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Old 08-12-20, 10:34 AM   #841
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For me it was debatable, and possibly a penalty, but the fact it took so long and that 20 looks at it doesn't really decisively tell you one way or another should surely mean that the original decision doesn't get overturned. It was in no way clear and obvious.
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Old 09-12-20, 09:07 PM   #842
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Does anyone still like this pile of shite?
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Old 09-12-20, 09:10 PM   #843
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Load of bollocks

Mancs seem to get on well with it though. Doing wonders for their pens.
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Old 09-12-20, 09:15 PM   #844
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Somehow it seems to be worse in Europe than the PL
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Old 10-12-20, 09:27 AM   #845
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They’ve even made a mess of hand ball.

The origin of handball is what defines the game. You cannot use your hand to catch and manipulate the ball.

The things they are giving hand ball for now are mental.

I literally don’t see how it’s difficult. Micing up the refs and getting a reason is totally crucial.

So for the one last night he could have said, it’s hard to say the ball was near both players hands however there was no intention, so the goal stands.

They just seem to have lost the original reason for most of the rules in football. Offside - ruined (no level is on, benefit to the attacker), penalties - ruined (keeper has to stay on line), hand ball ruined (forensic analysis of decision rather than common sense approach).
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Old 10-12-20, 09:45 AM   #846
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I hate it. The pauses are bad enough, but they're killing the game. So many good goals are chalked off every week. Then they find a million reasons to give penalties in ridiculous situations. It's like they won't be happy until every goal is a penalty. Teams will set up tactics to win penalties more and more as this will become the greatest percentage of goals. Build up play, individual brilliance, passing, long shots, clever finishes could all become ancient history if they don't do something fast.

It's actually ridiculous. I thought that there were too many penalties previously, it's getting even more ridiculous. Bruno Fernandes takes about 2 per game. He could finish his career with record breaking goalscoring stats with less than 5% of them coming from open play. Will quickly make the game unwatchable.
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Old 10-12-20, 09:47 AM   #847
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With the Minamino 'goal' last night did the ball even hit any part of Mane's arm? I was watching it on my phone so the screen size was tiny, so it wasn't easy to tell, but it looked to me like it didn't hit Mane's arm but did hit the defender's.

But explanations are essential because a couple of the incidents last night no one had a clue what was even being looked at offsides, fouls or handballs. The system is a farce.

I didn't really care about the result last night but despite that the VAR system really pissed me off.
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Old 10-12-20, 10:09 AM   #848
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Football for me at present is gone, the joy has been taken out of it with this absolute horror show of implementing var. The tech itself I'm sure works as to how it's supposed to it's the human intervention that's got this so wrong. No consistency pretty much game to game and you some some incidents being effectively re-reffed to the nth degree whilst others are just let slide.

I think if football continues down this path it'll self destruct as more and more fans will switch off from it as it's losing the passion and instant highs & lows football gives.
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Old 10-12-20, 10:31 AM   #849
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I hate VAR, I want it changed but last night was not an issue me. I think it was just unfortunate that we had a spate of incidents that were unusual and hard to decipher. Thought VAR did well in the end to give the correct decisions.

Also thought the ref was very interesting too. He wasn't your typical CL ref that would blow for every minor foul. If he felt a player has gone down too easily and could stay on his feet he would let play go on. Yes, we should had have a few fouls go our way but he did the same for them too and imo, that's the type of refereeing we should have more of to stop the simulation.
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Old 10-12-20, 10:51 AM   #850
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For me, the problem is that its being over-used. If it was saved for only overturning clear and obvious mistakes, as we told when it was originally implemented, then that would be fine. But its being used to pickup on every last little infringment, many of which you couldn't possibly expect a referee to have seen.
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Old 10-12-20, 11:31 AM   #851
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Over used, used badly, inconsistently and with no clear rationale or accountability. It’s fucking wank and is killing the game. All the adrenaline and joy gone. Zapater makes some interesting points about change of tactic but yeah I might be gone by then.
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Old 10-12-20, 12:33 PM   #852
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For me, the problem is that its being over-used. If it was saved for only overturning clear and obvious mistakes, as we told when it was originally implemented, then that would be fine. But its being used to pickup on every last little infringment, many of which you couldn't possibly expect a referee to have seen.
Which is fair enough, but it seems to get plenty of clear and obvious ones wrong, eg the utd penalty the other day. If it can't even do those consistently, then bin it
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Old 10-12-20, 01:32 PM   #853
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VAR has been an absolute disaster. The only thing it has highlighted which we already knew, is just how poor the standard of officiating in the premier league is. Ref's dropping a massive bollock in nearly every game and too arrogant to correct themselves.

