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Old 22-09-13, 09:50 PM   #41
Neil Young
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcasemore View Post
That is a motley cru of footballers!

One or two decent players in there but not enough considering the number of players they brought in this summer, 14 wasn't it?
Poodle rock.

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Suppose you have a physicist and a sociologist standing at the side of a field, observing a set of events unfolding on the field. The physicist does [describes] it using the terminology of mass and velocity and frequency of radiation and the rest. And the sociologist does it by describing it as a rugby match.



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Old 22-09-13, 10:21 PM   #42
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Perfect!! We play them next away from home. I smell a new manager first game syndrome.. they'll probably play out of their skin.
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Old 22-09-13, 10:26 PM   #43
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Di Matteo and Poyet got to be in with a shout.
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Old 22-09-13, 10:40 PM   #44
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Perfect!! We play them next away from home. I smell a new manager first game syndrome.. they'll probably play out of their skin.
Studies has been done on this. Normally there is little effect the first game after a change in managers, the effect is biggest in game number 2.
This will, of course, not happend this time. After all it`s us they`re playing.
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Old 22-09-13, 10:44 PM   #45
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13 games in charge, was always going to be short lived. Ridiculous appointment.


Barely a third of a season.

I thought he'd be next to go but I'm shocked that he's gone so soon.

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Di Matteo and Poyet got to be in with a shout.
Poyet's a great shout.

Given the money spent this summer they should probably be doing better than they are. A couple of decent players in that squad, if they choose their next manager carefully then they should have enough to stay up.

Di Canio.
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Old 22-09-13, 11:05 PM   #46
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I feel a bit sorry for Di Canio, he was a bit off the wall and didn't have any problem calling his players out but 13 games regardless of what you think of him personally is ridiculous
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Old 23-09-13, 12:48 AM   #47
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Looking at that squad. Their defence is absolutely shocking! They have some decent midfielders and attackers who can score, but that defence is absolutely appalling.
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Old 23-09-13, 01:33 AM   #48
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I think that Di Canio will be sacked next week.
Any more tips?
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Old 23-09-13, 01:36 AM   #49
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He called the board out by stating he will never change, the board probably see the need for less rigidity. Or they realised as he turned up to work in a black shirt he really did love Fascism.
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Old 23-09-13, 01:39 AM   #50
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I hope they take Martin O'Neill again. Purely because I don't want him to get the Ireland job.
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Old 23-09-13, 07:10 AM   #51
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If they have any sense the will take Poyet as their new manager
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Old 23-09-13, 10:51 AM   #52
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Poyet is a good shout for the job, hopefully they'll end up with someone like Alan Curbishley though
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Old 23-09-13, 11:04 AM   #53
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It was stupid to appoint Di Canio in the first place.

Even idiots could understand that the players would never accept him because of him being a facist.

He couldn't lose the dressing room because he never owned it in the first place.

It will probably be the first game this season that every player will work their socks off when they play against us.
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Old 23-09-13, 01:28 PM   #54
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It was stupid to appoint Di Canio in the first place.

Even idiots could understand that the players would never accept him because of him being a facist.

He couldn't lose the dressing room because he never owned it in the first place.

It will probably be the first game this season that every player will work their socks off when they play against us.
You're crediting footballers with having a mind of their own.

He's the sort of manager that if you give 100% to the cause everygame he'll protect you to the end, to be honest players should be doing this as a minimum. He was trying to create a seige mentality and get the group to believe in him, a bit like Mourinho does.

The board should resign for not knowing what they were getting when they appointed him.
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Old 23-09-13, 01:40 PM   #55
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Arn, did you have a bet on dicanio getting das boot.
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Old 23-09-13, 01:56 PM   #56
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Di Canio comes across totally unhinged.

An unhinged fascist, not really a phenomenal combination for any human being.
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Old 23-09-13, 02:00 PM   #57
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Di Canio comes across totally unhinged.

An unhinged fascist, not really a phenomenal combination for any human being.
today sunderland. tomorrow, the north east. next week, western europe, etc
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Old 23-09-13, 04:29 PM   #58
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Why the hate? Here's why:

Anyone can think what they like but that's no reason to believe fascism is just another set of political principles that can be held honourably like any other. I'd oppose him just for that. The fact that a known fascist has a job with a fairly high public profile his presence necessarily involves legitimising opinions which can have no legitimacy in a civilized and open society.

What's worse is he actively promotes his views and seeks to justify them. He hasn't kept it quiet, a private matter.

He calls himself a fascist. He uses the fascist salute in public. He attends fascist gatherings, including the funeral of someone implicated in the bombing of Bologna railway station which killed 85 people and injured more than 200. He has Mussolini's title tattooed on his arm and a fascist emblem tattooed on his back.

