It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register please click here...

est1892

Go Back   est1892 > Football > Liverpool FC

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 15-01-22, 08:34 AM   #41
Exiled_red
Paisley
 
Exiled_red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 46,238
Midfield issues seem to be raising their head again.

We need a massive overhaul in the summer IMO, looking at the 8 guys we have in there at the moment only Fabinho is/should be nailed on to start

Fabinho - key to our midfield setup
Thiago - quality player who improves the side when he's fit, problem is he misses alot of games
Milner - has been a good player for us but age has caught up with him
Keita - you feel there is a quality player in there but due to fitness issues has never really shown what he can do on a consistent basis
Henderson - has been top quaility, but his level has started to dip, key player in the dressing room but you feel he needs to be transitioned into the role Milner has played in recent years
Ox - Another affected by injury who can't be relied on
Jones - Still yet to prove himself, I had been hoping this year he could become a regular and show what he can do, but it hasn't happened so far
Elliott - was starting to establish himself before the injury, but it was still only a handful of games, still a work in progress.
__________________
The only gracious way to accept an insult is to ignore it; if you can't ignore it, top it; if you can't top it, laugh at it; if you can't laugh at it, it's probably deserved.
Exiled_red is offline   Reply With Quote
Advertisement.
Don't Like Adverts? (Register or Donate)
Liver Bird
Old 15-01-22, 10:47 AM   #42
kev776
Paisley
 
kev776's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,587
Keita has missed less games through injury than Henderson. He just isn't picked when Hendo/Fab/Thiago are available.

Ox hasn't missed a game this year.

For me, Jones can replace Milner and we need to invest big in a proper Gini/long term Hendo replacement because Thiago is way too fragile. We need 4 first choice mids, we only have 3 at the moment.

1st choice: Hendo/Fab/Thiago/New dude

Back up: Ox/Keita/Jones/Morton
kev776 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-22, 12:10 PM   #43
Exiled_red
Paisley
 
Exiled_red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 46,238
For me at the end of the season Milner is done, Next season Henderson will be 32 I don't see us being reliant on him as a regular starter as being a good thing unless there is an upturn in form, for me he needs to transition into the role Milner has played in recent years.

Thiago is or should be a starter when he's fit, but he misses alot of games. Keita is playing second fiddle to him and Ox third, I believe that there is a player in there with Keita he just is still yet to show it consistently, Ox is another who just seems done, he's capable of the odd moment but can be anonymous for long periods.

I'd be expecting Milner to move on, looking to replace Ox and be listening to offers for Keita and bring in a couple of new first team players
__________________
The only gracious way to accept an insult is to ignore it; if you can't ignore it, top it; if you can't top it, laugh at it; if you can't laugh at it, it's probably deserved.
Exiled_red is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-22, 11:26 PM   #44
Irishnev
Paisley
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,907
Ah the midfield.....right now it is a problem for us and for a couple of reasons:

1) Availability - we’ve spoken to death about this
2) Imbalance - this doesn’t mean that our midfield is unbalanced but rather we don’t have enough players who seamlessly slot into the role..... you could argue it is similar up front. This is the one thing City excel at - essentially plug and play regardless of injuries o rotation

Our midfield has 3 defined role:

- The deepest 6 who covers side to side, wins headers and stops counters at source. This is played superbly by Fabinho and Hendo is the nominal back up here. Hendo did really well in this role against sides where we have a lot of the ball but tracking runners isn’t his strong point and he is more effective going forward. None of the others are good as a replacement here - Morton was tried in a few games and Gini was the back up last season. I think he need to buy proper cover here - Zakaria for a small fee would give a lot if what Fab offers

- The left sided 8, this is the more defensive of the two 8s. This was Gini’s role and you could say it was the facilitator of the midfield. Always available (for the ball), never lose the ball, tactically astute to make up a double pivot when the right 8 was higher up. I think they saw Thiago as the replacement for Gini and he’d bring even more control - he has but he’s available a fraction of the time. The next best is Naby but again availability is a problem here. None of the rest are suited to this role because they are not disciplined enough - Ox, Hendo and Curtis all played there but the right side suits them better. I think that’s why Klopp has been playing Milner because he is more disciplined. I think we need cover here also - ideally someone who play as a 6 or as the left sided 8

- The right sided 8’s role has changed a bit this season. It seems to be even more attacking and Elliot was going really well there pre injury. This suits the skill set Hendo, Ox, Naby and Curtis the most. Box to box and interplay it with Trent and Mo - I think if everyone is fit then Klopp goes with Hendo here. The thing is his fitness and stamina aren’t what they were so we’ve seen him struggle to track runners and we’ve conceded a lot if goals down this channel. I think Elliot and Jones would cover this between them. Ox pre knee injury was excelling here.