Think this is probably as close to the truth as one can get.

A VAR system in itself is a very good thing, as has been shown in many other sports that use a VAR set up.

In rugby it is generally a quick, clean and very effective system. Calls are made quickly with not a lot of disruption to the game and generally (from what I can tell) the calls seem to be correct.

So why can a similar effective system not be implemented in football, specifically the EPL? Seems to me it boils down to the people using the VAR set up rather than the system itself.

In theory a VAR system should make it almost impossible for a truly bad call to be made because you have the ability to review and then over rule that bad call after it has been made. The game should be more error free and less games should be getting impacted by goals and incidents being called incorrectly.

The problem is, imo, that there is and will be no stomach for an overhaul in the human side of VAR unless there are financial ramifications like big drop offs in revenus due to people turning away from the sport. But even something like that would be glacial in terms of how slow it would happen if at all as there will always be people lining up to buy the product and to sponsor the product and a product is very much what it is now.
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Old 10-12-20, 01:44 PM   #854
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Here's the Minamino 'goal'

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Old 10-12-20, 02:13 PM   #855
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I've no idea how that wasnt given.

Shame for Minamino also, as getting a CL winner would have been good for him.
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Old 10-12-20, 02:34 PM   #856
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Not seeing a great angle but it looks like Sadio's head, Sadio's arm, their defender's arm
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Old 10-12-20, 03:47 PM   #857
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difficult without a good video app to pause the right frame but a quick pause/play/pause click around 1.45 shows it goes nowhere near Mane's hand.

They've utterly balls'd it up.
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Old 10-12-20, 05:35 PM   #858
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Old 10-12-20, 05:41 PM   #859
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I hate VAR, I want it changed but last night was not an issue me. I think it was just unfortunate that we had a spate of incidents that were unusual and hard to decipher. Thought VAR did well in the end to give the correct decisions.

Also thought the ref was very interesting too. He wasn't your typical CL ref that would blow for every minor foul. If he felt a player has gone down too easily and could stay on his feet he would let play go on. Yes, we should had have a few fouls go our way but he did the same for them too and imo, that's the type of refereeing we should have more of to stop the simulation.
It may be that it got the decisions right (I still can't see the Mane handball). It might have been unusual that there were so many complicated VAR calls, but I think we are seeing at least one of these complicated or difficult to explain decisions in every 2 or 3 games we play, and to be honest I don't watch enough non-LFC games to say if this is the case for everyone but I assume it must be. I see absolutely no reason for the officials not to explain the decisions. eg for the penalty something like: "we have reviewed the offside decision and found that the forward was in an onside position, he was subsequently fouled by the GK so a penalty was awarded"
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Old 10-12-20, 05:45 PM   #860
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For me, the problem is that its being over-used. If it was saved for only overturning clear and obvious mistakes, as we told when it was originally implemented, then that would be fine. But its being used to pickup on every last little infringment, many of which you couldn't possibly expect a referee to have seen.
Clear and obvious has long gone we are looking at tiny infringements essentially any contact in the box (if you go down) is a penalty which is not just a VAR issue it is a clear change of the rules, the same is true for level in offside calls and so on, it is changing the game and not for the better.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:44 AM   #861
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Although we benefited from a minuscule off-side tonight, over all. It’s still shit. Seems to be involved more in decent games.

