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Old 05-11-06, 12:36 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphorino
Rafa was probably banking on having the Cisse money, so we don't know what might have been.
That's a very good point, actually.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:37 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Pennant ? Back up for 7m. And he's a criminal. Wow.

Gonzalez ? Jury is still well and truly out on this one.

Bellamy ? Any better than Cisse, I dont think so.
I notice how you overlooked Agger, Paletta and Carson

but lets see:

Gonzalez was like what 1.5 - 2 mil? Not exactly earth shattering if he doesn't make it, however his form in la liga suggested he would have what it takes and hasn't been given the time to prove him self yet.

Bellamy, I would say is most definitely better than Cisse has a better head on him and fits better into Rafa's tactics whereas Cisse obviously never. Why keep someone who doesn't fit?

Pennant, undecided but still needs to be given a season to produce, although I do fear we were stung over the price.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:38 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Pennant ? Back up for 7m. And he's a criminal. Wow.
That's a cheap shot Jamo. Come on you're better than that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Gonzalez ? Jury is still well and truly out on this one.

Bellamy ? Any better than Cisse, I dont think so.
How many games has Bellamy played for us? Again I think we need to wait a bit before writing him off.

On the whole our attacking options are significantly stronger than they were last year.

I'm off to bed fellas. Cya later.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:39 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Pennant ? Back up for 7m. And he's a criminal. Wow.
Kinell mate, i agree we overpaid, but let's keep it at least footie related.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:40 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by DJS
If we're gonna actually challenge for the title, we need to reach the point where the 'depth' is sufficient enough to allow us to spend an entire summer budget on just a couple of signings.
Agree on this, and don't you think we are nearly there now?

We need a Right Back
A replacement for Zenden in center mid

The rest is open to debate at the end of the season.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:43 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Morphorino
Agree on this, and don't you think we are nearly there now?

We need a Right Back
A replacement for Zenden in center mid

The rest is open to debate at the end of the season.
Dunno about nearly there mate.

We're woefully inferior in terms of wingers and, until Kuyt proves himself over a season, a goalscorer.

That said, i *am* in love with the daft-haired fecker already.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:43 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Pennant ? Back up for 7m. And he's a criminal. Wow.
What's that got to do with anything?
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Old 05-11-06, 12:43 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by DJS
Kinell mate, i agree we overpaid, but let's keep it at least footie related.
Fair play lads.

Apologies for the criminal comment, maybe replace it with 'chav' ?

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Old 05-11-06, 12:46 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphorino
I notice how you overlooked Agger, Paletta and Carson

but lets see:

Gonzalez was like what 1.5 - 2 mil? Not exactly earth shattering if he doesn't make it, however his form in la liga suggested he would have what it takes and hasn't been given the time to prove him self yet.

Bellamy, I would say is most definitely better than Cisse has a better head on him and fits better into Rafa's tactics whereas Cisse obviously never. Why keep someone who doesn't fit?

Pennant, undecided but still needs to be given a season to produce, although I do fear we were stung over the price.
Yeah, Gonzalez was fairly cheap, so I suppose it was a relatively 'no lose' situation.

I genuinely feel as though that 13m spent on Bellamy and Pennant could have been much, MUCH better spent.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:48 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Yeah, Gonzalez was fairly cheap, so I suppose it was a relatively 'no lose' situation.

I genuinely feel as though that 13m spent on Bellamy and Pennant could have been much, MUCH better spent.
Maybe so, who would you have spent it on? not forgetting Rafa seemed to think a striker and a right winger were both necessary
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Old 05-11-06, 12:50 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Yeah, Gonzalez was fairly cheap, so I suppose it was a relatively 'no lose' situation.

