Southampton vs Liverpool - Premier League (20/21 - Game 17)

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

We played the first team in a dead rubber recently. we have options in attack on the bench but rigidly stick to our regular front 3. If fatigue is an issue we certainly aren't mitigating it.

Are you talking about the Midtjyland game?

[Kenneth]

Yes, that game. Hendo, Mane, Robbo, Firmino all traveled and played also.

[wiw]

Originally Posted by Paul12

The way we play has got very lazy. Once upon a time our creativeness went through the midfield, with clever passing and clever runs. Over time though our central midfielders have turned - probably in response to teams packing the central area - into hod carriers moving the ball from side to side (for the fullbacks to do the creating) or launching the ball long from deep positions. As a result, the strikers have become used to being customers of long balls and balls from outwide and tend not to play together. The Ox and Naby were bought to change that, because they are midfielders that attack the penalty area - Shaq ditto. And Thiago is also an attempt to change that. Change is needed because teams are packing the wings too, but at the moment fitness issues involving all three of them mean we are stuck playing a type of football that has been found out. Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

Good post

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

Yes, that game. Hendo, Mane, Robbo, Firmino all traveled and played also.

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

[Exiled_red]

Originally Posted by Paul12

The way we play has got very lazy. Once upon a time our creativeness went through the midfield, with clever passing and clever runs. Over time though our central midfielders have turned - probably in response to teams packing the central area - into hod carriers moving the ball from side to side (for the fullbacks to do the creating) or launching the ball long from deep positions. As a result, the strikers have become used to being customers of long balls and balls from outwide and tend not to play together. The Ox and Naby were bought to change that, because they are midfielders that attack the penalty area - Shaq ditto. And Thiago is also an attempt to change that. Change is needed because teams are packing the wings too, but at the moment fitness issues involving all three of them mean we are stuck playing a type of football that has been found out. Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

The running off the ball has largely gone, probably because teams are playing so deep there is no space in behind. Teams are letting us have possession in front of their defence and denying us space through the middle meaning that we can't use the pace and trickery of Mane and Salah, and hence the lack of goals and chances for them. Teams are also happy for us to pack the middle and let us sling crosses in from deep because most sides have an aerial advantage over our forwards and would probably back themselves to clear the danger playing the numbers game.

The solution would seem to be get players into midfield who are capable of creating space or picking a pass in tight areas: Thiago Shaqiri, Ox, Keita etc. So while I think that the idea behind the tactics last night was probably right, it was just poorly executed perhaps due to Ox, Thiago (and later Shaqiri) not having played much, or Thiago not being used to the league. I guess the hope was with Henderson behind them at CB it would be like having him at the back of the midfield with the more creative players in front of him. It just didn't really work out. Henderson needs to be in midfield, he did OK at CB but really didn't look comfortable there and the team suffered.

If we are going with these more creative guys in midfield we need them to produce the passes or take on shots from distance or just give us other options, the other option is to try and play with a more traditional centre forward who can punish teams who sit deep but I don't really like that option.

We are still at the top of the league but Man City and Man Utd could go ahead of us if they get results in their games in hand, and see us dragged back into that pack of 8 or so sides who are up there. Our form at the moment is shocking, we have only picked up 13 points from our last 8 games (3 of which have been against sides in the bottom 4), we have to halt this awful run of form now, because if it goes on much longer we will be making things very difficult for ourselves.

[Scratch]

Originally Posted by Pepe79

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

Salah and Jota both needed match time, Salah was just back from Covid and Jota was a regular sub. It was just unfortunate that Jota took a knock.

[Norbs]

Originally Posted by Paul12

Maybe we need to try Trent in midfield and see if his booming shooting and general box-to-box approach might cause the sort of havoc needed to unsettling teams with 10 men buses.

