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Old 15-08-19, 03:29 AM   #481
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Originally Posted by Buzzo View Post
Which there was. Not enough contact to legislate for a penalty.
Adrian took him out with his legs. Stonewall penalty.
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Old 15-08-19, 06:31 AM   #482
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This whole 'contact on replays' being used to justify pens is a byproduct of the Sky Sports interpretation of football.
Nowhere in the rules of the sport will you see contact being used as justification for awarding a penalty.
An infringement by an opposing player is what's key.

Every week we see idiot pundits maintaining "oh, there's contact" or "you see he's running at pace". Arsebollocks.

Anyone who even remotely suggests that's a pen needs their head examined, and trying to justify if Adrian even laid a finger on his sock as reason enough to award said penalty needs beating about that head. In offhand terms, the term contact means appreciable intent by the player to stop an opponent, not whether or not the finger brushed a knee FFS.

There is no appreciable infringement by Adrian, there is no 'contact', the player does what they all do - tries to con a penalty out of the ref.
The ref fucked up, albeit in an somewhat far from uncommon manner as we see hundred of decisions over the years awarded in a similar vein. The difference here, is there is now a safety net in play for such decisions and one of its sole functions is to prevent game changing decisions.

That failed tonight. 'Game changing decision' trumps 'clear and obvious error' (the new shield for officials to be hidden behind). If I was that ref tonight, I think I'd be fuming that this happened, and more than thankful that the result went the way it did.
absolutely spot on this.

Personally myself, i think Joe Cole said it last night too. Because of the ref and it being such a massive deal about a woman ref in the final, I don't think they wanted to over rule her and make the scene. I thought she was brilliant but made a massive error for the goal which could have cost us the cup. VAR was meant to stop this kind of shit happening.
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Old 15-08-19, 06:34 AM   #483
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Which there was. Not enough contact to legislate for a penalty.
You're going to be frustrated with VAR this season if you think that was going to be overruled.

That said it wouldn't surprise me in three games from now there's an identical incident that is overruled given its a interpretation of the rules. But it'd be wrong to.

Thank fuck the penalty didn't matter in the end.
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Old 15-08-19, 06:37 AM   #484
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Adrian took him out with his legs. Stonewall penalty.
Every single one of the panel and commentary team even Jenas said it was not a penalty. That pic is so selective and honestly something I would expect to see on a Chelsea forum with them trying to justify the pen been given kinda thing. BT showed the correct angle last night and it was categorically not a penalty.
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Old 15-08-19, 06:54 AM   #485
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I thought it's not a penalty if the ball is not under control and is going out of play?
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Old 15-08-19, 07:01 AM   #486
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I thought it's not a penalty if the ball is not under control and is going out of play?
And going away from goal
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Old 15-08-19, 07:14 AM   #487
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The replays were conclusive.

It’s bullshit they dont have access to all the angles? Where else are they getting their video feeds from? And if they struggle with that then how are they going to call dives where the forward draws contact more effectively?

At best that was a tech malfunction this evening. If they look at all of this e clips VAR rules that as no pen every day of the week.

Common sense has to be used with VAR.

Offsides are totally different decisions so different criteria applies .
I get that, my point is why worry about whether someone is literally a cm offside or not, if we can refer a penalty like that to VAR and it stands because you can't prove that there wasn't the faintest contact, but what everyone can tell is that even if there was contact is wasn't enough of a pen. When both decisions have been referred to see if they are clearly and obviously wrong, to me it just seems that there is an imbalance in what is trying tobe achieved.
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Old 15-08-19, 07:27 AM   #488
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Adrian took him out with his legs. Stonewall penalty.
Utter bollocks. He was already going down before Adrian got to him. The perspective of the bilder is crap, there was at least 0.5 metres between them at this point. Tammy, lovely male name then went completley splayed and stiff legged to make it look worse and topped it all off with a forward somassault (sp) He is a cheating diving cunt

Another thing, he absolutley bottled his pelanty. He scared, nervous and couldnt focus prior to taking it
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Old 15-08-19, 07:28 AM   #489
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I thought it's not a penalty if the ball is not under control and is going out of play?
I know that this used to be the case I wouldn't be surprised if they had changed the rule on this though to be honest.

