VAR thread

[Cormack74]

Originally Posted by Fredo

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/...44657727078400

They did it years ago with David Elleray. Arsenal were playing someone nondescript.

Tony Adams spent the entire time shouting at him, not swearing that I can recall but literally questioning every decision, sometimes bawling in his face. Elleray should have told him to shut up or leave the pitch but he just took it.

It will never properly happen - the FA PL etc would hate people to see what players are actually like on the pitch, whilst they half halfheartedly condemn people who use verbal and / or physical assaults against refs in grass roots football.

[labourRed]

Originally Posted by Fredo

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/...44657727078400

Yeah, but he's good, like a footballing Nigel Owens. Jon Moss would just be panting like the fat fuck that he is.

I'd like that here but can see the refs putting up some resistance.

[Tatterdemalion]

Originally Posted by S-RED

As a minimum requirement, they must adopt the Rugby system:

• Ref micked up
• Used only for clear & obvious errors
• The on-field ref can ask for opinion from VAR ref,
• The VAR ref cannot influence the on-field ref until opinion is asked for
• Reviews shown on stadium screens
• Review in real-time from various angles
• Slow-mo only used when in real-time repeats have been shown

Would agree, except I think the VAR Ref should be in charge.

[Buzzo]

Originally Posted by Fredo

https://twitter.com/btsportfootball/...44657727078400

I may have posted this before , but that is as it is one Rugby. And it works.

It will force players to respect the officials.

[Exiled_red]

The last couple of weeks and our last couple of games have raised some points about VAR, which I don't think is fit for purpose as it currently stands. A few talking points:

1) The Chelsea goal vs Cardiff obviously this would have been ruled out by VAR

2) Spurs goal vs us: the moving ball apparently VAR won't be used for things such as this (determining whether a freekick is taken with a moving ball, whether the ball is the area for a corner or not etc)

3) Our goal first goal vs Southampton, possibility of Salah being offside in the build up, because we didn't score from that and Southampton had a couple of chances to clear that would apparently be allowed to stand, but had we scored directly from that then the goal would have been disallowed.

4) The offside given against us vs Southampton that wasn't offside. - Assistant referees will be discouraged from putting their flags up for tight calls, they will then let the play continue and review with VAR, but if the game is stopped obviously nothing can be done.

My thoughts on these are VAR should only really overrule in situation 1, where something is clearly wrong. Azpilicueta was clearly offside and you shouldn't really need VAR to spot that.

I am not in favour of VAR being used to overrule tight call situations like situation 2, the question about whether Salah was offside or not is IMO silly I'm not saying that just because it was one of our players but if you need to freeze play and draw a line across the pitch and determine that someone's foot is about an inch or two beyond the last defender, yes technically that is offside but there is no way that can realistically be spotted by a linesman, if we are after this level of accuracy games will take forever and you might as well do away with the assistants running the line completely. I think that there needs to be some level of assistants call being upheld unless they are clearly wrong (as in situation 1). I guess that the problem is 'clearly' wrong is very subjective. I think that the changes to the definition of the offside rule have led to this (any part of your body that you can score with...) IMO the offside rule of 20 or so years ago would be a more VAR appropriate measure it would be a more 'clear and obvious' overrule which was what VAR was originally supposed to be about. I know that this view is probably unpopular, but that's my thought.

Linked to point 2 is point number 4. The idea of assistants not flagging tight calls so that VAR can have the final say essentially makes the assistants pointless for offsides, and will pose problems for the quality of officiating in competitions where VAR is not used such as the lower leagues. If however the assistant wrongly flags there is still nothing that can be done about it.

From point 2 how far back are we prepared to go in a move to spot infringements? The suggestion from last night's game was that Salah's offside wouldn't have caused our goal to be ruled out because Southampton had had chances to clear. I guess we are to phases of play territory here, this doesn't just apply to offsides, I guess that there are fouls etc in the build up that could come into play too. But this is something that no-one really seems to know.

Point number 3 again in my version of the use of VAR I wouldn't be bothered about this either. But in the level of VAR currently being suggested where we are concerned whether a striker's toe is an inch or two beyond the last defender surely it can be argued that the taking of a quick freekick with a moving ball is likely to have at least as much influence on the outcome of a game as a striker being an inch or two offside. I appreciate that this might seem pedantic, but the use and implications of VAR doesn't seem to have been considered, it just seems to be viewed as a magic tool that will solve all the problems with officiating, and IMO I don't think enough thought or planning has gone into it's use.

[Kenneth]

I don't really have anything to add, very good points.

