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Old 27-09-17, 01:04 PM   #681
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Can we let go of this 'biggest issue' thing? There are so many interconnected elements to the game, and lots of different ways of winning matches. The idea that we need to identify our biggest problem and address that is so reductive.
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Old 27-09-17, 03:58 PM   #682
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I know everything is a bit rough on the football side of things, but can we please stop this "discussion" and go back to the the actual thread. A couple of posters have been wrong in the tone and choice of words, and everyone should try an engage in a more positive debate. Calling out each other in threads helps nothing in terms of creating a good atmosphere to discuss things. Please report the stuff instead to the mods, and we notice a high enough volume on a certain poster we will do something.

So, please, back to our style of play, that is generally very entertaining and highly ineffective as of this season so far.
What’s the point tho? People have openly complained about Fredo’s repeated sniping, sarcasm, tone & trolling for months & nowt’s done about it. He gets away with being positive to the point of inane & blinkard at best, destructive to decent discussion beyond that, but there are people who are not as extreme in their views like LDP who get hammered for being negative cos they’re seen by the mods as on the wrong side of the debate divide.

Plus I’m actually sure the discussion used to be more animated & with more friction back in the “halycon” days of this place people hark back to than less so. It was never the peaceful positive polite utopia some seem to paint it as.
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Old 27-09-17, 04:34 PM   #683
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My link doesn't seem to work because of internet magic, but just shows that we've had 121 shots and scored 6 goals in our last 6 games :/
That's incredible
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Old 27-09-17, 09:04 PM   #684
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What’s the point tho? People have openly complained about Fredo’s repeated sniping, sarcasm, tone & trolling for months & nowt’s done about it. He gets away with being positive to the point of inane & blinkard at best, destructive to decent discussion beyond that, but there are people who are not as extreme in their views like LDP who get hammered for being negative cos they’re seen by the mods as on the wrong side of the debate divide.

Plus I’m actually sure the discussion used to be more animated & with more friction back in the “halycon” days of this place people hark back to than less so. It was never the peaceful positive polite utopia some seem to paint it as.
It's nothing to do with being an utopia or any other lable you want to put on it, it's about having a respectfull debate with eachother which is not achieved currently. And it's several people that are involved with that by either being provocative in a none-engaging way, being perhaps too one-dimensional in their view/argument or simply just biting on instead of ignoring and putting more fuel on the fire.

In any case there is defo no point in derailing threads and creating an (IMO) incredibly annoying reading experience for everyone not involved in the drama of the day.

So perhaps instead of openly complaining about a certain poster or posters then actually report the problem so the mods can get a better overview instead of derailing threads could be a solution? That's really all that's asked. It's fair enough to have issues, but it's just about where it's brought up. Things are done behind the scenes by mods/admins, but it's not necessarily the same as it's visible to everyone.

It's really just about creating a good debate here and I don't see anyone achieving that by having posters going after each other openly. As said, it's completely fair to have a problem/issue with a poster, the tone or whatever it's just about raising the issue in a better way.

Anyways, I'd be willing to discuss this if you want, but please take it to the feedback forum or PM then as to not derail this thread once more
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Old 27-09-17, 09:48 PM   #685
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That's incredible
It's also wrong. We've scored 7 in our last 5
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Old 27-09-17, 11:16 PM   #686
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It's nothing to do with being an utopia or any other lable you want to put on it, it's about having a respectfull debate with eachother which is not achieved currently. And it's several people that are involved with that by either being provocative in a none-engaging way, being perhaps too one-dimensional in their view/argument or simply just biting on instead of ignoring and putting more fuel on the fire.

In any case there is defo no point in derailing threads and creating an (IMO) incredibly annoying reading experience for everyone not involved in the drama of the day.

So perhaps instead of openly complaining about a certain poster or posters then actually report the problem so the mods can get a better overview instead of derailing threads could be a solution? That's really all that's asked. It's fair enough to have issues, but it's just about where it's brought up. Things are done behind the scenes by mods/admins, but it's not necessarily the same as it's visible to everyone.

It's really just about creating a good debate here and I don't see anyone achieving that by having posters going after each other openly. As said, it's completely fair to have a problem/issue with a poster, the tone or whatever it's just about raising the issue in a better way.