So - let Milner leave on a free, Hendo takes his utility role. Sell Naby and Ox - it isnt going to happen for them. Buy a top midfielder who can play as the left 8 or deepest - Tchoumeni being linked.

Elliot, Hendo and Jones cover the right 8 over the season.
Thiago, Tchoumeni, Morton cover the left side
Fab and Tchoumeni voter the 6

We are putting square pegs in round holes - having available midfielders isn’t enough.....we need the right guys in the right part of the system to work
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-01-22, 11:49 PM   #45
baitman
Daddy day care
 
baitman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 23,167
At our level either "8's" should be more than capable of doing all that is required.
__________________
removing all the weak links makes us stronger

too many gutless players, no beef or desire. pussies everywhere... sack them all, but not VVD or Fabinho
baitman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 09:05 AM   #46
Irishnev
Paisley
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by baitman View Post
At our level either "8's" should be more than capable of doing all that is required.
But clearly they canít - Ox, Hendo, Jones and Milner have all been really poor on the left. Only Thiago and Naby have done well there and we know the problem with both of them....
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:11 AM   #47
nebbers
Fagan
 
nebbers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,125
Mention of Kalvin Phillips this morning. Interesting. Haven't seen much since world cup.
__________________
I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it.
nebbers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:24 AM   #48
Jaco_Pastorious
Paisley
 
Jaco_Pastorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by nebbers View Post
Mention of Kalvin Phillips this morning. Interesting. Haven't seen much since world cup.

Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.
__________________
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.
Jaco_Pastorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 11:52 AM   #49
Jaco_Pastorious
Paisley
 
Jaco_Pastorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishnev View Post
Ah the midfield.....right now it is a problem for us and for a couple of reasons:

1) Availability - weíve spoken to death about this
2) Imbalance - this doesnít mean that our midfield is unbalanced but rather we donít have enough players who seamlessly slot into the role..... you could argue it is similar up front. This is the one thing City excel at - essentially plug and play regardless of injuries o rotation

Our midfield has 3 defined role:

- The deepest 6 who covers side to side, wins headers and stops counters at source. This is played superbly by Fabinho and Hendo is the nominal back up here. Hendo did really well in this role against sides where we have a lot of the ball but tracking runners isnít his strong point and he is more effective going forward. None of the others are good as a replacement here - Morton was tried in a few games and Gini was the back up last season. I think he need to buy proper cover here - Zakaria for a small fee would give a lot if what Fab offers

- The left sided 8, this is the more defensive of the two 8s. This was Giniís role and you could say it was the facilitator of the midfield. Always available (for the ball), never lose the ball, tactically astute to make up a double pivot when the right 8 was higher up. I think they saw Thiago as the replacement for Gini and heíd bring even more control - he has but heís available a fraction of the time. The next best is Naby but again availability is a problem here. None of the rest are suited to this role because they are not disciplined enough - Ox, Hendo and Curtis all played there but the right side suits them better. I think thatís why Klopp has been playing Milner because he is more disciplined. I think we need cover here also - ideally someone who play as a 6 or as the left sided 8

- The right sided 8ís role has changed a bit this season. It seems to be even more attacking and Elliot was going really well there pre injury. This suits the skill set Hendo, Ox, Naby and Curtis the most. Box to box and interplay it with Trent and Mo - I think if everyone is fit then Klopp goes with Hendo here. The thing is his fitness and stamina arenít what they were so weíve seen him struggle to track runners and weíve conceded a lot if goals down this channel. I think Elliot and Jones would cover this between them. Ox pre knee injury was excelling here.

So - let Milner leave on a free, Hendo takes his utility role. Sell Naby and Ox - it isnt going to happen for them. Buy a top midfielder who can play as the left 8 or deepest - Tchoumeni being linked.

Elliot, Hendo and Jones cover the right 8 over the season.
Thiago, Tchoumeni, Morton cover the left side
Fab and Tchoumeni voter the 6


We are putting square pegs in round holes - having available midfielders isnít enough.....we need the right guys in the right part of the system to work


Think that is still one short, both in terms of quality and ability to suit a role.

Tchouameni would be a fantastic get as he can play in a few midifeld roles without a drop off in quality, though it is looking like being a box to box CM or a number 8 may be where his future lies.

