View Full Version : Is it time to limit foreigners in the Prem?
Howard_lfc
24-07-06, 09:44 PM
Suppose - just suppose - we get Alves and Kuyt....
Add them to Aurelio, Gonzalez, Paletta, and Bellamy and you have six new players coming in - and only one of them is british. Only Gerrard, Carra, Fowler, Finnan and Warnock are brits also.
THe Chavs have bought, Shevchenko, Kallou, Bollock (and possibly A Cole to come).
Wenger has only bought a handful of brits in his time here :Wright, Upson, Jeffers....
And Utd have only Richardson, Fletcher and O'Shea come through since their influx of youth in the 90's - and none of them are definite first Xi material..
Those names etc are just off the top of my head but you can see that there's a distinct lack of homegrown talent within the four clubs mentioned.
I simply don't think there can be an arguement against limiting the number of foreign players in our league. In order for our national team to flourish (now that SGE has gone (thank feck for that !!!!)) it's imperative that we encourage our own talent to come through - and not go for the quick fix solution of buying johnny foreigner.
I would propose that every club in the prem MUST have a certain number of home grown (born here!!! not from the ivory coast and stuck in the youth and resses for a few years and calling 'them' home grown - Wenger) players in the match day squad in say 6-7 years time.
I'd also ban clubs buying players from abroad who are over 30 - and so looking to 'cash in' on OUR money just before they hang up their boots!
I'm sure that there are other proposals/ideas but I don't wanna make the post too long.......
I know there'll be opposition to this - I'd expect no less - but something has to be done for the good of English Football.
H
univofchicago
24-07-06, 09:57 PM
Suppose - just suppose - we get Alves and Kuyt....
Add them to Aurelio, Gonzalez, Paletta, and Bellamy and you have six new players coming in - and only one of them is british. Only Gerrard, Carra, Fowler, Finnan and Warnock are brits also.
THe Chavs have bought, Shevchenko, Kallou, Bollock (and possibly A Cole to come).
Wenger has only bought a handful of brits in his time here :Wright, Upson, Jeffers....
And Utd have only Richardson, Fletcher and O'Shea come through since their influx of youth in the 90's - and none of them are definite first Xi material..
Those names etc are just off the top of my head but you can see that there's a distinct lack of homegrown talent within the four clubs mentioned.
I simply don't think there can be an arguement against limiting the number of foreign players in our league. In order for our national team to flourish (now that SGE has gone (thank feck for that !!!!)) it's imperative that we encourage our own talent to come through - and not go for the quick fix solution of buying johnny foreigner.
I would propose that every club in the prem MUST have a certain number of home grown (born here!!! not from the ivory coast and stuck in the youth and resses for a few years and calling 'them' home grown - Wenger) players in the match day squad in say 6-7 years time.
I'd also ban clubs buying players from abroad who are over 30 - and so looking to 'cash in' on OUR money just before they hang up their boots!
I'm sure that there are other proposals/ideas but I don't wanna make the post too long.......
I know there'll be opposition to this - I'd expect no less - but something has to be done for the good of English Football.
H
I think there should be some sort of a limit. And I would think that most people are for it as well. The problem is that there are a lot of legal obstacles that prevent the football authorities from taking drastic actions. If anything, its going to be a gradual process.
Fortunately, we have a Spanish manager who acknowledges the importance of having a British core. I expect him to stick to that principle.
You're point about sticking player from the Ivory Coast in the reserves for a few years and then claiming them as home grown is a good one and one relatively easy to fix:
Players don't qualify as home grown unless they are eligible to play for England's national team or they are born in England. The reason this is necessary is it will stop players claiming to be "home grown" becuase they've lived here for a few years as they won't be allowed to play for their national team. As the point is to improve the national team I think this would work.
Shanks65
24-07-06, 10:33 PM
IMO England currently have the most talented bunch of players they've ever had. (I know they failed recently, but that's more down to management, or lack of!)
You may well have a point on the sheer amount of foreigners in the British game, but I really can't see how it's negatively affected the national team.
Just my opinion though
I don't really see what advantage an artificial limit is to be honest. The reason for the absence of young english players coming through is that we have had a system that has schooled players out of natural skill while not giving them the tactical knowledge to make up for this.
It is like Arsene Wenger says while kids at the age of 13 in this country continue to have less skills than those abroad then he will keep importing youth. The reason why the top teams have few english players is that there are very few who are goos enough. An imposed limit would simply mean that a certain number of less good players would have to play.
Recently we have seen that other clubs academies have finally started providing youngsters of a quality to make them better bets than importing cheap foreign players. The difference between ourselves and say Middlesborough is mainly that to play for Liverpool you need to be better than you do to play for them.
I genuinely believe that in time the shear economics of the situation will see more english players play in the PL. These players will benefit most from playing football at the highest level possible. The way to ensure this is to have the best quality players, managers and coaches in the league for them to compete with and play under.