Anyways, I'd be willing to discuss this if you want, but please take it to the feedback forum or PM then as to not derail this thread once more
I’ve said my piece, nowt further to add.
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Old 28-09-17, 10:57 AM   #687
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i actually enjoy watching us under Klopp , he tries to win games and play attacking football.

Plus he seems to get the best out of players and improve them.

Just frustrating as fuck that we gift goals to the opposition instead of making them work for the goals .
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Old 28-09-17, 11:00 AM   #688
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i actually enjoy watching us under Klopp , he tries to win games and play attacking football.

Plus he seems to get the best out of players and improve them.

Just frustrating as fuck that we gift goals to the opposition instead of making them work for the goals .
Yeah after 2 seasons the coaching is going well.
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Old 28-09-17, 11:09 AM   #689
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Yeah after 2 seasons the coaching is going well.
He has got as back in Champions league which has to be counted as a success in his first full season .

Bought Mane and turned him into a world class player.

I get why people are pissed off if we were playing shit turgid football but we are not.

More plus points than negative for me.
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Old 28-09-17, 11:36 AM   #690
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He has got as back in Champions league which has to be counted as a success in his first full season .

Bought Mane and turned him into a world class player.

I get why people are pissed off if we were playing shit turgid football but we are not.

More plus points than negative for me.


It's crazy, i don't get it either.

In his first season, he got us to two cup finals. In his first full season, he gave us a (short-lived) title challenge and guided us to CL qualification, against the odds. He's overachieved. He's made some great signings, improved the squad, made us appealing again to top class players and has us playing exciting football every match, even if we don't get the goals some of our play deserves.

What are his biggest crimes? Not being more defensive and playing a DM. Not being more attacking and playing a CF. Not making Southampton sell VVD. To quote a famous thread, 'we are in decline'!

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Old 28-09-17, 11:40 AM   #691
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i actually enjoy watching us under Klopp , he tries to win games and play attacking football.

Plus he seems to get the best out of players and improve them.

Just frustrating as fuck that we gift goals to the opposition instead of making them work for the goals .
That's it in a nutshell, we play great attack-minded football (some of the best I have seen from a Liverpool side) and unlike past seasons we never look beaten, even when going a goal down; however, we are prone to giving away the weakest of goals.

I just can't fathom the level of negativity and despondency with fellow supporters. I recognise some of the names from the dark days of Koptalk, so they have been through the last few years of Houllier when we were constantly turning corners. The end of Benitez were politics and point scoring appeared more important than football. Hicks, Gillet and near bankruptcy with horror show which was Hodgson's reign running concurrently. With all this in recent memory, how people can see our start of season in negative light in beyond my understanding.
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Old 28-09-17, 12:47 PM   #692
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That's it in a nutshell, we play great attack-minded football (some of the best I have seen from a Liverpool side) and unlike past seasons we never look beaten, even when going a goal down; however, we are prone to giving away the weakest of goals.

I just can't fathom the level of negativity and despondency with fellow supporters. I recognise some of the names from the dark days of Koptalk, so they have been through the last few years of Houllier when we were constantly turning corners. The end of Benitez were politics and point scoring appeared more important than football. Hicks, Gillet and near bankruptcy with horror show which was Hodgson's reign running concurrently. With all this in recent memory, how people can see our start of season in negative light in beyond my understanding.
I'm pretty negative about this season I guess but the level (or scope of that negativity) is key. While I think this is a transitional season (as will next year FWIW) I'm happy with the current direction of the club.

We can't use Hodgson and the club nearly going bankrupt as the base of which to judge a season or else we'll celebrate mediocrity every year. If that's what you're willing to settle for then fair play to you. But currently we have a dreadful defence that will undermine us and we didn't see fit to address in the summer, so that's frustrating. We scraped one win this month and with that there's always going to be some negativity - as there should be with a month like that IMO.
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Old 28-09-17, 01:53 PM   #693
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We can't use Hodgson and the club nearly going bankrupt as the base of which to judge a season or else we'll celebrate mediocrity every year.
It wasn't to be used as a barometer to judge a season (we are not even at the end of September) just as a point in time reference against some of the negative hyperbole by some fans on forums and phone-ins. This was to highlight what a struggling Liverpool team is like.