Funnily enough, I said the same after the Newcastle game

Originally Posted by Norbs

Our best strikers of the ball are playing at full back and centre back so are never going to get a chance to shoot. Our biggest threat at corners is injured and that leaves us a lot less dangerous

[Kenneth]

Originally Posted by Pepe79

Hendo 30 mins, Mane 3 mins, Robbo 30 mins (replacing injured player) Firmino 20 mins. Fabinho subbed off at half time too.

Salah and Trent the only 2 of the regular starting XI to play the full game.

I understand some would have preferred the first teamers rested completely, but that’s still a heavily rotated team with obvious attempts at mitigating the players playing time.

We took players to Denmark and played them in a competitive game when we didn't need to, and we're speculating that fatigue is harming our prospects, particularly among the front three. By insisting they play nearly every game, even during questionable form, and starving Taki and Shaq, in particular, of game time, we aren't managing fatigue as we could, IF it is an issue.

[danperkins]

Originally Posted by Exiled_red

The running off the ball has largely gone, probably because teams are playing so deep there is no space in behind. Teams are letting us have possession in front of their defence and denying us space through the middle meaning that we can't use the pace and trickery of Mane and Salah, and hence the lack of goals and chances for them. Teams are also happy for us to pack the middle and let us sling crosses in from deep because most sides have an aerial advantage over our forwards and would probably back themselves to clear the danger playing the numbers game.

The solution would seem to be get players into midfield who are capable of creating space or picking a pass in tight areas: Thiago Shaqiri, Ox, Keita etc. So while I think that the idea behind the tactics last night was probably right, it was just poorly executed perhaps due to Ox, Thiago (and later Shaqiri) not having played much, or Thiago not being used to the league. I guess the hope was with Henderson behind them at CB it would be like having him at the back of the midfield with the more creative players in front of him. It just didn't really work out. Henderson needs to be in midfield, he did OK at CB but really didn't look comfortable there and the team suffered.

If we are going with these more creative guys in midfield we need them to produce the passes or take on shots from distance or just give us other options, the other option is to try and play with a more traditional centre forward who can punish teams who sit deep but I don't really like that option.

We are still at the top of the league but Man City and Man Utd could go ahead of us if they get results in their games in hand, and see us dragged back into that pack of 8 or so sides who are up there. Our form at the moment is shocking, we have only picked up 13 points from our last 8 games (3 of which have been against sides in the bottom 4), we have to halt this awful run of form now, because if it goes on much longer we will be making things very difficult for ourselves.

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

We took players to Denmark and played them in a competitive game when we didn't need to, and we're speculating that fatigue is harming our prospects, particularly among the front three. By insisting they play nearly every game, even during questionable form, and starving Taki and Shaq, in particular, of game time, we aren't managing fatigue as we could, IF it is an issue.

Shaq has been unavailable for most of the season? Injuries across the board are clearly affecting our ability to rotate without compromising too far on quality.

Fair enough on Taki, you’d think he could have featured more than he has so far. But in terms of effectively rotating the front 3 it’s Jota’s injury that’s impacted that the most.

And yes I know, he got injured in that Midtjyland game, but he was playing because we didn’t start 2 of the regular front 3.

[vlahka]

Just so we can rage internally some more. And maybe externally.

[calvoboy]

I don't think (1) should ever be given as a handball, but we've seen them given. Same goes for the Mane penalty shout - it's one where VAR wouldn't overturn the ref's decision either way.

The other fouls are pretty blatant, and when you look at the "foul" for the free-kick they scored from it's annoying they weren't given. Not really game-changing though. I'm still more concerned by our performance than the ref's.

[Kenneth]

Originally Posted by Pepe79

Shaq has been unavailable for most of the season? Injuries across the board are clearly affecting our ability to rotate without compromising too far on quality.

Fair enough on Taki, you’d think he could have featured more than he has so far. But in terms of effectively rotating the front 3 it’s Jota’s injury that’s impacted that the most.

And yes I know, he got injured in that Midtjyland game, but he was playing because we didn’t start 2 of the regular front 3.