I genuinely feel as though that 13m spent on Bellamy and Pennant could have been much, MUCH better spent.
If Bellamy didn't have a clause in his contract he would have been far more expensive than the 6,000,000 we paid. I also think Pennant would have been more expensive had not Brum not been relegated.
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Old 05-11-06, 12:52 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Morphorino
Maybe so, who would you have spent it on? not forgetting Rafa seemed to think a striker and a right winger were both necessary
Well, seeing as we've got Crouch, Kuyt and Fowler, I would've kept either Cisse or Pongolle as the pacey, lively alternative up front and then splashed out the rest of the cash on a world class winger/attacking midfielder.

I like the look of Lennon, but maybe would have looked to bring in Ludovic Guily, Alves or, Jaoquin.

Tricky one.

Anyway, off to bed now.

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Old 05-11-06, 12:52 AM   #53
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I don't know about Gonzalez, some good things, some shite things, some pacy things, some slow things, some skillful things, some not so skillful things,
Looks too lightweight to me.

I'd say he's another that falls into the 'lets wait and see' category.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:02 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Well, seeing as we've got Crouch, Kuyt and Fowler, I would've kept either Cisse or Pongolle as the pacey, lively alternative up front and then splashed out the rest of the cash on a world class winger/attacking midfielder.

I like the look of Lennon, but maybe would have looked to bring in Ludovic Guily, Alves or, Jaoquin.

Tricky one.

Anyway, off to bed now.

Not bad, but we didn't get Kuyt right until the end of the window, so the striker thing doesn't really work out like that does it?

I think the Bellamy purchase was always on the cards, and i don't really have a problem with it.

the problem I see is that Cisse got crocked and we couldn't get the 8mil we wanted for him, so instead of 14/15mil to spend on a right winger, we only had 6/7mil so Rafa admittedly took a gamble on Pennant, which at first glance doesn't appear to have paid off.

Night by the way
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Old 05-11-06, 01:11 AM   #55
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Do you really think Marseille were about to hand over £8m for Cisse before he got injured?
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Old 05-11-06, 01:11 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by anfieldanfield
Well, seeing as we've got Crouch, Kuyt and Fowler, I would've kept either Cisse or Pongolle as the pacey, lively alternative up front and then splashed out the rest of the cash on a world class winger/attacking midfielder.

I like the look of Lennon, but maybe would have looked to bring in Ludovic Guily, Alves or, Jaoquin.

Tricky one.

Anyway, off to bed now.


What makes you think Alves is a world class winger?I dont think he has ever played there for sevilla and when I have seen him play he is not very good at beating players, the winger who plays in front of him most of the time creates the space for him.Guily is too old and would not cut it in the prem imo.

Joaquin would never fit into a rafa team he is very inconsistent and is lazy and not a team player.

Pennant has not showed what he can do this season but he is still played a part in a few goals.People say Pennant is over priced but never mention someone who is better then him who we could have got for less or the same price.He is not a world class player but when he gets more confident and gets a good run in the team he will get a lot of good crosses into the box and he also works hard for the team.

As for gonzalez I think he was signed as a good prospect a while back but then people saw the goals he scored and expected big things from him.He was not playing as great in la liga as everyone was making out and I think it will take him a while to adapt to the prem.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:16 AM   #57
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Do you really think Marseille were about to hand over 8m for Cisse before he got injured?
That was pretty much the cut and dry of it yep
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Old 05-11-06, 01:21 AM   #58
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I'm not happy with the "that's what you get if you allocate 10 milllion for 2 wingers" comment and the "I'd rather we bought a 15 million pound player".

During silly season many sensible lads like Tom and Lecter repeated time after time that Rafa doesn't work like that. He doesn't buy 15 million pound superstars, the big signings he has made (Reina, Alonso, Kuyt) have not been superstars but up and coming players with hunger and desire.
I think this is why Rafa doesn't go for big stars. Apart from their big egos there is also the problem that sometimes a big player arrives for a big fee and think they've an automatic right to a first team place, won't work with the rotation policy and settle into a comfort zone.
Up and coming players have a hunger to prove themselves as a super-star. That's the kind of player Wenger has always bought and I think Rafa has a similar philosophy.