Results have not been ideal during September but barring City with 10 men we have been the better team in all games. We are a young team and can only get better. We went away in Europe to the top seeds and they kept 11 men behind the ball and celebrated a home draw as an achievement, they can see we are a strong team on the rise. Why can't our own fans?
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Old 28-09-17, 02:24 PM   #694
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That's it in a nutshell, we play great attack-minded football (some of the best I have seen from a Liverpool side) and unlike past seasons we never look beaten, even when going a goal down; however, we are prone to giving away the weakest of goals.

I just can't fathom the level of negativity and despondency with fellow supporters. I recognise some of the names from the dark days of Koptalk, so they have been through the last few years of Houllier when we were constantly turning corners. The end of Benitez were politics and point scoring appeared more important than football. Hicks, Gillet and near bankruptcy with horror show which was Hodgson's reign running concurrently. With all this in recent memory, how people can see our start of season in negative light in beyond my understanding.
the attacking is great, the goal scoring is a little less positive though.
also, its worth remembering that the game of football is played all over the pitch... we only seem to function in the oppositions half but go to shit when the opposition have the ball and get into the final third.

thats not being negative, its calling it how it is.
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Old 28-09-17, 02:39 PM   #695
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It wasn't to be used as a barometer to judge a season (we are not even at the end of September) just as a point in time reference against some of the negative hyperbole by some fans on forums and phone-ins. This was to highlight what a struggling Liverpool team is like.

Results have not been ideal during September but barring City with 10 men we have been the better team in all games. We are a young team and can only get better. We went away in Europe to the top seeds and they kept 11 men behind the ball and celebrated a home draw as an achievement, they can see we are a strong team on the rise. Why can't our own fans?
I largely agree we're heading in the right direction but there's still a lot to do. We've been worked out for one.

Everyone knows how to play against us and we know Conte spoke to Moscow's manager... Low block and counter. We're tactically inflexible and don't have the right players at either ends of the pitch and arguably in the center as well (). Again that's not particularly negative, that's just pretty clear to anyone who watches us. We'll need to be patient while Klopp builds a team capable of competing.
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Old 28-09-17, 02:45 PM   #696
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I largely agree we're heading in the right direction but there's still a lot to do. We've been worked out for one.

Everyone knows how to play against us and we know Conte spoke to Moscow's manager... Low block and counter. We're tactically inflexible and don't have the right players at either ends of the pitch and arguably in the center as well (). Again that's not particularly negative, that's just pretty clear to anyone who watches us. We'll need to be patient while Klopp builds a team capable of competing.
Who do you think Klopp would change from our front 4?
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Old 28-09-17, 03:09 PM   #697
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The thing is people said we have been found out but we created a shit load of chances against Spartak with their 11 behind the ball.

When games are over and we don't create anything worthwhile is the time to start worrying.
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Old 28-09-17, 03:09 PM   #698
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I’d be very surprised if anyone here is advocating getting rid of Klopp or not giving the due levels of praise he should get for getting us back into the CL. And yes sometimes we play the best attacking football we’ve seen in decades at LFC. If anything though, that adds to the frustration for some because the volatility of our levels of performance from game to game & our quality throughout the different areas of the field is huge - unacceptably so for a team of our standing & ambitions. Klopp himself has said as much in terms of defensively at least.

The frustration is increased cos the problems we have which undermine a huge proportion of the good work we have done are glaringly obvious to even the most casual of football observers & have been endemic within the team since way before Klopp took over. Aye, the optimum level of improving these areas (especially in terms of keeper and defence) might not have been available but there’s no way we couldn’t have improved at least a little over the 4 windows Klopp has had in both personnel and execution.

I don’t know exactly where our defence ranks in the league terms of porousness but it must be within the lower half- say 12/20? That equates to a 4/10. Aye, our style of play might well limit us to being a 7 or 8 but instead of trying to improve to a 5 or 6 we’ve chased an all or nothing approach which has again seen us with a defence that effectively hamstrings us so they still have a negative rather than even a neutral contribution.

Last season we kept bringing on Lucas as a DM & CB & whilst sadly he wasn’t up to the requisite standards, at least DM was his default position. So bringing him on to see out games - whatever the success levels - was at least a tacit admission of the need for such a player as well as another CB. Yet then we sell him with no back up whatsoever, leaving us in an even worse situation.