It becomes an question of whether to weaken the team by fatiguing certain players, or by substituting certain players with inferior ones occasionally. Personally, the latter seems more sustainable, and the former isn't going well.

[Buzzo]

We've also got loads of player who are looking to play there way into form from injury or from not having had any game time and get few minutes to do so. Minamino is a prime example, played his best 90 for us by far against Palace, and then loses all momentum by not getting a kick for the next three games.

It is a balancing act, but we do seem to be solely reliant on Mane, Salah and Firmino, who have delivired for 3 years, but now we do need trusted, or to trust, the back up.

[Shaggy]

Neither were penalties imo but it's fucking infuriating all the same

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[Exiled_red]

For me the issue is not whether I or anyone else think that it should or shouldn't be a penalty the issue is one of consistency. If the handball last night wasn't a penalty then the Gomez one posted above shouldn't be one either (along with a number of others), but given the precedent set by the Gomez one (and others) the players and us as fans have a right to feel aggrieved. The same with the Mane one, given the Pogba one a week or so ago if that is the standard for a penalty then the one on Mane should have been given.

VAR is doing nothing to help, all it does is make it more amplify the inconsistencies.

The more I watch football the less I understand the rules, I don't know what a penalty is, a handball is or an offside is anymore

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

It becomes an question of whether to weaken the team by fatiguing certain players, or by substituting certain players with inferior ones occasionally. Personally, the latter seems more sustainable, and the former isn't going well.

Of course, but the options to rotate obviously becomes limited the more injuries you have to the 1st team squad, and we have loads. It’s not like we haven’t been fielding back ups like Rhys, Neco, Nat and Kelleher at all. We could use reserves/youth more often, but that comes with it’s own risks in drop offs in the team’s performance level.

[Kenneth]

I'm thinking specifically about the front three. We did rotate with Jota and it went well, but we scored 7 with Taki starting in attack and he's not played since. Shaw is class for Switzerland in Salah's position but doesn't get time, even Origi as a target in the centre might have some merit. Or a striker that lots of people have been calling for for several windows. We've been unlucky with injuries in defense and midfield, but our recent issues have been with first choicers near the goal.

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Buzzo

We've also got loads of player who are looking to play there way into form from injury or from not having had any game time and get few minutes to do so. Minamino is a prime example, played his best 90 for us by far against Palace, and then loses all momentum by not getting a kick for the next three games.

It is a balancing act, but we do seem to be solely reliant on Mane, Salah and Firmino, who have delivired for 3 years, but now we do need trusted, or to trust, the back up.

I think in the 1st team squad, Minamino is maybe the only example? Who else hasn’t been getting regular playing time when they’re available?

There’s Origi, but pretty much everyone seems agreed that they don’t want him playing anyway. Neco, similarly nobody ever seems too satisfied when he does play.

As for the front 3, we’ve made a brilliant addition there who seems more than capably of rotating with the front 3 without no drop off in quality. But now he’s injured so we’re back to being over reliant on the old 3.

[Pepe79]

Originally Posted by Kenneth

I'm thinking specifically about the front three. We did rotate with Jota and it went well, but we scored 7 with Taki starting in attack and he's not played since. Shaw is class for Switzerland in Salah's position but doesn't get time, even Origi as a target in the centre might have some merit. Or a striker that lots of people have been calling for for several windows. We've been unlucky with injuries in defense and midfield, but our recent issues have been with first choicers near the goal.

Yes I agree, the Taki one is bit strange, at least since his Palace performance. But Shaq simply hasn’t been available very often this season again. Origi has been terrible when he has played.

[fabinho]

Originally Posted by Fredo

That's ridiculous. If we were 10 points behind City at this stage I would agree, but we're still top and still require these teams to play and win these games in hand, then we've got to play them etc.

I think its absolutely insane to think we'll win the league this year. We won nothing until we brought in a decent keeper and VVD, now people are expecting us to win the league against City with makeshift centerbacks of either kids or midfielders.