As for Gonzalez, maybe someone knocked some sense into him
My tuppence worth.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:32 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morphorino
That was pretty much the cut and dry of it yep
And you're basing this on what evidence, if you dont mind me asking?
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Old 05-11-06, 01:32 AM   #60
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I dont see how people can have a problem with Bellamy either, I think so far he has done what rafa would have expected from him.I think rafa has said something like kuyt was bought to score the goals and bellamy was bought to create space for others and make goals.

Our team doesnt play to bellamys strengths, at blackburn they built the whole team around him and were always looking to play the ball throughj to him.We play to the strengths of kuyt and crouch and try to get the ball out wide and get crosses in.At newcastle they played to the strengths of shearer and bellamy would create space for him and do a lot of running for him.I think that is what rafa got him for, he will get a few goals but that is not all rafa wants from him.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:35 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Chilli
I'm not happy with the "that's what you get if you allocate 10 milllion for 2 wingers" comment and the "I'd rather we bought a 15 million pound player".

During silly season many sensible lads like Tom and Lecter repeated time after time that Rafa doesn't work like that. He doesn't buy 15 million pound superstars, the big signings he has made (Reina, Alonso, Kuyt) have not been superstars but up and coming players with hunger and desire.
I think this is why Rafa doesn't go for big stars. Apart from their big egos there is also the problem that sometimes a big player arrives for a big fee and think they've an automatic right to a first team place, won't work with the rotation policy and settle into a comfort zone.
Up and coming players have a hunger to prove themselves as a super-star. That's the kind of player Wenger has always bought and I think Rafa has a similar philosophy.

As for Gonzalez, maybe someone knocked some sense into him
My tuppence worth.
That's all well and good, but the sides that win titles TEND to have 'big stars' in them. Call them that if you like. I'll go with 'top class players'.

Yes, i know Rafa won La Liga with his methods, which was a great achievement, but in the PREMIERSHIP a team of pretty decent workers has never won the title.

I'm not dismissing his style or methods, i'm just saying that you CAN have the characteristics he wants, AND top drawer ability in the same player.

And as Arsenal have proven, you dont always need to spend record-breaking money to do it.

With regards to wingers, Robbem and Ronaldo cost what, 12m or so each?

Why cant we sign someone of that class for the wings? I dont actually care what they cost, i just was top quality. The problem is, that *usually* costs a few bob.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:38 AM   #62
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And as Arsenal have proven, you dont always need to spend record-breaking money to do it.
Doesn't this contradict what you've said? I compared Rafa's transfer philosophy to Wenger's because I think they're similar. The last Arsenal championship winning side (the unbeatables) didn't have any huge signings in it. I think Henry at 10 million (a snip) was the most expensive.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:40 AM   #63
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Doesn't this contradict what you've said? I compared Rafa's transfer philosophy to Wenger's because I think they're similar. The last Arsenal championship winning side (the unbeatables) didn't have any huge signings in it. I think Henry at 10 million (a snip) was the most expensive.
Not really, as i didnt specifically say you HAD to spend big to get good players, i just said your chances of getting good players SHOULD be increased if you're spending more, unless of course you're a complete tool

I'd love it if Rafa pulled out a world class winger for 7m, but it seems unlikely.

Main point being, if it proves impossible, let's just forego the 2 signings that cost say 13m for the pair, and spend it all on one top player.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:46 AM   #64
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OK I see what you're saying

But if anyone is gets frustrated that Rafa doesn't make big money signings then they need to relax a bit because Rafa will always stick to his methods.

I think Gonzalez will turn it round when he settles in. Pennant is another story but he deserves a bit of time.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:50 AM   #65
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Dont get me wrong, i'm not judging either of them now, they both need time.

