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Old 12-07-12, 12:20 PM   #1
baitman
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Our style of play

so we are now going to be the "new spain" with a false nine, and tika taka build up play.

i cannot see this being a smooth transition, and it might take a few seasons to become a smooth fit for some of the players.

i have seen several threads where there is mention of certain players being a better fit for this style. maybe others will need to be moved on.

Brendan Rodgers has said he realises that it isnt a short term fix to restore Liverpool to our former glory so it may take some time.

so maybe Andy Carroll doesnt fit in with the tika taka style. will the rest of the team make a seamless switch to this methodology. Should we keep AC to give us other options.

will our full backs give us the width we need as the front three might not give us the full width of the pitch. will this be a compromise to their defensive duties.

hopefully things will settle down soon and we come out with all guns blazing.
lets have it...

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Old 12-07-12, 12:42 PM   #2
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my concern is that it works well for Barca because they have Messi to score the goals.

its works well for spain because they have quality players and they are obviously playing tournament knockout football where a draw after 90 isn't the end of the world.

if we ala swansea knock it about and knock it about and knock it about, will we offer enough to win enough games? the onus is on us to attack and win, especially at home. Throw in the oppositions knack of scoring with their one attack and we could have problems.

In the league I'd personally prefer we took the utd blueprint of attacking and throwing on more attackers when needed to get the wins. constant pressure around the box. bullying teams into submission. its worked fairly well for them over the last 25 years.

we'll have to see. its a shame we couldn't have waited a year to see what rodgers had in the locker for swansea's second season. he would have needed to develop a plan b. I still feel its too soon for him.
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Old 12-07-12, 12:46 PM   #3
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We have Suarez
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Old 12-07-12, 12:46 PM   #4
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I think there will be a game next season when we don't play with a traditional forward. A false 9...Gerrrad IMO.
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Old 12-07-12, 12:52 PM   #5
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We have Suarez
This is what worries me when i hear things like 'it's going to take some time' , how long will he hang around without winning things ?

Then again, no player is bigger than the club, and we'd just have to trust BR to find a quality replacement.
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Old 12-07-12, 12:53 PM   #6
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This is what worries me when i hear things like 'it's going to take some time' , how long will he hang around without winning things ?
1-2 years then we have Sterling and Suso breaking through the ranks
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Old 12-07-12, 12:55 PM   #7
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1-2 years then we have Sterling and Suso breaking through the ranks
Will we though ? One will be back in london and the other is Spain knowing our luck.
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Old 12-07-12, 01:12 PM   #8
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some of our existing players might not fit the model, and it might be too soon for some of the promising youngsters.
this means getting in a few short to medium term replacements.

lets hope that the best of our young talent doesn't get disenchanted while waiting, can be given some game time so they believe they are a valid part of our future, and can be secured on long term contracts asap.
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Old 12-07-12, 01:54 PM   #9
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Interesting thread.

Obviously i'd love us to hit the ground running but with:

- A new manager
- Players away at the Euros
- New signings not having long to bed in
- Team trying to adjust to a different style of play
(Admittedly the right way to play the game of football, but a big adjustment for our players)

My feeling on it is that we might start quite slow, and with our fixture list in first 5-6 games which is fucking typical!! The above factors & i think Suarez missing opening games/s it really is a bastard of a start to Rogers managerial career at LFC.

I am going to have patience which i'm not really known for but if he can get us playing the game the way it should be played, get the right players in & the wrong players out, over time he could bring us back to where we want to be. But i have no doubts this won't happen over night, and i'm willing to cut the guy some slack as we are in need of a serious overhaul and it's a poxy uphill task for any manager to come into. So i'll try not to be a moany git if we lose the first few

I'm excited to see us play under Rogers, bit nervous and worried obviously but after watching us fumble about last season, running around like headless chickens with absolutely no game plan whatsoever i'm hoping that all Rogers talk will have us playing a lovely footballing method with high intensity pressure. Could very well be a joy to watch & hopefully over time the results start to come with that.

Even forgetting that he is managing LFC, you always want a guy like Rogers with his footballing philosophy to succeed. He is good for the game & hopefully good for our club.