Where I see a problem with your line ups is that there are a number of guys in it who could be out at the same time. Like if Fabinho and RThiago are out at the same time, then Tchouameni can only cover for one and there is a big drop off down to Morton.

Same with the RCM options. If Henderson is out at the same time as one of Thiago or Fabinho, then Tchouameni is again the cover that is not a big drop off, but all the rest are.


For me we need two in and three out as quality in depth is far more important that just numbers in depth something that becomes very clear if we look at City's squad compared to our squad.

Now they can spend a lot more than us, but in terms of squad size we have a far bigger squad than they do. Now we cannot compete with them in terms of what they can pay for a player and what they can pay a player, but if we trimmed our squad back in terms of numbers then surely we could try to have that bit more quality in the second string rather than lots of players who represent either a massive drop off on the guy ahead of them for the position or guys who are simply unreliable/untrusted.


Say we get Tchouameni and we add Zakaria as well for 7m or so now or get Zakaria on a free in the summer.

One is the big money punt on a guy who looks like he might be a seriously good player for years to come and one is a low cost punt on a guy who looks better than most of our current back ups for micfield but is a lot quicker and more physical than them (yes people will say Zakaria had a bad injury but that was in 2020 and he has successful surgery on it and he only missed time snce then for catching covid twice and for when he was getting back to full fitness between those bouts of covid) and would cost no more than Minamino cost us thanks to his contract almost being up and him knocking back a few offers of a new one.

Now you have Tchouameni there to cover CDM and one of the other CM slots be it the left cm role of the RCM role, and you also have Zakaria who cam play in CDM and also as a CM plus he is pretty decent at CB.


As well as now having two guys with decent pace, both over six foot, both technically good (though Tchouameni looks to be the real stand out one on that front), we suddenly have less of a drop off in any of the three cnetral midfield roles should someone be injured and we have five midfielders ranging from good to world class in quality all capable of competing for a starting berth as well as having Jones and Elliot nipping at heels, instead of having a situation like now where we have six senior midfielders (plus Eilliot and Jones as the heel nippers) but struggle to be able to put out a regular three and a three that look balanced.


Tchouameni and Zakaria are just an example of two that we have been linked to. Plenty of other midfielders have been linked to us. Nkunku (who would offer cover/competion for an attacking position as well as a midfield one), Barella (looks good enough to just walk into our first team especially in the RCM role). Keisse, Kamara, Bellingham and Sanches have also been linked with us so there is a right mix of prices there from low to high and a proper range of on pitch abilities there with most of the names being able to play to a high level in at least two different midfield positions.
__________________
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.
Jaco_Pastorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM   #50
Fosterbloke
Run the Jewels
 
Fosterbloke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 36,341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.
Like Robertson did for Hull?
__________________
Great Britain is really fucked.
Fosterbloke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:17 PM   #51
Jaco_Pastorious
Paisley
 
Jaco_Pastorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fosterbloke View Post
Like Robertson did for Hull?

Fair point as sometimes a player might need a move to show what they can really do.


Personally I don't see it with Kalvin Philips but then again I did say something very similar about Robertson when we were first linked with him whatever number of years back.
__________________
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.
Jaco_Pastorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM   #52
labourRed
Paisley
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 10,247
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.
Had a few injuries and playing as an emergency CB.

I'd be surprised if the injuries alone doesn't put us off, if the interest is genuine.
labourRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:08 PM   #53
Irishnev
Paisley
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
Think that is still one short, both in terms of quality and ability to suit a role.

Tchouameni would be a fantastic get as he can play in a few midifeld roles without a drop off in quality, though it is looking like being a box to box CM or a number 8 may be where his future lies.

Where I see a problem with your line ups is that there are a number of guys in it who could be out at the same time. Like if Fabinho and RThiago are out at the same time, then Tchouameni can only cover for one and there is a big drop off down to Morton.

Same with the RCM options. If Henderson is out at the same time as one of Thiago or Fabinho, then Tchouameni is again the cover that is not a big drop off, but all the rest are.


For me we need two in and three out as quality in depth is far more important that just numbers in depth something that becomes very clear if we look at City's squad compared to our squad.

Now they can spend a lot more than us, but in terms of squad size we have a far bigger squad than they do. Now we cannot compete with them in terms of what they can pay for a player and what they can pay a player, but if we trimmed our squad back in terms of numbers then surely we could try to have that bit more quality in the second string rather than lots of players who represent either a massive drop off on the guy ahead of them for the position or guys who are simply unreliable/untrusted.