Transfer window wise, we secure a great CM for next season and a great winger for this but none of the painfully obvious & fundamental issues that have been hampering the team since Rafa’s last season 7 years ago have been addressed properly. Goalie, CB, LB, CM & striker are all still huge issues for us. For the millionth time in our history we fuck up the major game changing transfers we are - or at the very least should be- pursuing & leave things to the very last day then publicly secure fuck all.

This is the type of fuckwittery that’s been endemic within the club for over a decade shows little if any sign of abating. Obviously this is on the club as well as the manager but we still don’t seem to have learned the lessons on or off the pitch. So the fans’ long term frustration bleeds over from previous tenures cos we feel like we’ve seen it all before. Over & over again.

We had a fantastic chance to take the next step and secure ourselves as as real a CL regular as our financial resources allow but whilst we’ve improved some areas of the team, the real problem areas are, if anything, worse; and because as a whole we have at best made small steps forward in absolute terms, relatively we’ve gone backwards because teams around us have either improved or been so far ahead of us as for their status quo not to affect us.
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Old 28-09-17, 04:16 PM   #699
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Who do you think Klopp would change from our front 4?
I think he'll have no choice but to replace Coutinho next year and he'll replace Sturridge when he/the club is able to offload his 150k/wk wage - with a bit of luck this replacement is able to compete with Firmino.

He's also got the burden of Can leaving, a DM/controller need and the obvious issue of the defence is why I point to at least two seasons of building.
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Old 31-10-17, 11:18 AM   #700
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our style of play

so [v huddersfield] was gomez used as a third CB, playing a back three.

cant trust moreno to get back so let him run around chasing the bubbles and let klavan [left footed CB] cover the left hand side.

https://www.thisisanfield.com/2017/1...-huddersfield/

a back three means we are less vulnerable to long balls into the space left unoccupied by our full backs, and the central CB [matip] can step forward 10 yards and become a virtual DM.

i think this set up better suits the personnel we have available and also addresses our weaknesses.

we can play taa on the right as a right winger, salah or mane on the left, bring cout or firmino into the 10, with three from can/henderson/grujic/wijnaldum in the middle. mane/salah and taa as wingers.
solanke needs a turn up front.

solanke
salah - coutinho - taa
wijnaldum - henderson - can
klavan - matip - gomez
mignolet
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Old 31-10-17, 11:29 AM   #701
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If we were to try that I’d prefer this.

Mig
Gomez Matip Klavan
Milner Can Coutinho Wijnaldum
Salah Sturidge or Solanke Firmino
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Old 31-10-17, 08:10 PM   #702
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If we were to try that I’d prefer this.

Mig
Gomez Matip Klavan
Milner Can Coutinho Wijnaldum
Salah Sturidge or Solanke Firmino
Playing with 10 men would seriously hamper us
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Old 31-10-17, 10:39 PM   #703
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Playing with 10 men would seriously hamper us
i did see that but i thought i'd let it ride to try and encourage some debate

and possibly spare SB's blushes. ahh fuck it
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Old 31-10-17, 10:58 PM   #704
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I think he means Sturidge or Solanke as one player, flanked by Firmino and Salah.
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Old 01-11-17, 02:13 AM   #705
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I think he means Sturidge or Solanke as one player, flanked by Firmino and Salah.
which makes 10

fuckin hell, we could be here all night
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Old 01-11-17, 09:34 AM   #706
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which makes 10

fuckin hell, we could be here all night
I make that 3-4-3 which makes it 11.
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Old 01-11-17, 12:16 PM   #707
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Playing with 10 men would seriously hamper us
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i did see that but i thought i'd let it ride to try and encourage some debate

and possibly spare SB's blushes. ahh **** it
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which makes 10

****in hell, we could be here all night
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I make that 3-4-3 which makes it 11.
At least you can count dude. Not sure what the other pair are on but I’ll pass on it.
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Old 01-11-17, 12:17 PM   #708
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I think he means Sturidge or Solanke as one player, flanked by Firmino and Salah.
your quicker than the others.
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Old 01-11-17, 01:31 PM   #709
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your quicker than the others.
Not much of a compliment when the others can't count past 10 though.
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Old 01-11-17, 01:40 PM   #710
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I think he means Sturidge or Solanke as one player, flanked by Firmino and Salah.
ahh, so what he meant was;
Mig
Gomez Matip Klavan
Milner Can Coutinho Wijnaldum
Salah Sturridge/Solanke Firmino