I agree goal line tech is great. The rest seems to vary on a game by game basis.

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Old 29-01-21, 10:45 AM   #862
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VAR is shite isn't it. There's too much of it down to interpritation still and the way it's used where you sometimes see the lines coming out other times not it just seems to be at the discretion of the VAR official as to how he'll use it.

Get rid!
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Old 29-01-21, 11:08 AM   #863
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VAR is shite isn't it. There's too much of it down to interpritation still and the way it's used where you sometimes see the lines coming out other times not it just seems to be at the discretion of the VAR official as to how he'll use it.

Get rid!
For Salahís goal to be ruled out for an accidental hand ball from Bobby whilst he was being founded on the half way line is just nuts.

They have to find a way where it is at best used for an absolute howler.

That said, the game may have gone differently had Sons goal not been picked up. Overall though. Yep. Itís shit.
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Old 29-01-21, 11:42 AM   #864
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VAR is shite isn't it. There's too much of it down to interpritation still and the way it's used where you sometimes see the lines coming out other times not it just seems to be at the discretion of the VAR official as to how he'll use it.

Get rid!
So you want to get back at what it was before? That Spurs goal would have stood 100% it it was the case.

Again, I think in time, it will improve. Would it ever be perfect? Probably not, but never again I'd want a decision as last night's be down to a ref to be in a perfect situation and making an instant split gut feeling decision which could alter the course of a football game.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:03 PM   #865
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So you want to get back at what it was before? That Spurs goal would have stood 100% it it was the case.

Again, I think in time, it will improve. Would it ever be perfect? Probably not, but never again I'd want a decision as last night's be down to a ref to be in a perfect situation and making an instant split gut feeling decision which could alter the course of a football game.
If it means getting rid of var surely no one would had a complaint about sons goal being allowed? It was so marginal.

I sat there and didn't shout, fist pump, celebrate any of our 3 goals because I'm so tuned to wait for var to have its seedy look at proceedings. It's fucking taken away that immediate buzz of adrenalin and sheer ecstasy you used to get when your team scores a goal. Football is now so tame from lack of tackling on the pitch to lack of feeling off the pitch. No way would I get a kid of mine involved and hooked on this charade. We're too old and long in the tooth but the younger generation should fuck football off pronto.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:06 PM   #866
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I was also ‘please VAR’ for the Son goal.

But it’s not in the spirit of the game I enjoy. Both goals should stand, level should be ‘on’. Poxy accidental handballs shouldn’t be hand ball.

You are the master of ‘wait and see’ Fredo
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Old 29-01-21, 12:23 PM   #867
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I think the problem is that the rules of the game and use of VAR don't map up. The Salah disallowed goal as I said in the match thread I could understand the decision if Firmino wasn't being fouled. If you stick to the letter of the law yes it was handball, but it was a foul on Firmino, but you can't disallow a goal for us to bring it back and give us a freekick. IMO for that situation there needs to be some sort of offsetting where you can say there was handball but he was fouled causing it to happen nothing for either offence allow game to play on.

More than ever it seems like Shankly got it spot on with his quote "The trouble with referees is that they know the rules but they don't know the game" and that incident IMO was an example of it. The worrying thing is with VAR it seems that some refs don't even seem to know the rules
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Old 29-01-21, 12:24 PM   #868
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VAR and the Stockley Park knobheads are all shite.
Essentially we're going from refs making tight decisions in actual play and getting some of those wrong... but still in the spirit of the game in front of them... to ... technology ludites watching a massive screen, drawing inaccurate lines to prove their point rather than being objective... and then also backtracking a full phase of play to see a handball from one team due to the hand of the other team... but ignoring it because they'd look like dickheads to give us a freekick when we actually scored from the resulting passage of play.

