it is really tough to pick just one heavy from a number of decades and still be totally confident of your pick. For example Lennox Lewis, who I think could be argued as being the best heavy of all time, certainly in the top three, would not be my pick for the 1990s. I'll see your your Julian Jackson controversial comment and raise you my Lennox Lewis one


Lightweights I might not do as I would end up leaving out a few decades as my knowledge of lightweights is probably spread a lot more thin than my knowledge of the heavies, light heavies, super Mid, Mids, and Welters.
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Old 28-11-21, 07:38 AM   #9204
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Great fight night - first off respect to Fuzile in the undercard, got roughed up a bit unfortunately fell just short. I know of one or two people in his promotional circle, so really wanted him to pull through, it's unlucky. He's a great fighter skillwise, just falls a bit short when it gets dirty and has to fight in the trenches. I guess that's the problem with fighting at world level without that experience. Only 17 fights, mainly at home in small arenas. I'd have had him packing out casinos in Johannesburg before taking him Stateside but it was probably difficult with COVID restrictions. I think he can be a top fighter, he just needs to keep going and get more experience under his belt. Going from small venues in South Africa to the Garden can't be easy for a young man. Fair play to Ogawa though, fought hard, landed some massive shots and deserved his win, those two knockdowns in the late rounds proved pivotal in the scorecards.

On the main event, great fight. I know it's simplistic, but Lopez made it hard for himself and can only blame himself. It's boxing basics and who am I to say, but how could he go in there only looking for the knockout? With his size advantage and heavy hands, he should have gotten Kambosos out of there routinely. You could see the weight behind his punches when they landed, but even his jab was way too loaded and he neglected body work altogether. Lopez has a good jab and I believe that he would have won if he stuck with it. Rushing in and getting put on his pants in the first round had him chasing the fight from the start, it was a flash knockdown but that doesn't matter on the scorecards. I had it even going into the last and thought Kambosos won the last round having him shade the fight, could have gone either way but I have no concerns with the decision and think the judges got it right (wow, did I just say that?). Lastly, I thought he missed a trick by not going for the stoppage after dropping Kambosos. The ref was having a good look at him and he wasn't 100% steady. I think overwhelming him with a barrage could have been enough, had a feeling he was looking for a highlight reel stoppage and allowed Kambosos to recover. Although Lopez may have been gassed and could have been worried about a counter, either way seemed a little odd.

Kambosos fought really well, his conditioning is mega and he's well schooled. I've found him a bit insufferable in the past but fair play. Lopez' flat footed approach helped with this, however his counterpunching and sharpness needs to be commended. He was brave and active and it paid off. Even though his shots weren't doing a lot of damage a lot of time, there was a right hand and an uppercut which definitely got Lopez attention in the middle rounds. The constant threat of the counterhook also stopped him from getting rushed because the threat was always there.

Huge achievement getting the win in NY, I'm confident that Lopez would win the rematch, but it looks like he's interested in moving up. Maybe he is a bit too big for the weight, still his tactics and mentality didn't help him for this one. Definitely in denial thinking he won 9 rounds to 2. He needs to rewatch the fight, look at the state of his face and face reality, even some of his own fans were booing him after those comments. I don't think his dad helps him at all, he's in there to play a character, he needs a proper coach. I actually think he's worse than Angel Garcia, which is saying something.

Also, have to retract my comments a few months ago about the schedule of boxing being uninspiring. I've got to say that there have actually been some really good fights these last few months which I've really enjoyed. It's always been the fights that make boxing, there will always be great fighters, but when some divisions are a little lean, like now, it relies on the heart and commitment to make entertainment. And I think we've seen quite a lot of that recently. Devin Haney and Gervonta Davis also in action next week with Lomachenko, Golovkin Donnaire, Bivol and Beterbiev vs Browne (I'm looking forward to this one) before the year is out - so definitely some entertainment left.
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Old 28-11-21, 07:51 AM   #9205
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Love reading your posts on boxing, Zap.


Re Julian Jackson. He did make my short list. I really rated him back in the day and he was a great boxer to watch be it for the spectacle and also to watch him from an ability pov.

I think he is very underrated at times and as well as having great power, he was a good ring general and was a brave fighter.


Hopkins almost was my 1990s pick, but as the 200s were a bit sparse and as he beat good names then, I moved him to the 2000s and went for Toney for the 1990s based purely in Toney's ability.



The 1950s/60s have some amazing stories between them. I do suggest moving into the 1920s/30s/40s and looking at the heavies and middles from those eras. The life stories get even wilder and even more film worthy.