[Red_Polo]

How do you define a tight call on VAR? Once you do, won't there just be tight calls on whether something is a tight call? If you decide to review a situation I think you have to do it properly, using the same rules we always do.

Yes, a smidge offside often makes no real impact and is only technical, but that goes the same as if the lino calls it. It's really a problem of the rule and not of VAR.

Linos being asked not to flag tight calls is a tricky onr. I suppose it really means re-emphasising the 'benefit of doubt to attacker' when they evaluate likelihood they were offside. I can see it causing some teething problems and more goals being disallowed by VAR if the officials are too reluctant to flag themselves, but it's really just a question of the officials recalibrating the level of certainty they need to feel before flagging and striking a balance. The exact guidance they get will be huge here.

[Red_Polo]

I agree with points 2 and 3 being correct, this is as it should be.

[Exiled_red]

Originally Posted by Red_Polo

How do you define a tight call on VAR? Once you do, won't there just be tight calls on whether something is a tight call? If you decide to review a situation I think you have to do it properly, using the same rules we always do.

Yes, a smidge offside often makes no real impact and is only technical, but that goes the same as if the lino calls it. It's really a problem of the rule and not of VAR.

Linos being asked not to flag tight calls is a tricky onr. I suppose it really means re-emphasising the 'benefit of doubt to attacker' when they evaluate likelihood they were offside. I can see it causing some teething problems and more goals being disallowed by VAR if the officials are too reluctant to flag themselves, but it's really just a question of the officials recalibrating the level of certainty they need to feel before flagging and striking a balance. The exact guidance they get will be huge here.

Originally Posted by Red_Polo

I agree with points 2 and 3 being correct, this is as it should be.

I agree with problems with the offside being with the offside rule rather than VAR specifically and tried to discuss that in the previous post, but VAR highlights them.

In terms of what is a tight call I think that perhaps giving different guidance to a VAR official which is more in line with the older definition of the offside rule where if a player looks level it's the "assistant referee's call" (like an umpire's call in LBW in cricket reviews. Alternatively you don't give them lines on the screen an a single frame to look at. I don't have an answer for this, but I don't see that the proposed system is going to help or be good for the game.

To me it seems unclear as to what we want from VAR. Originally it was originally supposed to be for overturning clear and obviously wrong decisions. An offside decision that you can only tell based on looking at a single frame with a line across the screen showing that a player's toe is a couple of inches offside can't be clearly or obviously wrong. If we want that level of accuracy surely we want it for every decision so why are there some things that VAR won't consider (like a moving ball from a quickly taken freekick)? If we want that level of accuracy then there are consequences - we have to accept that there could be alot of stoppages of a couple of minutes in the game, resulting in loss of momentum for teams and games lasting alot longer. This seems to be something that isn't really being considered by the footballing authorities. One way to offset this could be to have a VAR official and not have the referee going over to look at a video screen and VAR official questions or gets info from them, but as I say that's not what they are proposing doing.

[Chris]

A blatant red for Kyle Walker still just a yellow after VAR, this whole thing is shit, Utd and City games are still bent as fuck.

[Red_Polo]

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[Kenneth]

Still not sure why the Barca penalty was overturned by VAR. Even the VAR replay seems to show contact with the right leg first.

[RedAndWhite]

I like VAR

[Kenneth]

A few good uses tonight, all ending up with the right answers. Ours took longer than necessary though.

[Buzzo]

VAR hitting the town tonight.

[spud_gun]

[baitman]

LiVARpool

[foresterbloke]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Still not sure why the Barca penalty was overturned by VAR. Even the VAR replay seems to show contact with the right leg first.

The Fred tackle? I saw Fred get the ball first then the Barca player falling over his leg.

[calvoboy]

Fifa and Uefa have got VAR right. Mike Riley has got it wrong. We should just implement exactly the same system as we've seen tonight and in the World Cup - ref has final say, everyone knows what's going on.

[Leyton388]

Poor City. So near yet so VAR away.

[Kenneth]

Originally Posted by foresterbloke

The Fred tackle? I saw Fred get the ball first then the Barca player falling over his leg.

To me the replay showed Fred making contact with the right calf, then playing the ball, then the striker falling over Fred with his left leg. First contact looked like a foul to me.

From 56 seconds..

Barcelona vs Man Utd (3-0) | UEFA Champions League Highlights - YouTube

Barcelona vs Man Utd (3-0) | UEFA Champions League Highlights - YouTube

[Exiled_red]

I know I have a downer on VAR but having watched the game tonight there are a couple of things that occured to me that are VAR related issues, and again they relate to things not really being thought through or inconsistencies in where it can and can't be applied.