The other argument is that you plans would actually be against european laws. I know teams like Arsenal play the rules to get EU passports for players from outside the EU, but ultimately the rules already prohibit the import of young players from outside europe. We will always need to obey by the laws of freedom of employment. So any limit would only affect those players from outside the EU and judging from the whinging about how long it took us to bring in Gonzales I don't think people believe that the regulations in that area are particularly lax.
A further pragmatic point is that the club sides do not owe any national association anything much in this day and age and will thus never change the rules purely for the benefit of the England team
How do we limit it now?
Once the floodgates opened, that was it. You cant tell a club to only sell foreign players to get their numbers down.
I'm totally in favour of limits and feel that those proposed are way too low. I feel that every domestic team in every country should be majority home-grown players. Having too many foreign players takes away a team's local identity. The whole thing caused me to look at the World Cup through very different eyes - when I was a kid it would be a really fascinating competition, all these players with exotic names, the vast majority of them unknown over here and playing football we'd never seen before. Now every team is just an assemblage of players we're over-familiar with from our own and other European leagues, with the added depressing element of the tournament just being a shop window for the likes of Chelsea to buy the brightest talents.
If you look through the BBC transfer-gossip column each day, out of about 30 players rumoured to be on the verge of a transfer to a British club, about 3 or 4 will be British. As players in the national team are people FROM that country representing their own country, in an ideal world every player in a domestic team would be FROM the town or city they're playing for.
I think that legally it would be impossible - certainly in the case of the european players, due to european employment laws.
If we could ban foreign players, I'd start with the welsh :-)
I think that legally it would be impossible - certainly in the case of the european players, due to european employment laws.
If we could ban foreign players, I'd start with the welsh :-)
I think they were talking about getting football exempt from these laws. I don't see it happening though, epecially with those moaning Welsh sheepshaggers.
I'm totally in favour of limits and feel that those proposed are way too low. I feel that every domestic team in every country should be majority home-grown players. Having too many foreign players takes away a team's local identity. The whole thing caused me to look at the World Cup through very different eyes - when I was a kid it would be a really fascinating competition, all these players with exotic names, the vast majority of them unknown over here and playing football we'd never seen before. Now every team is just an assemblage of players we're over-familiar with from our own and other European leagues, with the added depressing element of the tournament just being a shop window for the likes of Chelsea to buy the brightest talents.
If you look through the BBC transfer-gossip column each day, out of about 30 players rumoured to be on the verge of a transfer to a British club, about 3 or 4 will be British. As players in the national team are people FROM that country representing their own country, in an ideal world every player in a domestic team would be FROM the town or city they're playing for.
I don't see the logic that because we have representative football at one level we must have it at all levels. Ideally I would like to have a team of passionate Liverpool supporters but I really don't see why anyone thinks we would have been better off not having say Hyypia or Hamman in the side in the last few years.
On top of that how would you qualify for coming from a certain town. Would this mean players could never move home as they then could not play football.
I just don't see this rather odd need for homogenised teams of English players. I think there is a reasonable case for introducing Europe wide rules attempting to limit club debts and possibly the size of senior players in squads similar to the rules in place in France (and those proposed in Scotland a few years ago, but I'm not sure if they were implemented).
I think they were talking about getting football exempt from these laws. I don't see it happening though, epecially with those moaning Welsh sheepshaggers.
:D
I don't see the logic that because we have representative football at one level we must have it at all levels. Ideally I would like to have a team of passionate Liverpool supporters but I really don't see why anyone thinks we would have been better off not having say Hyypia or Hamman in the side in the last few years.
On top of that how would you qualify for coming from a certain town. Would this mean players could never move home as they then could not play football.
I just don't see this rather odd need for homogenised teams of English players. I think there is a reasonable case for introducing Europe wide rules attempting to limit club debts and possibly the size of senior players in squads similar to the rules in place in France (and those proposed in Scotland a few years ago, but I'm not sure if they were implemented).
I used that 'ideal world' as an extreme example. It really is a difficult issue, especially with a club like ours that has been so well-represented by non-English players throughout the ages, was in fact 100% Scottish when it started and whose arguably all-time greatest player was Scottish. I find it hard not to take ANY player that signs for us to my heart, regardless of nationality, as the vast majority of them realise that Liverpool is no ordinary club for them to be a mercenary club-hopper with for a season or two (like Portsmouth), they know the history and feel proud to become part of it. It just becomes a bit frustrating when the idea of signing a player from the British isles seems to fall further down the list of priorities each transfer window. Players like Hamann, Hyypia and Alonso mean a lot to me, but locals like Gerrard and Carragher mean a lot more. My mum said that when The Beatles became famous she felt really proud, like members of her own family had gone far. I get the same feeling whenever a Liverpool lad comes through the ranks and am sad to see it happening so rarely.