VAR may be technically correct on some occasions - but the human line drawing, inaccurate point of ball contact, elbow/sleeve/armpit/fingernail/hip, etc makes it prone to errors too... and then there's the interpretation of the rules by the knobheads in Stockley Park into the earpiece of the ref who equally is clueless about the latest version 23.3 Thursday offside rule, which came in halfway through the season...

Then we all stand around for a few minutes waiting for the inevitable and VAR disallowing or allowing a goal/decision, by which time the fans have all started tweeting about how shit VAR is...

Son's goal last night I could see it being given... it was pretty damned close to being a good goal, so I would accept a ref's call. What I don't accept it pulling a goal back for a handball that was initiated by the Spurs handball... and giving Spurs a freekick.

Until it can be as black and white as the goal line technology, then it'll always be flawed and prone to human error and misinterpretation. So what's the point of having it??

It's fucking ludicrous.

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Old 29-01-21, 12:25 PM   #869
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I was also ‘please VAR’ for the Son goal.

But it’s not in the spirit of the game I enjoy. Both goals should stand, level should be ‘on’. Poxy accidental handballs shouldn’t be hand ball.

You are the master of ‘wait and see’ Fredo


Bobby's disallowed goal was a ridiculously bad decision but once it's down to interpretation, the referee will likely go towards applying the letter of the law, which removes that contextual element.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:31 PM   #870
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So you want to get back at what it was before? That Spurs goal would have stood 100% it it was the case.

Again, I think in time, it will improve. Would it ever be perfect? Probably not, but never again I'd want a decision as last night's be down to a ref to be in a perfect situation and making an instant split gut feeling decision which could alter the course of a football game.
I do yes, if the Spurs goal had stood so be it, it was marginal it would also have meant the Salah goal would have stood and the Mane goal vs Everton etc....

The implementation of var at present is woeful and doesn't work, that's not to say the tech couldn't work but the way it's being used at present isn't fit for purpose.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:49 PM   #871
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Looking at the handball rule bobby's goal should stand i was sent this earlier

If an attacking player accidentally touches the ball with their hand or arm and then scores a goal,orthe ball goes to another attacking player and they immediately score this a handball offence.
But it is not a handball offence if after an accidental handball the ball travels some distance via a pass or a dribble,or there are several passes before the goal or goalscoring opportunity.

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Old 29-01-21, 12:53 PM   #872
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The thing that double fucks me off is that he wouldn’t have handled it had the Spuds players not had him in a rear naked choke. So fucking stupid it’s untrue.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:55 PM   #873
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Looking at the handball rule bobby's goal should stand i was sent this earlier

If an attacking player accidentally touches the ball with their hand or arm and then scores a goal,orthe ball goes to another attacking player and they immediately score this a handball offence.
But it is not a handball offence if after an accidental handball the ball travels some distance via a pass or a dribble,or there are several passes before the goal or goalscoring opportunity.

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The argument against that was that "it wasn't accidental, as he moved his arm towards the ball, so was deliberate" but that still ignores the reason that happened in the first place, i.e, he was getting molested by Dier.
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Old 29-01-21, 12:56 PM   #874
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The thing that double fucks me off is that he wouldnít have handled it had the Spuds players not had him in a rear naked choke. So fucking stupid itís untrue.
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Old 29-01-21, 01:41 PM   #875
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The argument against that was that "it wasn't accidental, as he moved his arm towards the ball, so was deliberate" but that still ignores the reason that happened in the first place, i.e, he was getting molested by Dier.
I still think it was deliberate handball. Dyer fouling doesn't change that, he didn't push his arm into it, so the rightful outcome would have been a free kick for us. Hard to be upset that VAR spotted it when it caught an actual foul, but that's where the inconsistency is. It doesn't check that freekicks or corners were correctly awarded when they result in a goal, and they're far more significant to a game than a handball on the halfway line. And corners are a 'matter of fact' issue that VAR is supposedly ideal for.
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Old 29-01-21, 02:50 PM   #876
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one of the stand outs for me was we didnt see all of the angles being played out on teh VAR screen.