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Old 12-07-12, 02:35 PM   #11
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Uhhhh.... off to find my kid a new sport to play. That skill is crazy for that age. yikes.
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Old 12-07-12, 02:46 PM   #12
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my concern is that it works well for Barca because they have Messi to score the goals.

its works well for spain because they have quality players and they are obviously playing tournament knockout football where a draw after 90 isn't the end of the world.

if we ala swansea knock it about and knock it about and knock it about, will we offer enough to win enough games? the onus is on us to attack and win, especially at home. Throw in the oppositions knack of scoring with their one attack and we could have problems.

In the league I'd personally prefer we took the utd blueprint of attacking and throwing on more attackers when needed to get the wins. constant pressure around the box. bullying teams into submission. its worked fairly well for them over the last 25 years.

we'll have to see. its a shame we couldn't have waited a year to see what rodgers had in the locker for swansea's second season. he would have needed to develop a plan b. I still feel its too soon for him.
thats why it works otherwise you just have a few players popping the ball about side to side waiting for something to happen. My guess is that the messi type player who can made the make the system work for rodgers was sigurdsson.

he arrives late in the box onto the end of crosses and through balls so they do have some penetration. But we all know that the longer you keep the ball the more time the opposition has to recover their shape and close the gaps.

I love watching barca and spain but they have the players to make this work. Suarez might now become the messi type figure because he can drift past players in tight spaces and get his shot off.

But we do need others because as weve seen with barca if messi doesnt do it they can struggle at times to break teams down. I also think we might be caught out on the counter a few times until the players get used to the passing rythms required.
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Old 12-07-12, 02:48 PM   #13
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their all so tiny, brilliant though.

They play better than we do at the moment!
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Old 12-07-12, 02:56 PM   #14
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http://blog.3four3.com/
fantastic video. the take down at 1.15 by the number 8 [right winger] was sublime, and the number 10 [centre forward/false nine] is the new messi

if we press teams like that then im in heaven.
the running off the ball, lack of 30-40 yard passes that often result in losing possession, the work rate ethic, always making players available for a pass and support of the guy carrying the ball... all great stuff
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Old 12-07-12, 03:05 PM   #15
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apparently that was arsenals usa academy team.
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Old 12-07-12, 03:12 PM   #16
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1.10 in the little No 8 on the wing pulls the ball out the air like it's stuck to his foot.
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Old 12-07-12, 04:10 PM   #17
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Yeh but those little fuckers are too lightweight and wouldn't last a minute in the physical PL.
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Old 12-07-12, 04:27 PM   #18
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Yeh but those little fuckers are too lightweight and wouldn't last a minute in the physical PL.
crushed like ants
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Old 13-07-12, 01:25 PM   #19
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Let's see 'em on a rainy January, away to Stoke. Eh? EH? :grin:
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Old 13-07-12, 01:56 PM   #20
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the zippy passing game, with less walloping up field and speculative crosses, players making the runs so they can receive a pass and others running off to create alternatives. keeping possession, and moving the ball forward, even if it has to temporarily go sideways or backwards, so long as you keep the other team frustrated.

this must be the way forward. have the opposition chasing shadows.

its all good showing the squad a few videos, and moving some coloured counters around on a magnetic white board. see how those young under 11s move it around. once they are in their 20s they will have been playing like that for years, and it becomes automatic

will the players soak it up. can it become natural and fluid for them.
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Old 16-07-12, 05:20 PM   #21
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wingers.
we all consider that wingers will zip down the wing, get to the by line and get the ball into the box, either on the ground or in the air, for a target man to smash in to the goal. the variations could be get to the by line, then cutting the ball back, or getting to the by line but then turning onto the other foot and coming inside.


i dont think that brendinhio's vision will rely on wingers as we once knew it. i think it will be tika taka midget ninja's cutting in from the flanks. no more "crosses into the box" from out wide. kind of like an inside forward. there may be some overlap from the defenders, who might be utilised more like a wing back, but this is a risky business with players becoming spent, and also being unable to get back and cover should the attack break down and we lose possession.
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Old 16-07-12, 08:11 PM   #22
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wingers.
we all consider that wingers will zip down the wing, get to the by line and get the ball into the box, either on the ground or in the air, for a target man to smash in to the goal. the variations could be get to the by line, then cutting the ball back, or getting to the by line but then turning onto the other foot and coming inside.


i dont think that brendinhio's vision will rely on wingers as we once knew it. i think it will be tika taka midget ninja's cutting in from the flanks. no more "crosses into the box" from out wide. kind of like an inside forward. there may be some overlap from the defenders, who might be utilised more like a wing back, but this is a risky business with players becoming spent, and also being unable to get back and cover should the attack break down and we lose possession.
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Old 16-07-12, 10:23 PM   #23
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I am looking forward to seeing which formation he employs. He used a 433 at swansea and I want to know what system he will be using.