This hurts, but I think some people should really accept the reality of the situation this year. CL will be even worse.

[Kenneth]

Del, wrong thread

[Fivex]

Originally Posted by fabinho

I think its absolutely insane to think we'll win the league this year. We won nothing until we brought in a decent keeper and VVD, now people are expecting us to win the league against City with makeshift centerbacks of either kids or midfielders.

This hurts, but I think some people should really accept the reality of the situation this year. CL will be even worse.

Well we've still got a better chance now that we don't have a keeper intent on throwing the ball into his own net

[Norbs]

Originally Posted by Exiled_red

For me the issue is not whether I or anyone else think that it should or shouldn't be a penalty the issue is one of consistency. If the handball last night wasn't a penalty then the Gomez one posted above shouldn't be one either (along with a number of others), but given the precedent set by the Gomez one (and others) the players and us as fans have a right to feel aggrieved. The same with the Mane one, given the Pogba one a week or so ago if that is the standard for a penalty then the one on Mane should have been given.

VAR is doing nothing to help, all it does is make it more amplify the inconsistencies.

The more I watch football the less I understand the rules, I don't know what a penalty is, a handball is or an offside is anymore

I absolutely think the handball was a penalty because it was his only remaining chance of blocking the shot, it was goal bound, if your forearm by your knee is a natural position then you need to see a doctor and 4) because his arm is outside of his body line

[Kenneth]

I agree, that was a pen. I mean, we've conceded such pens before the rule change that makes it a clear one (thinking milner in the CL a couple of seasons ago)

[Buzzo]

I sometimes think we’ve forgotten why penalties should be given. A goal bound shot deflected by an arm is 100% a penalty.

Some of the confusion now is with the variances. A cross that hits of an arm but is not going towards the actual goal, is not a pen. Handball should only really count if it has a clear impact on the ball going towards the goal.

[Deano]

Some perspective from the G


A little perspective first. This was only Liverpool’s second league defeat of the season. They remain top on goal difference. Four of their next six fixtures are at home. And even in this wasteful effort there was still more than enough pressure, more than enough possession, more than enough in the way of openings, for Liverpool to have turned this around on another night.

[Deano]

But

As for Klopp, he can rage – not without justification – about kick-off times and rest periods. But it wasn’t the broadcasters who made the decision to play Diogo Jota in a meaningless Champions League dead rubber who then got a knee injury. The good news for Liverpool is that the title remains up for grabs. The bad news is that if they want to win, they’ll have to suffer like never before.

[Pepe79]

Who is the G?

[Deano]

Originally Posted by Pepe79

Who is the G?

Guardian

[Buzzo]

Originally Posted by Pepe79

Who is the G?

?

[Fredo]

Originally Posted by fabinho

I think its absolutely insane to think we'll win the league this year. We won nothing until we brought in a decent keeper and VVD, now people are expecting us to win the league against City with makeshift centerbacks of either kids or midfielders.



This hurts, but I think some people should really accept the reality of the situation this year. CL will be even worse.

It’s not insane at all to think that the current champions can still win the league. It’s not the defence which is the issue at the moment so that gives me belief that we’re gonna turn this around.

[Buzzo]

Originally Posted by Fredo

It’s not insane at all to think that the current champions can still win the league. It’s not the defence which is the issue at the moment so that gives me belief that we’re gonna turn this around.

Assuming both Manchester teams win all of their games in hand the absolute worst we will be is three points of the top, level on games played.

It’s not an unworkable position. And no team is looking like putting together a ten plus game winning streak. Every team will have a bad spell, this is ours. Do we have the quality to get out of it? Of course we do.

[Pepe79]

Just over 2 weeks ago, the media and many rival fans were handing us the title.

Now we’re being written off, while still sitting top of the league.
We do need to turn this around quickly though.

[ronanm]

It still hurts