Fascism is anti-democratic, xenophobic, militaristic and ultra-nationalistic. It's opposed to pluralism so is, by definition, intolerant.

I don't see any reason for tolerating his presence or giving him a public platform to legitimise or normalise his hateful opinions. So, whatever I could have thought about what you say about his other characteristics as a football manager, it all has zero significance to me.

Put it this way: if he was made Liverpool manager I'd stop supporting the club. And if it was a choice between tolerating Di Canio or supporting Man United, I wouldn't have to think about it for a moment.
Come on Neil. You can't just say someone's political beliefs define them or their actions. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for his political beliefs - to single out politics as the reason here seems close minded and, to be honest, it betrays a certain level of political bigotry. Don't you think? After all, fascism tends to be a European political movement therefore being anti-fascist is a form of europhobia.

Do you think I laid it on a bit too thick?
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Old 23-09-13, 04:42 PM   #59
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Come on Neil. You can't just say someone's political beliefs define them or their actions. There are social, cultural and religious reasons for his political beliefs - to single out politics as the reason here seems close minded and, to be honest, it betrays a certain level of political bigotry. Don't you think? After all, fascism tends to be a European political movement therefore being anti-fascist is a form of europhobia.

Do you think I laid it on a bit too thick?
Is this a serious question?

Fascism is a petit-bourgoise ideology that believes that you, and pretty much every one else, is too stupid to know what's good for you and society generally. Fascists believe that only a tiny number of people understand what people need and this tiny group decide what we can all read, what sort of music we can listen to, what we wear, what we say, etc.

They do not believe in democracy! They believe that most people are not to be trusted when electing our own representatives so voting gets abolished. In Nazi Germany, the first people to be sent to the concentration camps were not Jews or liberals, but Socialists and trade Unionists as they were only ones who truly understood fascism and how to organise against it.

After that they sent people with physical disabilities and mental health problems/learning disabilities as they were seen as a burden on society.

They then murdered 6 million Jewish people because they were seen as 'sub-human'. They also murdered millions of Russian and Polish people because they didn't fit the fascists physical stereotypes.

Oh, and you're not allowed to disagree with them as they will beat you up and murder you if you do.

Check out the Anti-Nazi League website at www.uaf.org.uk or look at Searchlight Magazine on line to find out what fascism stands for.

Last edited by Frenchie; 23-09-13 at 05:15 PM.
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Old 23-09-13, 04:57 PM   #60
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Frenchie, I agree of course but I'm 99.9% sure BP was joking (I can't always tell, hence the 0.1%).

I think he was turning my own words about Islamophobia back on me. We had an exchange of views over the course of some time and I suspect we never resolved it fully.

The difference, Mister Pig, is that fascism is a political ideology, whereas Islam isn't while Islamism is.

everybody.
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Suppose you have a physicist and a sociologist standing at the side of a field, observing a set of events unfolding on the field. The physicist does [describes] it using the terminology of mass and velocity and frequency of radiation and the rest. And the sociologist does it by describing it as a rugby match.



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Old 23-09-13, 05:17 PM   #61
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I hope at least some will understand what Fascism is now...
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Old 23-09-13, 05:18 PM   #62
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i don't have time to separate people up into a million different little groups. i find it's expedient to just hate them all and move on with your day.
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Old 23-09-13, 05:23 PM   #63
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i don't have time to separate people up into a million different little groups. i find it's expedient to just hate them all and move on with your day.
you cant go far wrong with that philosophy
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Old 23-09-13, 05:32 PM   #64
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I hope at least some will understand what Fascism is now...
I've been arguing against it for a while now, except it was a religiously based fascism I was arguing against.

Neil, are you honestly saying Islam - or any monotheistic religion - isn't an ideology? Religion is fundamentally ideological.

Maybe we should take this up in the EDL thread. If either of us could be arsed.
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Old 23-09-13, 05:49 PM   #65
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I simply draw a distinction between Islam, a set of religious principles that some choose to live by, and forms of Political Islam, which use those (disputed) religious principles as a basis or justification for political ends, usually as a banner and a rallying cry.

More broadly, there is a difference between a religious creed (or religious ideology) and a political creed (or political ideology).

It seems as pointless to me to use political analysis to investigate religious principles/dogma as it is to use a theology to analyse scientific phenomena. I think that's exactly what a lot of criticism of Islam is. It's using the wrong framework, like saying fossils exist because God put them there.
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Suppose you have a physicist and a sociologist standing at the side of a field, observing a set of events unfolding on the field. The physicist does [describes] it using the terminology of mass and velocity and frequency of radiation and the rest. And the sociologist does it by describing it as a rugby match.