What criteria are VAR looking at because that is unclear. On the clear and obvious stuff they could be looking at all of the points but essentially deciding that they are all too close to call and letting the original decision stand.
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Old 15-08-19, 07:51 AM   #490
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You're going to be frustrated with VAR this season if you think that was going to be overruled.

That said it wouldn't surprise me in three games from now there's an identical incident that is overruled given its a interpretation of the rules. But it'd be wrong to.

Thank fuck the penalty didn't matter in the end.
I think it’s definitely clear that VAR is going to be frustrating given the hash that is being made of it so far.

But yes, thankfully justice was served!
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Old 15-08-19, 08:07 AM   #491
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I think that the thing we need to get used to with VAR is that decisions like this are still going to be in a no man's land between that is essentially not enough evidence to be overturned. We saw last night that the ref awarded it and VAR couldn't overturn it. Equally I think that if the ref hadn't given it but it was referred to VAR that there wouldn't be enough evidence to award it. Which is frustrating because the decision isn't always going to be right despite VAR
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Old 15-08-19, 08:37 AM   #492
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What was suspect was that the ref gave the penalty so quickly. She could've stopped play and consulted the assistant ref as there was a break in play.
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Old 15-08-19, 08:39 AM   #493
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I think that the thing we need to get used to with VAR is that decisions like this are still going to be in a no man's land between that is essentially not enough evidence to be overturned. We saw last night that the ref awarded it and VAR couldn't overturn it. Equally I think that if the ref hadn't given it but it was referred to VAR that there wouldn't be enough evidence to award it. Which is frustrating because the decision isn't always going to be right despite VAR
Exactly. I don't think it was a penalty but if there's any shade of grey around it VAR won't intervene, at least under the current rules.
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Old 15-08-19, 09:26 AM   #494
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VAR on decisions re pens will always be inconsistent. Different ref and video ref every game. Things are rarely ever clear cut.

Offside will always be right. It's black and white.

This is why VAR is the biggest cunts trick ever introduced to football.

You have long pauses, crowds celebrating no goals, players half celebrating waiting to check if it's good. I did last night, didn't celebrate until it was 100% ruled no foul play. Wolves manager nailed it, it's killing the spirit of the game in the hope of achieving perfection. Can't or won't ever happen.
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Old 15-08-19, 09:28 AM   #495
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It reminded me of ‘umpire’s call’ in cricket. She gave a pen and there wasn’t enough evidence to overrule her. If she hadn’t given it and it had been reviewed, there still wouldn’t have been enough to overrule her. We need more camera angles...but the ref’s call is still really important. She shouldn’t have given it. But if Mi had gone down in the same circumstance we’d say it was the keeper’s fault.
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Old 15-08-19, 09:33 AM   #496
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VAR on decisions re pens will always be inconsistent. Different ref and video ref every game. Things are rarely ever clear cut.

Offside will always be right. It's black and white.

This is why VAR is the biggest cunts trick ever introduced to football.

You have long pauses, crowds celebrating no goals, players half celebrating waiting to check if it's good. I did last night, didn't celebrate until it was 100% ruled no foul play. Wolves manager nailed it, it's killing the spirit of the game in the hope of achieving perfection. Can't or won't ever happen.
That offside rule (the playing on part) is nonsense it totally skews the perception of the game. The two ‘goals’ were clear offsides and they played on until Chelsea scored shot for everyone involved. Hitting the back of the net has to give a boost to a forward and negates the skill in a well organised defence.

What VAR needs to be clear on is that it is still human interpretation of data, the rules seem to be trying to make it almost robotic despite clear evidence. Human intervention on the evidence is still necessary.

There will still be some mistakes, of course, but VAR should be there to eliminate most of them. As it stands I think they are making an unnecessary mess of it.