Totally agree on the welter comment regarding P4P as well. I am very much of the same school that generally regards the best welter as the best p4p. Only division, when strong, that gives it a genuine challenge for being the best division for spawning the P4P king is the middleweight one imo.

For me the welterweights and middleweights have always produced the best and truest all rounders in the sport over the decades and they are the two divisions where you need world class skills along with world class physical gifts to be the true best in.


A Welter list I will pop up in the coming days probably but would love to see some lists from others as well just to get a feel for what others rate in fighters or who they regard as their bests.


Heavies I was tempted to do as well as it is really tough to pick just one heavy from a number of decades and still be totally confident of your pick. For example Lennox Lewis, who I think could be argued as being the best heavy of all time, certainly in the top three, would not be my pick for the 1990s. I'll see your your Julian Jackson controversial comment and raise you my Lennox Lewis one


Lightweights I might not do as I would end up leaving out a few decades as my knowledge of lightweights is probably spread a lot more thin than my knowledge of the heavies, light heavies, super Mid, Mids, and Welters.
Right back at you.

Jackson is an awkward one because he beat some real top fighters at light middle and middle, sometimes in devastating fashion, but he mainly fought on undercards. It's ridiculous. I agree that his boxing ability is underrated, he tactically took a lot to wear guys down and was still on control of the greater fight despite occasionally looking awkward.

I think the fight that really puts Toney there is knocking out a prime, undefeated Michael Nunn; who was also a great fighter. Pulling out that stoppage after losing the entire fight is a rare skill. Wearing down your opponent while losing the rounds, which is usually reserved for pressure fighters.

Last edited by Zapater; 28-11-21 at 07:53 AM.
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Old 28-11-21, 10:17 AM   #9206
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Performance from Kambososl this morning.

Lopez bought his own hype? Struggled with the weight?
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Old 28-11-21, 12:39 PM   #9207
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Right back at you.

Jackson is an awkward one because he beat some real top fighters at light middle and middle, sometimes in devastating fashion, but he mainly fought on undercards. It's ridiculous. I agree that his boxing ability is underrated, he tactically took a lot to wear guys down and was still on control of the greater fight despite occasionally looking awkward.

I think the fight that really puts Toney there is knocking out a prime, undefeated Michael Nunn; who was also a great fighter. Pulling out that stoppage after losing the entire fight is a rare skill. Wearing down your opponent while losing the rounds, which is usually reserved for pressure fighters.

Main reason why I went for Toney over Jackson was I asked myself who did I think would win if they had a trilogy and in my head Toney would win three times. The awkward style thing never bothers me though. Look at guys like Tommy Hearns. He was often not the smoothest mover at times, yet I do not think there is any doubt about his ability.

Great comment on Toney's defensive game there too. Rarely seen people mention how his defensive game actually broke fighters down. Normally the plaudits are reserved for how good his defensive style was (and it really was world class) but he did something althogether different to most boxers who had a wold class defence. He somehow managed to flip the old adage of how the best defence is a good offence and makes the best offence a great defence.
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Old 29-11-21, 02:06 PM   #9208
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Kell Brook v Amir Khan confirmed for Manchester in Feb
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Old 29-11-21, 02:20 PM   #9209
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Kell Brook v Amir Khan confirmed for Manchester in Feb


At this stage in their careers it is as much of a joke as the likes of Tyson etc going back into the ring or the Youtube bums.


Having said that, If Conor McGregor or Tyson want a scrap and will pay me a million for it, then I would fight either of them inside a wardrobe.


Fuck it for a million quid I would go in with Fury and flop like a fish.
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Old 29-11-21, 02:21 PM   #9210
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Ppv?
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Old 29-11-21, 02:28 PM   #9211
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Kell Brook v Amir Khan confirmed for Manchester in Feb
Such a shame its now, I will watch it for sure, but its a fight to prove who is washed up the least , Not who is the best
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Old 29-11-21, 02:29 PM   #9212
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Fuck me, it is PPV
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Old 29-11-21, 02:30 PM   #9213
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Can't believe Lopez's dad is as deluded as his son, Watched that fight Sunday Morning and there was only 1 winner, They reckoned he won 10-2
Going after Taylor now, Not going for a rematch
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Old 29-11-21, 02:34 PM   #9214
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Fuck me, it is PPV
Incredible

I will watch it cos I get PPV events for nowt, but would I fuck pay for it
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Old 29-11-21, 08:38 PM   #9215
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Kell Brook v Amir Khan confirmed for Manchester in Feb
Christ sake.

