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Old 23-12-19, 08:22 AM   #961
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Originally Posted by Pepe79 View Post
What problems? Form and confidence and generally going alarmingly downhill.

Admittedly I canít find any Reina quotes so it could be Iím just remembering internet or media talk, as you say. I just remember reading that Reina was not a fan of his methods.

Speaking for myself though, it was the pattern of keepers getting worse rather than improving that made me concerned about Achterberg.

Happily though, Iíd pretty much forgotten about that since Alisson has been here, which is credit to both of them. I still say the concerns were reasonable though, even if they werenít correct.
I know alot of people who had similar criticisms of Joe Corrigan when he was our GK coach. I think it is really difficult to tell whether it is the player or coach particularly as GK coaches will probably only work with a handful of GKs and over a period of 10 years probably only about 3 or4 of them will play regularly.
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Old 23-12-19, 08:37 AM   #962
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That's sort of my point, their 'problems' are debatable. I'd argue that Mig was a better all round keeper by the time he left, but ultimately still not good enough and never was. Karius had definitely shown signs of improvement and what happened with him was completely random and hardly something you can blame the coach for.

I too searched for the Reina quotes as something rang a bell with me, but either way, Pepe went through numerous coaches after Valero left and his best form was actually the final few months he was here, which I assume was under Achterberg.

Most of the accusations against Achterberg were assumptions and guesswork and I always found it odd that so many fans claimed to be experts on the subject, especially as those who worked with him generally spoke quite highly of him. Klopp absolutely loves him and has done from day 1 and if you believe the Mel Reddy article from last summer, Alisson probably wouldn't be here now if it wasn't for him.
I don’t agree that the issues were debatable. Each keeper became increasingly erratic and error prone over the course of being here. I don’t think any of them left as better keeper than when they arrived.

Reina only had 2 coaches after Valero. Mike Kelly, who was only here as long as Hodgson was and Achterberg. Reina’s best form was in his first 4 years (under Ochotorena and Valero) not his final few months. His last few years at Liverpool saw a big decline from him.

Mignolet was reportedly Achterbergs choice and I don’t remember him being so error prone at Sunderland or think he improved while at Liverpool.

Karius did show improvement before that final, but only on his own initial up and down Liverpool form, not on his form in Germany by all accounts.

As I say, my reasons for doubting Achterberg weren’t based on random guesswork. It was after seeing 3 successive 1st team keepers struggle over a period of about 9 years since he’d been coach.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:10 AM   #963
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Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:15 AM   #964
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Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.


CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. Thatís all that matters.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:28 AM   #965
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Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.
it's opinions, Dom. About Liverpool. On a Liverpool forum. If it's futile discussing such things then why don't we all just log off?
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Old 23-12-19, 09:30 AM   #966
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CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. Thatís all that matters.
Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:35 AM   #967
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Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.


Fair enough mate
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Old 23-12-19, 09:45 AM   #968
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You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:52 AM   #969
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You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.
Who are you talking to?

I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.

Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.

Anyway, done.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:55 AM   #970
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I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as weíve seen most likely far too limited), but you werenít alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


Youíre correct, Reinaís form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but youíve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.
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Old 23-12-19, 09:57 AM   #971
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Who are you talking to?



I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.



Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.



Anyway, done.
Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as fuck.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:01 AM   #972
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Is that what he said tho? And from a fan’s perspective how are we to judge coaches’s performances other than via the players?
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Old 23-12-19, 10:02 AM   #973
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Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as fuck.
Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:09 AM   #974
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Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.
Huh?

I've said no one has a clue.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:19 AM   #975
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Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as fuck.
Is this not what we as fans judge coaches and managers on all the time?

I'm sure you have opinions on LFC managers, Solskjaer, Silva, Emery, etc.
What exactly are you ultimately forming those on, if not what you see on the pitch?

And no, I never said JA was THE problem. Just that the concern was he was the constant factor, so maybe that was part of the issue.

Last edited by Pepe79; 23-12-19 at 10:23 AM.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:21 AM   #976
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Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.
Which was my point in the first place.


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I donít agree that the issues were debatable. Each keeper became increasingly erratic and error prone over the course of being here. I donít think any of them left as better keeper than when they arrived.

Reina only had 2 coaches after Valero. Mike Kelly, who was only here as long as Hodgson was and Achterberg. Reinaís best form was in his first 4 years (under Ochotorena and Valero) not his final few months. His last few years at Liverpool saw a big decline from him.