Will it be an orthodox 433 with three interchangeable forwards or a 4231 with one behind the front man and two inside wide players.
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Old 17-07-12, 08:58 AM   #24
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I don't think the traditional lists of numbers are particularly suited to describing the sorts of formations employed by Spain, Barcelona or indeed Swansea. Beyond the selection of a back 4 or 3 a lot of the time the distinction has very little meaning when players take positions relative to the space or the other players rather than rigidly adhering to a formation Hodgson style.

Del Bosque kept claiming that all the teams he used at the Euros were 4-3-3 which was to some extent true but says nothing about the many differences in how it was deployed or what the tactics actually were for each match.
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Old 17-07-12, 02:08 PM   #25
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How did Swansea defend set pieces- zonal or man to man or a mix?
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Old 17-07-12, 02:17 PM   #26
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talking of defending...
when we play a 4,3,3, and we are defending, do the two "wide" forwards drop back, so making it a 4,5,1.
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Old 17-07-12, 02:27 PM   #27
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I don't think the traditional lists of numbers are particularly suited to describing the sorts of formations employed by Spain, Barcelona or indeed Swansea. Beyond the selection of a back 4 or 3 a lot of the time the distinction has very little meaning when players take positions relative to the space or the other players rather than rigidly adhering to a formation Hodgson style.

Del Bosque kept claiming that all the teams he used at the Euros were 4-3-3 which was to some extent true but says nothing about the many differences in how it was deployed or what the tactics actually were for each match.
i know he used both 433 and 4231 at swansea to good effect. 4231 for me is an obvious one for what we've got.

433 isnt as straight forward.
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Old 17-07-12, 02:42 PM   #28
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How did Swansea defend set pieces- zonal or man to man or a mix?
These comments indicate zonal:
http://www.swansea.vitalfootball.co....e.asp?a=265057
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Old 26-07-12, 03:25 PM   #29
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just watching spain vs. japan at the olympics. not much penetration from spain.


i know why spain are successful... they dont play in a league.

they play this tika taka stuff, keep possession, bore teams into coming out at them, cos the other team needs to score, then exploit the space.
this might be great in knock pout competition, but will it work against teams that park the bus, like the chavs vs. barca.

if it doesnt click for us... where do we go from this system
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Old 26-07-12, 05:08 PM   #30
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just watching spain vs. japan at the olympics. not much penetration from spain.


i know why spain are successful... they dont play in a league.

they play this tika taka stuff, keep possession, bore teams into coming out at them, cos the other team needs to score, then exploit the space.
this might be great in knock pout competition, but will it work against teams that park the bus, like the chavs vs. barca.

if it doesnt click for us... where do we go from this system
The chavs got lucky that time. i think it was 92% possession and 35 missed chances to Barca.
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Old 01-08-12, 02:42 PM   #31
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from dempsey thread...
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The key to this system is the final third... It is no problem to tap the ball around at the back and among Lucas and his partner in CM; our success will be defined by how we advance the ball when teams finally press us to regain possession and Gerrard/CAM (Shelvey?) will be a huge key to linking up Suarez/Borini/LW and getting the ball into dangerous areas. When I watch Spain, they don't think twice about playing it out of attacking areas into empty space backward, probing multiple areas before they finally get a pass on the floor that carves open a defense. That's all well and good when you can carve open defenses with skill and movement, but can we do that? and if we do, can we be clinical in front of goal? It will be interesting to see how this works for us; I am expecting a season of frustration but growth. But I also expect us to do much better against lesser teams-- those shit results against lower table clubs killed us last year.
we may struggle more against the lesser teams cos we struggle to break down a 10 man defence, like the hodgson system of two banks of four, about 10 yards apart.
so long as we dont chuck a ball into an overcrowded box and expect one or two striker to succeed against a crowded defence, and we play the ball to feet with close control, yet have patience enough to play it back if the killer pass isnt on, then we will do ok.
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Old 01-08-12, 03:23 PM   #32
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I think we will struggle to break down teams. To make the system work we will have to be a lot more patient than we have been - too often we looked frustrated and then went off the boil last season. I think a move away from crosses to short passing might help.