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Can't believe Lopez's dad is as deluded as his son, Watched that fight Sunday Morning and there was only 1 winner, They reckoned he won 10-2
Going after Taylor now, Not going for a rematch
Fucking idiot, one of the rounds where Lopez had his ears jabbed off, gets back to the corner and his dad is like "fucking beautiful". Makes Angel Garcia look like Emmanuel Steward
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Old 30-11-21, 12:16 PM   #9216
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Alright you pack of bums, it's welterweight time. Lots of guys left out like as I felt they were better at other weights or they did not spend enough time in the welter division.


1940s - Sugar Ray Robinson

Greatest welterweight of all time. For me there is not even the slightest bit of room for debate on that.



1950s - Kid Gavilan

Guy fought like a swarm of bees. Constant flow of punches. Really aggressive and rarely tried to fight on the back foot. Tended to beat others through sheer volume of shots (accurate ones at that) thrown. Really durable too so must have been a nightmare to face.




1960s - Emile Griffith

What many would call a warrior. Similar to Gavilan in that he was an aggressive front foot fighter but hit a lot harder than Gavilan. The kind of fighter who when tagged would roll his head and march in to land two or three of his own back in reply.




1970s - Jose Napoles

A machine in the ring. Silky smooth and could go through the gears instantly. Wonderful defence and one of those who could switch from being an excellent pressure fighter to being an excellent defensive fighter in a heartbeat.


1980s - Ray Leonard

Fluid, quick, and analytical in the ring. Pushed him in for the 1980s so I could get Napoles in for the 1970s Great hand speed, decent power, good footwork, a much braver fight in the ring than he is often given credit for. Bit of a prick outside the ring, scratch that a proper prick outside the ring at times and a touch of the Canelo about him at times with regards to liking things in his favour but that does not take away from his amazing talent and in ring ability.


1990s - Felix Trinidad

The 1990s were giving me a bit of bother to pick from, but have settled on Trinidad and think it might be the right choice. Had a bit of everything in his locker and went the entire decade undefeated at welterweight, he did not lose a fight until he moved to middleweight.


2000s - Floyd Mayweather

It's Mayweather, everyone knows what he brings.


2010s - Terence Crawford

Was between him and Spence jr for me for this decade. Crawford edges it for me on activity throughout the decade and think he would win if the two met.

Lovely to watch at work. Can box, can fight, can beat you with power, can beat you with technique, can take a shot, good stamina and has all the basics down to a tee at a very high level.


2020s - Leaving it blank. It would be Crawford again and not willing to put anyone else in there in his place.





One extra from any decade to make ten - Wilfred Benitez

Guy was an outstanding welterweight. In every department he was almost on the same level as Ray Leonard or Napoles and was a bit more aggressive in his style than the former. Beautiful to watch
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Old 30-11-21, 08:12 PM   #9217
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Thanks for the list. Will think about if there are any debatables.

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1990s - Felix Trinidad

The 1990s were giving me a bit of bother to pick from, but have settled on Trinidad and think it might be the right choice. Had a bit of everything in his locker and went the entire decade undefeated at welterweight, he did not lose a fight until he moved to middleweight.
I was hoping he would be there, he seems to have been forgotten about a little. Great fighter. He did probably lose to De la Hoya, although that's 100% Oscar's fault for giving away the last 3 rounds or whatever it was. Thought he could bank on the close ones.

One of the reasons I wanted the list, actually.
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Old 01-12-21, 11:47 AM   #9218
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Thanks for the list. Will think about if there are any debatables.



I was hoping he would be there, he seems to have been forgotten about a little. Great fighter. He did probably lose to De la Hoya, although that's 100% Oscar's fault for giving away the last 3 rounds or whatever it was. Thought he could bank on the close ones.

One of the reasons I wanted the list, actually.

There was me thinking that Gavilan, Napoles or Benitez would be the ones that got questioned.

Can see why some might not think of Trinidad straight away, but ten years undefeated at a weight is special no matter what weight divison. For me he was a very solid fighter with a great mix of physical and skill based qualities. Always thought he was a good thinker in the ring too, especially when under pressure.

Oscar did not come close to making my list though. I liked watching him and he was a good boxer but not list worthy imo. Think any list he makes would be based more on personality and his hype back in the day forcing him into people's thinking.

And just to be controversial, maybe.

I think Benitez may well have been good enough to make the top four or five welters of all time, I think he was that good a boxer/fighter. Would go as far as to say him vs Mayweather in a time machine fight would have been a very very close thing if both had the same level of diet/training methods etc.
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