There was one replay from side on that showed the handball - the optimum angle was what we saw on TV which was full frontal view of bobby with dyer behind him. The VAR team can use whatever bias they may have to influence a decision - not saying they are or anything but we all know that 5 or 6 different view viewpoints could lead to different opinions
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Old 29-01-21, 03:43 PM   #877
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one of the stand outs for me was we didnt see all of the angles being played out on teh VAR screen.

There was one replay from side on that showed the handball - the optimum angle was what we saw on TV which was full frontal view of bobby with dyer behind him. The VAR team can use whatever bias they may have to influence a decision - not saying they are or anything but we all know that 5 or 6 different view viewpoints could lead to different opinions
One thing that is not clear to me is which angles the VAR cameras have? Do they have access to all the broadcast cameras as well as their own cameras? Or do they see incidents from fewer angles than we do? Because there have been some interesting angles that have been used (or not used) for some calls.
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Old 29-01-21, 03:52 PM   #878
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One thing that is not clear to me is which angles the VAR cameras have? Do they have access to all the broadcast cameras as well as their own cameras? Or do they see incidents from fewer angles than we do? Because there have been some interesting angles that have been used (or not used) for some calls.
totally - at the very least they should have all of the angles available from broadcasters and every angle should be scrutinised.

When the ref goes to the screen they have a decision made in a few seconds whereby we've had the benefit of minutes worth of replays by that stage (Var review to stockley park to red).
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Old 14-02-21, 01:06 PM   #879
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https://www.givemesport.com/1649989-...ite-var-ruling

I posted this in the match thread, but think it also deserves discussion here. The above link suggests that the line from which Firmino's foot is marked may actually be the shadow of his foot rather than the foot itself. I'm not sure if this is accurate, but to my mind the line on the Leicester player's arm doesn't look right based on the sleeve rule and what we have seen previously this season.

There have been a number of questions raised about this decision:
1) The position of the line of the Leicester player's arm
2) The position of the line of Firmino's foot (discussed above)
3) Klopp also suggested issues of when the ball is played.

All three of these are presumably subjective, the VAR official has to choose the appropriate frame and the positions of the player's body which define the boundaries to make the decision. These decisions shouldn't be made by one person in isolation, as there is no accountability, it seems to be far too easy to make mistakes or (and I'm not saying that this is or has happened) manipulate decisions. Also there is no explanation as to what is and what isn't reviewed, another example being the 2nd Leicester goal, was the goal reviewed for the 2 handed push on Mane? If not why not? If it was why was this not deemed a foul? Leicester players were making 'clever' decisions to 'draw fouls' where there was minimal contact, Mane gets a two handed push in the back which is as clear as day and allows Leicester to regain possession and score, to me this seems a classic example of a 'clear and obvious error' by the official which should have been reviewed.

These incidents show the short comings and lack of accountability for these decisions and it really needs addressing, last week we had the FA overturning red cards after the match was over based on video evidence. This in itself shows the fallibility of VAR, if there is enough evidence for the FA to overturn the decision days later why did VAR not overturn it at the time. The system is a joke and is ruining the game.

Hardly any of the players, managers, pundits or fans know when the rules are supposed to be applied and if they are being applied correctly, I feel that there needs to be either some system where there is a club representative (from each side) watching the decision being made in the room who can flag up anything dubious, and the ability of the manager to challenge or ask the officials to look at a decision that has been missed. The decisions need to be explained fully so that there is clarity in the process, e.g. with the Pickford foul on VVD they could explain that the offside negated a penalty, but that they were looking at a possible red card (it's still unclear whether that was or wasn't done as there are differing reports on what VAR actually looked at) It needs to be recorded as a matter of fact what was looked at (offside, penalty, red card) and the reasoning for one or more of them being given or not.
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Old 14-02-21, 01:20 PM   #880
ChesterDave
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Seems to have infected cricket this week too. Some absolutely baffling decisions
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