The first thing that occured to me was the Fabinho booking for me that is a perfectly good challenge and the referee wrongly books him, that is about 10-15 mins into the game which potentially has a huge impact on the way that he plays, if he makes another slip up he could find himself getting a 2nd yellow card, this would have a huge impact on the game, but yellow card offences aren't reviewable by VAR so nothing could be done if this were to happen.

The second one is the handball from Vidal, just before half time, it's a clear handball on the edge of the box that the referee missed, again this isn't reviewable because it was outside the area, if it were a couple of yards further back it would have been reviewable as a penalty.

Now as I've mentioned before I'm not a big fan of the interference of VAR, but these types of incident in my opinion are potentially going to have a greater impact on games than whether a player is an inch offside. VAR seems to be being suggested as a magic solution to refereeing the game, but the more I learn about where it can and can't be applied the more I am convinced that it is going to be a farce.

[baitman]

Funny how refs can conveniently ignore var when it suits them

[BobTheCharmer]

Absolute farce tonight in Portugal game. Swiss claim a pen, goes down other end and Portugal then get a legitimate claim themselves. Eventually Swiss get theirs awarded. In a fast paced game I don't think it works.

[foresterbloke]

Originally Posted by BobTheCharmer

Absolute farce tonight in Portugal game. Swiss claim a pen, goes down other end and Portugal then get a legitimate claim themselves. Eventually Swiss get theirs awarded. In a fast paced game I don't think it works.

Why? Makes sense as effectively the next phase of play wouldn't have happened if the penalty was given in the first place.

[Exiled_red]

Watching it in womens world cup, Argentina awarded a pen by VAR, not clear whether it was a pen or not. Pen is saved by the GK, but it is retaken as the GK moves forward as the ball is struck, pen incident is in the 85th min, finally scored in the 94th, full time whistle goes in the 95th min

We saw in the womens world cup earlier pens being retaken after another Gk moved off the line, technically correct decision but I don't see how you can expect a GK to do anything on a pen if they aren't allowed to even move slightly off their line.

Next season there will be a hell of alot of pens and a significant number of saves wiped out. I think that it is going to make football a farce.

[Shaggy]

That is absolutely outrageous

[Buzzo]

I just watched that.

Fucking hell. What a shambles. Was a clear pen tbf, but took about 5 mins to get to the decision. Then saved and rebound saved. Apparently it’s now a retake if the keeper moves even slightly off the line so retake which took us to 90+4. The ref only played 1 additional minute.

If VAR is used like that it will destroy the game.

If the keeper has to stay on the line like that (she effectively had to start a metre behind to get momentum to dive) then pens are so loaded in favour of the attackerntoud as well give a goal.

[Buzzo]

Originally Posted by Exiled_red

Watching it in womens world cup, Argentina awarded a pen by VAR, not clear whether it was a pen or not. Pen is saved by the GK, but it is retaken as the GK moves forward as the ball is struck, pen incident is in the 85th min, finally scored in the 94th, full time whistle goes in the 95th min

We saw in the womens world cup earlier pens being retaken after another Gk moved off the line, technically correct decision but I don't see how you can expect a GK to do anything on a pen if they aren't allowed to even move slightly off their line.

Next season there will be a hell of alot of pens and a significant number of saves wiped out. I think that it is going to make football a farce.

I didn’t notice you’d already posted this!!!

[baitman]

They'll just end up not diving and stand big to save the ones down the middle.

[Buzzo]

The keeper should be allowed to move off the line FFS...!

It’s going to be fucking bedlam with retaken pens next season which will lead to loads of aggro in the stands.

[Exiled_red]

This might sound stupid but consistency in this rule is going to be a nightmare, are they going to review every saved penalty and for how long? From the picture Shaggy posted it's difficult to see if her foot is on/over or off the line. We could end up in the position where VAR takes 5 mins to decide whether it is a pen or not, then spend another 5 mins deciding whether the keeper's save stands or if the pen has to be retaken.

[topscorer]

Originally Posted by Exiled_red

This might sound stupid but consistency in this rule is going to be a nightmare, are they going to review every saved penalty and for how long? From the picture Shaggy posted it's difficult to see if her foot is on/over or off the line. We could end up in the position where VAR takes 5 mins to decide whether it is a pen or not, then spend another 5 mins deciding whether the keeper's save stands or if the pen has to be retaken.

This new rule + VAR is going to completely undermine the success/failure of the first season with VAR.

Bringing in VAR is supposed to reduce contentious moments not increase them.