Say we get Tchouameni and we add Zakaria as well for 7m or so now or get Zakaria on a free in the summer.

One is the big money punt on a guy who looks like he might be a seriously good player for years to come and one is a low cost punt on a guy who looks better than most of our current back ups for micfield but is a lot quicker and more physical than them (yes people will say Zakaria had a bad injury but that was in 2020 and he has successful surgery on it and he only missed time snce then for catching covid twice and for when he was getting back to full fitness between those bouts of covid) and would cost no more than Minamino cost us thanks to his contract almost being up and him knocking back a few offers of a new one.

Now you have Tchouameni there to cover CDM and one of the other CM slots be it the left cm role of the RCM role, and you also have Zakaria who cam play in CDM and also as a CM plus he is pretty decent at CB.


As well as now having two guys with decent pace, both over six foot, both technically good (though Tchouameni looks to be the real stand out one on that front), we suddenly have less of a drop off in any of the three cnetral midfield roles should someone be injured and we have five midfielders ranging from good to world class in quality all capable of competing for a starting berth as well as having Jones and Elliot nipping at heels, instead of having a situation like now where we have six senior midfielders (plus Eilliot and Jones as the heel nippers) but struggle to be able to put out a regular three and a three that look balanced.


Tchouameni and Zakaria are just an example of two that we have been linked to. Plenty of other midfielders have been linked to us. Nkunku (who would offer cover/competion for an attacking position as well as a midfield one), Barella (looks good enough to just walk into our first team especially in the RCM role). Keisse, Kamara, Bellingham and Sanches have also been linked with us so there is a right mix of prices there from low to high and a proper range of on pitch abilities there with most of the names being able to play to a high level in at least two different midfield positions.
Iím playing it safe but I also think we need 2, another forward and back up RB
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:23 PM   #54
Jaco_Pastorious
Paisley
 
Jaco_Pastorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishnev View Post
Iím playing it safe but I also think we need 2, another forward and back up RB


I think we need the exact same.

The only question for me is with regard the forward position whether it needs to be a wide forward (and then turning Jota into our starting striker/CF)) or getting a quality striker/CF and letting Jota compete with Mane for the starting LWF berth.

I am leaning more towards getting a striker as that way we have four players creating a situation where we have two that can play in each attacking slot.

LW - Mane/Jota
ST - New Guy/Jota
RW - Salah/Mane
__________________
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.
Jaco_Pastorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 03:59 PM   #55
Irishnev
Paisley
 
Irishnev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 10,907
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaco_Pastorious View Post
I think we need the exact same.

The only question for me is with regard the forward position whether it needs to be a wide forward (and then turning Jota into our starting striker/CF)) or getting a quality striker/CF and letting Jota compete with Mane for the starting LWF berth.

I am leaning more towards getting a striker as that way we have four players creating a situation where we have two that can play in each attacking slot.

LW - Mane/Jota
ST - New Guy/Jota
RW - Salah/Mane
I think a fresh Bobby has plenty left to offer us - heís more than capable of being a solid rotation option. The problem was he was being flogged to death and was never fresh.....
Irishnev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:18 AM   #56
Jaco_Pastorious
Paisley
 
Jaco_Pastorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 18,719
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishnev View Post
I think a fresh Bobby has plenty left to offer us - heís more than capable of being a solid rotation option. The problem was he was being flogged to death and was never fresh.....
In my eyes, if we had the four attacking players I mentioned, then Bobby would become the next tier down from them.

So instead of the drop off from our main guys being an Origi or Minamino, it would be Bobby.

Would have a similar view on midfield where I would make Henderson the new Milner from next season, and the drop off from the starters would be to Henderson.

And it is not that I would be expecting a tiny drop off for every single position, just that at least one of the drop off players for attack and midfield be good enough that the drop off is not as big as it currently is.

Right back is another position where were need to make the drop off in quality gap a bit less than it currently is.

Quality not quantity basically where possible
__________________
I don't hate people. I just feel better when they aren't around.
Jaco_Pastorious is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  est1892 > Football > Liverpool FC

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:57 PM.


Our Current Balance versus Target. Please help us: (Donate)

Kindly Hosted By DigitalWales
Any posts remain the responsibility of the poster. Neither est1892, its Owners nor any company affiliated will be held responsible from any disputes arising from these posts. The views raised are not necessarily those held by the website or its owners.

 

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.