A big question will be whether that style presents the sort of chances the forwards we have will score from. On the positive side Borini has played for Rodgers before and done well. I also think Suarez will be helped.
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Old 01-08-12, 03:25 PM   #33
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I think we will struggle to break down teams. To make the system work we will have to be a lot more patient than we have been - too often we looked frustrated and then went off the boil last season. I think a move away from crosses to short passing might help.

A big question will be whether that style presents the sort of chances the forwards we have will score from. On the positive side Borini has played for Rodgers before and done well. I also think Suarez will be helped.


we have too often lacked intelligent movement in the centre and patience around the are, I'm hoping we can change that.
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Old 01-08-12, 03:38 PM   #34
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do our players practice the cross bar and goal post challenge

lets hope we manage to convert a few of those woodwork hits into goals this year
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Old 01-08-12, 05:14 PM   #35
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interesting article from rafa

Quo Vadis EPL?, by Rafa BenitezGeneral ArticlesRafa Benítez
After eight years in England, I am really pleased to see how many teams in the Premier League are little by little changing their style of play. Despite some opinions to the contrary, the arrival of foreign managers has benefited English football. These days not many question, for example, Manchester City’s zonal marking in corners or the necessary rotations carried out this season to ensure that English players could reach the European Cup with fresh legs. Furthermore, as time goes by we can see how the game is starting to be analysed taking into account aspects like team formation instead of just the performance of individual players.

One of the players from my time at Liverpool FC, who has played in various Premier League teams and is still playing in England, commented about a manager that he’s had: “he trains very similar to the way we used to with you, always with the ball”.

It seems that slowly there begins to be another vision of football and there is even talk of adopting the Spanish model for the youth system. The FA has reacted to this situation although it is going to be a hard task. Amongst other changes The FA is also trying to improve the structure of Football Academies, which is going to be positive. From my personal experience as player and coach in Spain for more than 30 years I would say that two basic things would help: first, youth system coaches’ formation; second, the under 21 competition system.

After analysing the statistics from the different leagues provided by Opta, especially the ones which refer to the Premier League, it appears systematically that Arsene Wenger’s Arsenal has been the team that has always maintained a style of football based on ball possession, even though now that style of play is beginning to spread.

These days it is interesting to see how, after the success of Barcelona and the national Spanish team, there have been followers that have compared themselves to the Catalan team in many aspects of the game but may not realise that Barcelona is what it is because they have spent many years playing in the same way, the same style and, above all, because Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets, Piqué, Dani Alves and the rest have converted Barcelona into a distinctive team because of their particular style of play and the great quality they have as individuals.

Even so, these statistics make for some interesting points. For example, significantly in the Premier League there have been more passes made in total (351,867) than in La Liga (340,416), and in addition the Premier League has more than seven teams that have exceeded the 20,000 passes although in comparison they still remain far from the statistics illustrated by Barcelona who exceed 29,000 passes in total. But neither Real Madrid nor Valencia have reached those 20.000 passes despite finishing first and third in the Spanish league which shows how the rest of the clubs in La Liga as a whole, do make more passes than teams in the Premier League as a whole.

When talking about style, keeping the ball, possession..., we could also analyse in which part of the pitch the ball is kept. Some of the teams with higher ball possession in the Premier League play a lot in their own half and also with their goalkeeper -which could be a good solution in some situations. The problem is also that their passing success rate in the opposite half is below 80%, far from the 87% shown by Barcelona. This reminds me of what used to happen in Spain 15 years ago with the famous “tiqui-taca”.

Tiqui-taca

The origin of this term, curiously, has negative connotations. Some years ago the Spanish league had public opinion divided between those that defended this type of passing play, generally short passing, and those that defended direct play, as playing long balls was considered more practical.