yes, indeed 11.
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Old 02-11-17, 12:09 PM   #711
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Not much of a compliment when the others can't count past 10 though.
True that. Like an able bodied athlete winning the disabled games gold medal.
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Old 02-11-17, 12:11 PM   #712
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ahh, so what he meant was;
Mig
Gomez Matip Klavan
Milner Can Coutinho Wijnaldum
Salah Sturridge/Solanke Firmino

yes, indeed 11.
Your special you are.
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Old 02-11-17, 01:21 PM   #713
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You're special, you are.
fixed it for you, you able bodied athlete, you

and we are 'special' not disabled
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Old 05-11-17, 01:28 AM   #714
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So Klopp in his post match presser alluded heavily to a different style of play and the need to change things because of the number of recent games and also the number of goals conceded recently ( I think ). Gerrard suggested after the game we were playing two holding midfielders tonight (v WHam) - Can't say I noticed, but then I never notice these things. Was there a big style change? Is it durable? As I write, 1 goal conceded in 3 is not bad, even though the opposition is not that great - will we carry on playing this way away from home? Has Klopp gone some way to solving the defensive woes? He has at least recognised them and appears willing to change things in order to remedy it - is it enough?
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Old 05-11-17, 01:36 AM   #715
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Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
So Klopp in his post match presser alluded heavily to a different style of play and the need to change things because of the number of recent games and also the number of goals conceded recently ( I think ). Gerrard suggested after the game we were playing two holding midfielders tonight (v WHam) - Can't say I noticed, but then I never notice these things. Was there a big style change? Is it durable? As I write, 1 goal conceded in 3 is not bad, even though the opposition is not that great - will we carry on playing this way away from home? Has Klopp gone some way to solving the defensive woes? He has at least recognised them and appears willing to change things in order to remedy it - is it enough?
It seems we are playing with a different set up defensively when we have the ball, sometimes with 3 at the back but all the while keeping it as back 4. Today was more like 4 in midfield and Salah playing behind Firmino. I thought we were poor for 20 mins in the second half when the game was out of our control. It might be due to the fact we changed the system slightly in midfield but I cannot see this as a permanent change in set up.
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Old 05-11-17, 01:47 AM   #716
Norbs
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As the great Bob Marley once said

No Lovren, no goals
NO LOVREN.... NO GOALS
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Old 05-11-17, 02:01 AM   #717
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Originally Posted by Norbs View Post
As the great Bob Marley once said

No Lovren, no goals
NO LOVREN.... NO GOALS
Lovren will be back in the next game I'm sure.
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Old 05-11-17, 12:04 PM   #718
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fixed it for you, you able bodied athlete, you

and we are 'special' not disabled
yes we are
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Old 05-11-17, 01:20 PM   #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatterdemalion View Post
So Klopp in his post match presser alluded heavily to a different style of play and the need to change things because of the number of recent games and also the number of goals conceded recently ( I think ). Gerrard suggested after the game we were playing two holding midfielders tonight (v WHam) - Can't say I noticed, but then I never notice these things. Was there a big style change? Is it durable? As I write, 1 goal conceded in 3 is not bad, even though the opposition is not that great - will we carry on playing this way away from home? Has Klopp gone some way to solving the defensive woes? He has at least recognised them and appears willing to change things in order to remedy it - is it enough?
There some tweeks at the Huddersfield game, not massively obvious as the starting positions looked the same, we would drift between old and new in different situations. Only watched on the tele yesterday and noticed the 442 a couple of times.

I've been concerned that Klopp has had too much faith in the system he has been using, its nice to seem him willing to change it up
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Old 05-11-17, 02:09 PM   #720
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Originally Posted by Liverpool View Post
There some tweeks at the Huddersfield game, not massively obvious as the starting positions looked the same, we would drift between old and new in different situations. Only watched on the tele yesterday and noticed the 442 a couple of times.

I've been concerned that Klopp has had too much faith in the system he has been using, its nice to seem him willing to change it up
I think he seemed to tuck Gomez in and perhaps he flipped the CM from one to two. Like you I'm glad he's tweaking the system in response to being too open. But I still think the real answer to our problems lie in recruitment. Those three games are games we should be winning on paper and comfortably... The defence didn't have much to do against Huddersfield who came to draw, Maribor who are a cut above a pub team and West Ham who are piss poor (and even then we had a defensive howler).
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