Last edited by Buzzo; 15-08-19 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 15-08-19, 09:47 AM   #497
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Utter bollocks. He was already going down before Adrian got to him. The perspective of the bilder is crap, there was at least 0.5 metres between them at this point. Tammy, lovely male name then went completley splayed and stiff legged to make it look worse and topped it all off with a forward somassault (sp) He is a cheating diving cunt

Another thing, he absolutley bottled his pelanty. He scared, nervous and couldnt focus prior to taking it
Fantastic that the cheating prick bottled the pen
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Old 15-08-19, 09:49 AM   #498
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When we've suffered 'human error' and conceded unfair goals we've dreamed of a fair resolution. VAR for offside is great and I guess it needs to result in a shot on goal to work correctly.
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Old 15-08-19, 10:02 AM   #499
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Who cares if it was a pen or not? We won and they lost when the diving cunt missed his pen so it's all good.
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Old 15-08-19, 10:39 AM   #500
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Beautiful birra justice with that gobshite missing his pen. Can only imagine the chaos and uproar around the country today if it was Salah cheating like that. Also not quite sure how we weren't given a pen in the first half for that handball, we've seen handballs given for a ball clipping a guys fingernails down by his side nowadays yet a defender trying to be a goalkeeper is fine? Bizarre. Mount was also about 2 yards in the area when Jorginho took the pen. Not a great day for the officials or VAR. Again.

Anyway, glad we beat them twats and the 100 fans they had over there went home unhappy. Absolute nothing club.

Fuck knows how we are meant to find the energy to win on Saturday now, special shout out to Uefa for having a potential extra time game in fucking August and the Premier League for knowing that and making us play Saturday anyway. We seem to be a bigger game for Southampton fans than Portsmouth now and they give us hell for 20mins in each half last year so it's gonna be extremely tough but somehow we seem to overcome nearly every obstacle put infront of us.
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Old 15-08-19, 10:43 AM   #501
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I know VAR failed and ref made the mistake but where the fuck was the hot lino? She should have had a crystal clear view of that incident.
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Old 15-08-19, 11:10 AM   #502
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Do we still need linos now, other than throw in decisions? They aren't really needed for offsides, if the ref gets other big decisions wrong then Var can cover it. If the ref needs a second pair of eyes then use the VAR ref in communication in real time.
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Old 15-08-19, 11:16 AM   #503
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VAR didn't fail per-say. The stupid rules surrounding how it can be used failed. Oh and the ref for jumping to an (incorrect) decision.

The ref was great until that point. She was not sure that was a pen and the moment she gave it VAR became pretty pointless. VAR wont overturn that decision unless there was a clear yard of daylight between them.

Once the ref has given the pen VAR will go out of its way to support the ref unless it cant... that is the stupid way in which VAR is currently used.

She should have given the goal kick and then let VAR decide if it was a pen... that is the easier and less controversial way of dealing with it.

I hope eventually VAR will be an actual 5th official supported by the VAR team and can make decisions independently, that the ref must respect as they have the benefit of the technology.

I find it typical that after a season where we would have won the league with VAR we instantly suffer at the bullshit shortcomings in the rules on how it can be used.
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Old 15-08-19, 11:22 AM   #504
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That offside rule (the playing on part) is nonsense it totally skews the perception of the game. The two ‘goals’ were clear offsides and they played on until Chelsea scored shot for everyone involved. Hitting the back of the net has to give a boost to a forward and negates the skill in a well organised defence.

What VAR needs to be clear on is that it is still human interpretation of data, the rules seem to be trying to make it almost robotic despite clear evidence. Human intervention on the evidence is still necessary.

There will still be some mistakes, of course, but VAR should be there to eliminate most of them. As it stands I think they are making an unnecessary mess of it.
The offside changes are a fucking joke. Taking an already convoluted rule and making it even more so.

Defenders are now required to carry on defending/playing until they play concludes. This can end up putting the defence in an disadvantaged position i.e. under pressure in possession.

Not to mention that the play continuing could lead to an injury... very unlikely but still a possibility.

Also, the gaining an advantage from an offside position has now seemingly been fucked off completely and you are allowed to.
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Old 15-08-19, 11:57 AM   #505
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I thought both our centre backs did well last night but Gomez looked lost & half asleep way too often. I’d expect Trent, Matip , VVD & Robo on the weekend.
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Old 15-08-19, 12:08 PM   #506
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It has to be said the officials on the pitch did a good job
What? by giving a penalty where there wasn't one.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:00 PM   #507
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Beautiful birra justice with that gobshite missing his pen. Can only imagine the chaos and uproar around the country today if it was Salah cheating like that. Also not quite sure how we weren't given a pen in the first half for that handball, we've seen handballs given for a ball clipping a guys fingernails down by his side nowadays yet a defender trying to be a goalkeeper is fine? Bizarre. Mount was also about 2 yards in the area when Jorginho took the pen. Not a great day for the officials or VAR. Again.
He could have been ten yards inside the box and VAR wouldn't do anything if the ref doesn't.