May the Lord bless this post.

Last edited by Neil Young; 23-09-13 at 05:51 PM.
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Old 23-09-13, 05:57 PM   #66
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don't forget the sun creed.
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Old 23-09-13, 06:25 PM   #67
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I simply draw a distinction between Islam, a set of religious principles that some choose to live by, and forms of Political Islam, which use those (disputed) religious principles as a basis or justification for political ends, usually as a banner and a rallying cry.

More broadly, there is a difference between a religious creed (or religious ideology) and a political creed (or political ideology).

It seems as pointless to me to use political analysis to investigate religious principles/dogma as it is to use a theology to analyse scientific phenomena. I think that's exactly what a lot of criticism of Islam is. It's using the wrong framework, like saying fossils exist because God put them there.
Jesus Neil I don't get this. In some bizarre convoluted attempt to avoid being critical of a set of ideas, you're separating out Creed from principle from theology from ideology - the four go together to make the entity surely? The Creed, texts, principles and theology of Islam all make Islam. You don't have to go to Islamism to find offensive repressive controlling backwardness. Unless you think local Sharia courts are a good idea. Or veiling. Or homophobia.

Point of order - theology is useless for explaining anything other than itself. So it's useless. And I see no problem using the lexicon of politics to analyse religions eg analysing the hierarchical structure of catholicism. That's very useful to use the language of the empowered and the disempowered.

In your post you raise the idea of how to tolerate the intolerant. That's my question too. You seem to have no problem eviscerating fascism. Quite rightly. Why spare religion?
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Old 23-09-13, 07:01 PM   #68
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One more point: I disagree that the wrong framework is being used to critique Islam or Christianity for that matter. A lot of the criticism is from a moral philosophy standpoint eg Sam Harris. Criticizing religion at all is slippery though as inbuilt into religion is an imperviousness to criticism. That's why most internal religious debates are ridiculous - and I don't see why you reference them ocasionalyvas a reason not criticise religion from the outside - because it's based on scriptural analysis to find the supposed truth eg what do the scholars, Qur'an and Hadith say about homosexuality or what does the Bible say about creation? Theologians tend to be the ones who claim that critics are using the wrong terms in their analysis. From where I stand, what possible way can I express in acceptable theological language that there's no hell, Jesus didn't rise from the dead and no angel appeared to Muhammad?
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Old 23-09-13, 07:54 PM   #69
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Weirdest thread tangent. Ever.
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Old 23-09-13, 07:56 PM   #70
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Needs to moved alright.
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Old 23-09-13, 07:57 PM   #71
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I agree about theology. That's the whole point.

I don't know why you keep trying to use politics to analyse theology. Not only is it a waste of your time, it's also doomed to fail.

As for denying the existence of Hell and angels and all that, I agree of course but so what? It doesn't change the minds of people who believe it. They're wrong but they can be wrong if they want to be.

It's when they seek to impose their views on others that I take exception, whether through violence or statute or pressure...because then it's no longer a matter of individual religious belief but becomes POLITICAL.

I already answered your question about the differences between Islam and Fascism. Apples and zirconium. That's why I mentioned Islamism...
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Suppose you have a physicist and a sociologist standing at the side of a field, observing a set of events unfolding on the field. The physicist does [describes] it using the terminology of mass and velocity and frequency of radiation and the rest. And the sociologist does it by describing it as a rugby match.



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Old 23-09-13, 08:45 PM   #72
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Based on what Neil and bad piggy have said, I think Ian Holloway will be the next to go.
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Old 23-09-13, 11:38 PM   #73
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I think and hope it will his Moyesness after a string of losses, injuries and the like.

Woy Bodgson waiting in the wings to offer his "expewiance" as it's all the same as when he won the "Crispy Fillet o' Fish" playoffs in Helsinki when James Hunt was F1 champ.

Ah golden years...David Bowie......
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Old 24-09-13, 06:55 AM   #74
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Nah, we want Moyes to limp on a good few years yet & sow a deep-seated culture of failure there for a very, very long time indeed.
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Old 24-09-13, 07:00 AM   #75
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Nah, we want Moyes to limp on a good few years yet & sow a deep-seated culture of failure there for a very, very long time indeed.
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Old 24-09-13, 12:36 PM   #76
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ok... so who is next
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Old 24-09-13, 12:37 PM   #77
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Old 24-09-13, 12:40 PM   #78
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Will be very surprised if he isn't sacked before the end of October.
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Old 24-09-13, 12:41 PM   #79
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Chris Houghton. Sadly.

Nah, I take that back - Martin Jol.
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Old 24-09-13, 09:03 PM   #80
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Both of them will be under some pressure.
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