With that rule you might as well just give a penalty goal like in rugby and do away with the farce of taking and retaking the penalty completely.

[Exiled_red]

Originally Posted by topscorer

This new rule + VAR is going to completely undermine the success/failure of the first season with VAR.

Bringing in VAR is supposed to reduce contentious moments not increase them.

With that rule you might as well just give a penalty goal like in rugby and do away with the farce of taking and retaking the penalty completely.

The other thing is if it is the keeper who gave away the pen, if they get a booking for that it could be in their interest not to try to save the pen because if they take their foot off the line that could be a 2nd booking and a sending off

[Exiled_red]

The other issue with VAR for me is if we are going to agonise over these tiny margins on decisions it is going to amplify other errors made by officials which aren't VAR reviewable.

The impact the official had on tonights game was huge, as I say foul for the pen took place in about the 85th minute and the goal was scored in the 93rd or 94th minute and the full time whistle went a minute later. To my mind there should have been 5 mins or so of normal time plus stoppage time (given the number of goals and subs in that half probably between 4 and 5 mins) meaning the referee blew the full time whistle about 8 minutes early. That is a massive cock up which could have had as much (if not more) impact on the out ome than the penalty, but little is said about that.

[peterbread]

I had two seasons of VAR in Australia and I hate it and want it gone. The majority of ex players/pundits hate it and it still gets so much wrong. When you’re at the game and something is happening and you don’t know what it’s ridiculous. Plus you see the replay on the big screen and it just winds up the fans especially when it’s wrong. It’s got worse over the two years. Get rid of it and don’t bother.

Goal line technology is fine as it’s quick and clear. That type of thing works, VAR is still down to someone’s opinion. With offsides here they don’t use those lines they have on replays. Why not? If you’re going to use it do it properly. Two years of VAR and in both seasons grand finals they have messed it up.

[Exiled_red]

Originally Posted by peterbread

I had two seasons of VAR in Australia and I hate it and want it gone. The majority of ex players/pundits hate it and it still gets so much wrong. When you’re at the game and something is happening and you don’t know what it’s ridiculous. Plus you see the replay on the big screen and it just winds up the fans especially when it’s wrong. It’s got worse over the two years. Get rid of it and don’t bother.

Goal line technology is fine as it’s quick and clear. That type of thing works, VAR is still down to someone’s opinion. With offsides here they don’t use those lines they have on replays. Why not? If you’re going to use it do it properly. Two years of VAR and in both seasons grand finals they have messed it up.

Do you support a team in Australia or do you watch as a neutral?

One of my big fears about VAR is that it will take away my love of the game when it starts impacting LFC, so far we have avoided the drama of having thought we have won a game only for VAR to rule out a late winner or similar, but it is only a matter of time. I worry that by the time you have had a few of those decisions you stop having the pure emotion from those goals because you are waiting to see if it will be disallowed. Have you had this experience?

[Exiled_red]

I think a friend of mine summed up VAR fairly well

VAR is applying the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the rules, while I am sure the rules lawyers love it, that's not how fans want to see the game

[peterbread]

Originally Posted by Exiled_red

Do you support a team in Australia or do you watch as a neutral?

One of my big fears about VAR is that it will take away my love of the game when it starts impacting LFC, so far we have avoided the drama of having thought we have won a game only for VAR to rule out a late winner or similar, but it is only a matter of time. I worry that by the time you have had a few of those decisions you stop having the pure emotion from those goals because you are waiting to see if it will be disallowed. Have you had this experience?

I support Brisbane. Been a season ticket holder for 5 years. While they have gone backwards, which I can take, the VAR kills it. It takes too long, you don’t know what’s happening and even if it is a correct decision you can’t help but feel you’ve be done. I remember reading that Brisbane had been on the wrong end of more mistakes than any other team. Don’t know if it’s true but it feels like it.

One problem is they show the replay of a goal and you can see somethings off and every knows it but they don’t check. Players have started waiting for replays and saying to the ref look can you check it but they don’t. It just frustrates so much and takes away some of the drama and fun. Then when it all looks good they check and it goes on and on. I sometimes feel like the refs are protecting each other and not making any changes when they should.

Penalties are the worst because one refs says yes but the other says no so no one is happy in the end. It was supposed to be clear errors but even those aren’t changed. The number of dodgy penalties still given and not overturned is ridiculous. Doesn’t stop blatant diving.

I could rant for ages, I just hate it and don’t see it working. I mean two grand finals with VAR and both times it’s fucked it up!

[Tatterdemalion]

It's simple - the main ref should be in the studio. It would work so much better.