But the opening few months are looking disappointingly familiar.
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Old 05-11-06, 01:54 AM   #66
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I think we will see a different Gonzo in the 2n half of the season (or at least I am hoping). He has had a tough time of it with injury and a virus which play on his fitness and his ability to settle both within the team and within the community. He is only 21 so we may not see the best of him until next season. I think he is worth it he has the ability just needs more time
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Old 05-11-06, 01:57 AM   #67
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I think we will see a different Gonzo in the 2n half of the season (or at least I am hoping). He has had a tough time of it with injury and a virus which play on his fitness and his ability to settle both within the team and within the community. He is only 21 so we may not see the best of him until next season. I think he is worth it he has the ability just needs more time
Totally agree with that
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Old 05-11-06, 02:08 AM   #68
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[QUOTE=DJS]Not really, as i didnt specifically say you HAD to spend big to get good players, i just said your chances of getting good players SHOULD be increased if you're spending more, unless of course you're a complete tool

QUOTE]

Someone's been playing too much Football Manager. And talking about splashing out big on players whilst mentioning Arsenal in the same post is always going to be contradictory...they're in exactly the same realm as us with regards to spending. Manure & Chelski are out there on their own, and look at how much they spent on Ballack & Shevchenko? Ballack has been average and Shevchenko has been poor. Ok they've only just got here but by the same token you can't have a go at the likes of Aurelio and Gonzalez, especially seeing as they cost a fraction of the money.

Or would people rather we were like Newcastle, with a similar budget but we just decide to blow it all on a couple of strikers who proceed to get injured, meaning that not only can the team not defend in the first place but can't score either? That policy has really got them far recently hasn't it.

Rafa is building us the same way Wenger built Arsenal - getting good young foreigners in while trying to develop what's already at the club too, buying c. 5m players for the squad, moulding the first team around several key players and attempting to improve that with c. 10m buys like Alonso & Kuyt. Personally I'm reluctant to see us spend any more than 15m on a player from outside the Prem, because arguably their chances of making it are no better than someone who comes for much less. How much did we spend on Momo, 4m? How much did Spurs spend on Zokora, double that, and who looks better? I'm no Pennant fan but I can see what Rafa was trying to do there, even if he did overpay. Still, I thought the same about Crouch and he's slowly looking more worth that 7m...and at the end of the day these are younger players who should only improve, and if they don't as someone else said, Rafa will have no problem getting rid.

Spending more on players doesn't guarantee success, it just means you'll fail bigger if they don't work out. And Chelski are an exception because they can just throw money at whoever and write off their losses.

People moaned last season because our squad wasn't big/good enough and we got stretched with injuries - now we've got that and they're still moaning. If people want Football Manager style buying, they might have a chance of it next year, especially if the club gets investment, because in theory by then Rafa should only need players to come straight in and improve the first team. But I wouldn't hold my breath.
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Old 05-11-06, 02:10 AM   #69
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Didnt read all that, but i think i made my point perfectly clear.

Obviously if you get good players cheap, then do it. But generally, your chances of signing a top player are usually increased if you're spending more. That's how it works, because the best usually cost.

I'd love to sign great players cheap, but thus far, Speedy and Pennant dont look good enough. Early doors yes, and i'm prepared to give them time, but in discussions about how they're looking, the truth is they dont look upto it yet.
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Old 05-11-06, 02:11 AM   #70
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Gonzos shiner was done by a senior player at the club, he was not injured but more like punished. The club did not want the news to go public so they fabricated it that he's injured .
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Old 05-11-06, 02:14 AM   #71
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I think so far Pennant has been the biggest disappointment, he has put in several very poor performances for us. Speedy is not quite so disappointing because the league is new to him, he's had less game time, and had injury to deal with. Looking to the future though who knows how good/bad they could prove to be for us, it's still early days for both of them.

Speedy looked like he was trying to hard when he came on again today. He is trying to play outside of himself when he just needs to relax and play his own game. We've seen him put in some nice crosses and deliver some good corners but I'm really hoping to see him take people on and beat them more than anything.