VAR only comes into play on encroachment if the ball comes back into play, then there's a foul and obviously any subsequent goal is ruled out.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:11 PM   #508
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I thought both our centre backs did well last night but Gomez looked lost & half asleep way too often. I’d expect Trent, Matip , VVD & Robo on the weekend.
Same. We were badly exposed by the midfield (and Matip's passing), but individually, Matip, VVD and Robbo defended very well.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:35 PM   #509
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VAR on decisions re pens will always be inconsistent. Different ref and video ref every game. Things are rarely ever clear cut.



Offside will always be right. It's black and white.



This is why VAR is the biggest cunts trick ever introduced to football.



You have long pauses, crowds celebrating no goals, players half celebrating waiting to check if it's good. I did last night, didn't celebrate until it was 100% ruled no foul play. Wolves manager nailed it, it's killing the spirit of the game in the hope of achieving perfection. Can't or won't ever happen.


1,000,000% this. Completely agree.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:37 PM   #510
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But the City CL semi final was funny af, don't forget that.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:40 PM   #511
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I thought both our centre backs did well last night but Gomez looked lost & half asleep way too often. I’d expect Trent, Matip , VVD & Robo on the weekend.
Gomez clearly isn't a full back, he's a good CB but positionally he looks lost at full back and he doesn't offer much going forward.
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Old 15-08-19, 01:56 PM   #512
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That offside rule (the playing on part) is nonsense it totally skews the perception of the game. The two ‘goals’ were clear offsides and they played on until Chelsea scored shot for everyone involved. Hitting the back of the net has to give a boost to a forward and negates the skill in a well organised defence.

What VAR needs to be clear on is that it is still human interpretation of data, the rules seem to be trying to make it almost robotic despite clear evidence. Human intervention on the evidence is still necessary.

There will still be some mistakes, of course, but VAR should be there to eliminate most of them. As it stands I think they are making an unnecessary mess of it.
I have said all along that I don't believe that sufficient thought or explanation has been given to the fans as to how it works and particularly what it's limitations are. It's been presented as the magic solution which is going to ensure we get correct decisions for key incidents when in fact all it really is doing is in the case of penalties is ensuring we don't get the hideously bad errors, the moderate errors are still there. Contrast that with offside where there is this belief that you can get perfect calls everytime (personally I am sceptical about the ability to do this with the precision suggested).

Anyway personally I don't think VAR adds much to the games if we can perfectly determine a player is a cm offside, but we can't decide whether something should or shouldn't be a pen.
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Old 15-08-19, 02:23 PM   #513
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i reckon i could make a more reliable offside call than a linesman by using sky+ within 5 seconds of the pass. Just give the VAR the control, let on-field refs work under them, make decisions asap, and apply them on the field straight away. It wouldn't be perfect but would be a better balance, and we're can't be far off from AI refereeing on certain aspects (such as offside) in the top flight, and it would just need plugging to that process.
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Old 15-08-19, 02:58 PM   #514
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Old 15-08-19, 05:30 PM   #515
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You'd imagine the abuse was coming from opposing fans, then you realise it's Chelsea

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Old 15-08-19, 06:58 PM   #516
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Yeah I thought that initially also. It seemed unusual (but not impossible) considering the makeup of the team that finished the match for us about as diverse and cosmopolitan as you could wish to see.

Chelsea fans really are the lowest of the low.
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Old 16-08-19, 02:09 PM   #517
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Gomez clearly isn't a full back, he's a good CB but positionally he looks lost at full back and he doesn't offer much going forward.
Well if Gomez isn’t reliable to cover either fullback role, as we’d expected he might, it leaves us threadbare in cover doesn’t it! How long is Clyde out for?
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Old 16-08-19, 02:18 PM   #518
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Well if Gomez isn’t reliable to cover either fullback role, as we’d expected he might, it leaves us threadbare in cover doesn’t it! How long is Clyde out for?
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Old 17-08-19, 12:02 PM   #519
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that’s fringing auto correct for ya
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