Mignolet was reportedly Achterbergs choice and I donít remember him being so error prone at Sunderland or think he improved while at Liverpool.

Karius did show improvement before that final, but only on his own initial up and down Liverpool form, not on his form in Germany by all accounts.

As I say, my reasons for doubting Achterberg werenít based on random guesswork. It was after seeing 3 successive 1st team keepers struggle over a period of about 9 years since heíd been coach.
Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)
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Old 23-12-19, 10:34 AM   #977
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I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as weíve seen most likely far too limited), but you werenít alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


Youíre correct, Reinaís form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but youíve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.
well said

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Is that what he said tho? And from a fanís perspective how are we to judge coachesís performances other than via the players?
Again, thanks for actually reading what I was saying
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Old 23-12-19, 10:35 AM   #978
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Which was my point in the first place.




Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)
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Old 23-12-19, 10:37 AM   #979
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Is this not what we as fans judge coaches and managers on all the time?

I'm sure you have opinions on LFC managers, Solskjaer, Silva, Emery, etc.
What exactly are you ultimately forming those on, if not what you see on the pitch?

And no, I never said JA was THE problem. Just that the concern was he was the constant factor, so maybe that was part of the issue.
Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:47 AM   #980
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Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.
I only disagreed with that in so much as that's not what I or everyone who was uncertain about JA were actually doing.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:50 AM   #981
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Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.
There are fewer examples to judge him by but they have far clearer correlation.

Like Iíve said, I feel the need to defend Pepe79 here.
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Old 23-12-19, 10:54 AM   #982
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This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies
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Old 23-12-19, 10:54 AM   #983
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I only disagreed with that in so much as that's not what I or everyone who was uncertain about JA were actually doing.
Was specifically in reference to the line of argument about "criticism" of him rather than uncertainty, which is a very different and entirely reasonable thing if that's what you meant

Anyway this has all had us reprobates rambling on far too long. Have a good Chrimbo if I don't catch you matey
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Old 23-12-19, 10:56 AM   #984
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This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies


We are arguing about the merit of the evidence we had for being wrong effectively.
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Old 23-12-19, 11:02 AM   #985
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We are arguing about the merit of the evidence we had for being wrong effectively.


But acknowledging it beautifully
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Old 23-12-19, 11:11 AM   #986
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This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies
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Old 23-12-19, 11:11 AM   #987
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Was specifically in reference to the line of argument about "criticism" of him rather than uncertainty, which is a very different and entirely reasonable thing if that's what you meant

Anyway this has all had us reprobates rambling on far too long. Have a good Chrimbo if I don't catch you matey
It is and you're right, what was supposed to be a straightforward acknowledgement of fair concerns turning out to be unnecessary somehow spiraled into a drawn out mess

Happy Christmas to you too
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Old 23-12-19, 12:50 PM   #988
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Anyway - that Alisson, what a fucking keeper hey?
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Old 23-12-19, 01:51 PM   #989
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This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies
Your welcome
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Old 23-12-19, 03:28 PM   #990
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I was speaking authoritatively
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Old 23-12-19, 03:29 PM   #991
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Your welcome
Your welcome what?
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Old 23-12-19, 03:48 PM   #992
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Your welcome what?
Mat?
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Old 24-12-19, 01:08 PM   #993
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This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies
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Your welcome
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Your welcome what?
For apparently starting the daftest discussion on here in a long while
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Old 24-12-19, 01:10 PM   #994
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Your welcome


What about his welcome?
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Old 24-12-19, 01:11 PM   #995
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Your welcome what?
Sir. Your welcome Sir
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Old 24-12-19, 01:12 PM   #996
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What about his welcome?
Stop trying to confuse me or it will happen
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Old 27-12-19, 02:34 PM   #997
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Old 27-12-19, 02:50 PM   #998
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Quietest game of the season for sure.
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Old 03-01-20, 09:21 AM   #999
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Feck all to do last night bar a half scuffed effort on the line IIRC.
Top drawer attention. It's what proper big signings do.

Picked up that Brazilian Samba Award (or something) as well, didn't he ? Top Brazilian plying his trade in Europe.
Of course we had Bobby and Fabinho in the top 5 as well I think.
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Old 03-01-20, 10:20 AM   #1000
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Lovely bit of play for our second. He's the goalie GOAT.
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