Coaches like Maguregui or Javier Clemente criticised this type of play (tiqui-taca) because -said in their favour- in those times many teams liked to keep passing the ball without progressing or creating chances. It was all about keeping the ball and waiting for the right moment to find the space and break the defence. It was named in some cases the “windscreen wiper game” because the ball went from one side to the other like a windscreen wiper, without reaching the opposition’s goal. One famous coach and defender of this type of play, “style” over result, told a journalist in answer to the question if he would prefer to win playing badly or lose playing well, that he would prefer to lose playing well. A few days later he was asked to come out and rectify these words, but the debate had already begun.

At Barcelona, Messi, Xavi, Busquets, Iniesta and company have given lustre to the famous “tiqui-taca” and with the arrival of Luis Aragonés to the national team, this group of players and this style of play began to shine and fascinate the world. Del Bosque and Guardiola achieved even greater triumphs with that style of play and above all with that group of players. Now many want to follow that style because it is fashionable, it’s beautiful and on top of that it wins titles. It’s a shame that there is, for example, just one Xavi Hernandez.
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Old 01-08-12, 05:19 PM   #36
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basically rafas saying that although possession based football is working well for barca it wont necessarily translate as well into the EPL because simply we dont have the players for the job.

also that barcas entire system is drilled to play that way so they understand the patterns of play and each player has a decent level of technical proficiency. Like he says there is only one xavi hernandez but more to the point there is only one leo messi.

he is the key to their system. if he doesnt play or is off his game, they dont score simple as. last time i checked we dont have a messi playing for us and madrid have just beaten barca playing a more adventurous and high paced style of football.

tiki-taka works but only if you've got the right players. Also i agree in that i dont think its a system that will produce many goals.
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Old 01-08-12, 05:35 PM   #37
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A bit Tomkins-esque from Rafa there, padding one point into a whole article.

I liked the 'windscreen wiper' term. Going to have plenty of whingers this season because of Rodgers' style of play. Wouldn't surprise me if we're dubbed 'boring Liverpool' by the press.
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Old 01-08-12, 05:43 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenix06 View Post
A bit Tomkins-esque from Rafa there, padding one point into a whole article.

I liked the 'windscreen wiper' term. Going to have plenty of whingers this season because of Rodgers' style of play. Wouldn't surprise me if we're dubbed 'boring Liverpool' by the press.
1-0 to Liverpool will do me just fine
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Old 10-08-12, 03:15 PM   #39
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much improved last night. better interplay, less wasteful, if attacks were going nowhere the possession was kept and the ball was played across field rather than chucking it up or taking a blast from 30 yards.

there was still a few times the long ball was chucked up. it nearly paid off a few times, but the poor linesman doesnt know the correct interpretation of offside
i dont think the long ball will serve us well in the prem as most teams will be more aware than Gollum were.

an interesting start.
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Old 18-08-12, 08:38 PM   #40
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possession is a dirty work when it doesnt bring an end product...

we need to drive at teams, with goalscoring options in the box.

its becoming very obvious that, for all his creativity and dazzling skills, luis suarez isnt a deadly goal scorer/striker. i have always felt that he is having to do so much of his own creating that he ends up getting mobbed by defenders and he isnt getting the open chances he would otherwise bury, but then he goes and misses a few sitters to leave us all scratching our heads

i reckon a more attacking formation that would allow suarez and gerrard to be creative from advanced midfield, and also allow them to follow up play to support the main strikers would be a better, more clinical option.

something like this;


going forward...

....................borini.....................

assaidi....gerrard....suarez....sterling

..........allen............lucas..............

....skertl........agger.......johnson.....

....................reina.......................

defending...

....................borini.....................
assaidi... gerrard... suarez... sterling
..........allen.....lucas.......
....skertl........agger.......johnson.....
....................reina.......................[/QUOTE]


im not certain that borini is the clinical finisher we need at the front, but im just putting him there on the diagram.
the back three will be subject to change. not sure about enrique or skertl at LB, but you get the idea i hope.

yes, its very offensive, but players can also drop back if we lose possession so it can be more solid and tight at the back, but with blistering pace on the wings and through the middle of the midfield to counter attack. we need goals, and this set up will give us that

any thoughts.
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