Pennant had the same problem as Speedy but I feel he has shaken the nerves off now, and it's more of a case of developing some understanding with his team-mates. I think as he plays more games we will see his confidence grow and the indecision that hampers him at times will leave his game. He really needs to work on his upper body strength though, he gets knocked off the ball too easily.
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Old 05-11-06, 02:15 AM   #72
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Didnt read all that, but i think i made my point perfectly clear.

Obviously if you get good players cheap, then do it. But generally, your chances of signing a top player are usually increased if you're spending more. That's how it works, because the best usually cost.

I'd love to sign great players cheap, but thus far, Speedy and Pennant dont look good enough. Early doors yes, and i'm prepared to give them time, but in discussions about how they're looking, the truth is they dont look upto it yet.
Maybe you should bother to take the time to read my point about Ballack & Shevchenko then
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Old 05-11-06, 02:16 AM   #73
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Very selective examples. Either Chelsea or Man Utd, who you acknowledge are the biggest spenders, are going to win the title...

See a correlation?
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Old 05-11-06, 02:16 AM   #74
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Didnt read all that, but i think i made my point perfectly clear.

Obviously if you get good players cheap, then do it. But generally, your chances of signing a top player are usually increased if you're spending more. That's how it works, because the best usually cost.

I'd love to sign great players cheap, but thus far, Speedy and Pennant dont look good enough. Early doors yes, and i'm prepared to give them time, but in discussions about how they're looking, the truth is they dont look upto it yet.
I'm sure there most grateful DJ.
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Old 05-11-06, 02:19 AM   #75
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I'm very there most grateful DJ.
Bonjour.

Me comprendez Englais.

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Old 05-11-06, 02:19 AM   #76
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I think so far Pennant has been the biggest disappointment, he has put in several very poor performances for us. Speedy is not quite so disappointing because the league is new to him, he's had less game time, and had injury to deal with. Looking to the future though who knows how good/bad they could prove to be for us, it's still early days for both of them.

Speedy looked like he was trying to hard when he came on again today. He is trying to play outside of himself when he just needs to relax and play his own game. We've seen him put in some nice crosses and deliver some good corners but I'm really hoping to see him take people on and beat them more than anything.

Pennant had the same problem as Speedy but I feel he has shaken the nerves off now, and it's more of a case of developing some understanding with his team-mates. I think as he plays more games we will see his confidence grow and the indecision that hampers him at times will leave his game. He really needs to work on his upper body strength though, he gets knocked off the ball too easily.
Yeah good point, he is a bit weedy. It's strange because I remember being fairly impressed with him a few times for the Brummies last season, but now he looks like a little boy lost. He seemed a bit of an MOTD player though - you saw him whipping in a few crosses on the highlights but that was about it...think he got quite a few assists if I remember rightly? I don't think Rafa sees him as the finished article yet, maybe more of a project that was worth it at the time seeing as he couldn't get Alves
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Old 05-11-06, 02:19 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDSCOUSER
Gonzos shiner was done by a senior player at the club, he was not injured but more like punished. The club did not want the news to go public so they fabricated it that he's injured .


Was it divine intervention
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Old 05-11-06, 02:21 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by DJS
Bonjour.

Me comprendez Englais.

Danke schon.
Don't know what your saying there but the 'Englais' makes me think
your having a pop at my English Grammer
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Old 05-11-06, 02:22 AM   #79
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Don't know what your saying there
That's an amazing coincidence, because i encountered the same feeling of confusion after your previous post.
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Old 05-11-06, 02:24 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDSCOUSER
Gonzos shiner was done by a senior player at the club, he was not injured but more like punished. The club did not want the news to go public so they fabricated it that he's injured .
Come on lad, reveal all here or at least PM me
My money's on Carra, he'd be the type to have a go if he sees a player isn't pulling his weight and rightly fucking so, just a hunch.
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