I can see you point but I think that the way to get players of the quality of Carra and Gerrard is to make them compete with the best players possible to get in the first team. I actually think that wether they are local or not in the long run Rafa plans to bring through more players from the academy/youth setup. I can see why people want there to be local/british players coming through I just don't think that limiting foreigners is the way to go.
Good points. No one can argue that English football didn't fall behind European football during the post-Heysel ban. Thus it could be said that the number of foreign players in the English league is allowing UK players and coaches to learn more from other countries' techniques. I hope they're putting the lessons to good use in the academies.
I personally feel it is a ridiculous idea. Why should you have to play a player just because of their nationality?
If they are not good enough then it is as simple as that. The Premier League should be greatfull for the foreign influx because it has improved the quality of the league and IMO the national side.
Red_Polo
25-07-06, 04:27 PM
Exactly, nationality shouldn't come into it.
Howard_lfc
25-07-06, 06:01 PM
I personally feel it is a ridiculous idea. Why should you have to play a player just because of their nationality?
You really can't grasp this can you? :o The bigger picture? :o :wall: :wall:
I take it then you are happy that there are fewer and fewer british players coming through these days? I also take it you're happy that the knock-on effect of this is that the national team will struggle as a consequence? And I also believe that you're happy that players like Salif Diao are brought in to our clubs whilst decent british players like John Welsh are not given a chance to stake a claim in the team? :wall:
Maybe you're not british then and have no interest whatsoever in what is good for the game in this country*. On the other hand - I do care about our national game and I want it to be the best it can possibly be. England has produced some wonderful players in our past - and I want to ensure that we continue to produce fine players in the future. However, it is my genuine belief that average foreign players are stunting the growth of our own talent.
H
* Before you start - don't make this a race issue - coz it isnt.
I'd hate to be a young British player trying to make it at the moment. Unless you're truly exceptional you have extremely little chance of progessing with most of the clubs in the Premiership. And while there are hundreds of foreign players in our league at the moment, there are extremely few British players playing abroad. It's not a healthy situation.
isn't fifa trying to do that, isn't there a rule from fifa comming that states that you need to have x many players in you starting team that are home grown,
Howard_lfc
25-07-06, 07:40 PM
The Premier League should be greatfull for the foreign influx because it has improved the quality of the league and IMO the national side.
What a corker! :crackoff:
Due to the dramatic increase in the quality of the national side (no honest! stop laughing) - it has been reported that the FA are to send their heartfelt thanks to Jean Michel Ferri, Bruno Cheyrou, Salif Diao, Bernard Diomede, Sean Dundee, Eric Meijer, Bjorn Tore Kvarme, Oyvind Leonhardsen, Stig Inge Bjornebye and Torben Piechnic for the part they played in making this happen.
:D :D :D :D :D :
H
Red_Polo
25-07-06, 09:56 PM
I really don't see what the problem is with allowing foreign players in as clubs see fit. If it's about identity then it's not based around nationality for clubs anyway. How about all players must come from within a certain radius of Liverpool then? We're Liverpool not Britain after all.
This whole idea is so insular and backward, we ought to be moving forwards. How about more English lads try their luck abroad? Maybe it's precisely because Britain is still quite insular that so few actually do? This sort of stuff evokes memories of 'ooh that bloody foreigner has taken my job' etc - if they deserve it then who cares? There might well be plenty of crap foreign players around, but if there were better British ones don't you think it would be in clubs interests to sign them anyway? Don't need some xenophobic regulation to enforce it. If anything we should scrap the ridiculous non-EU rules for players that we all moaned about for so long when Gonzalez wasn't given a work permit.
Howard_lfc
25-07-06, 10:17 PM
I really don't see what the problem is with allowing foreign players in as clubs see fit. If it's about identity then it's not based around nationality for clubs anyway. How about all players must come from within a certain radius of Liverpool then? We're Liverpool not Britain after all.
This whole idea is so insular and backward, we ought to be moving forwards. How about more English lads try their luck abroad? Maybe it's precisely because Britain is still quite insular that so few actually do? This sort of stuff evokes memories of 'ooh that bloody foreigner has taken my job' etc - if they deserve it then who cares? There might well be plenty of crap foreign players around, but if there were better British ones don't you think it would be in clubs interests to sign them anyway? Don't need some xenophobic regulation to enforce it. If anything we should scrap the ridiculous non-EU rules for players that we all moaned about for so long when Gonzalez wasn't given a work permit.
Let's get this right - I said we should LIMIT foreigners - not ban them altogether.
And it's nothing to do with 'bloody foreigners' taking our jobs - it's about the good of the game in this country. Our young players are being suppressed by average foreign players taking their places; if you can't see/understand that then we should end this discussion now......
It's a nice idea you have about more english lads going abroad RP. However - who is going to employ them when they've got hardly any experience in the prem (and europe) because they can't get in the team due to the very reason I'm stating i.e. too many foreigners.
It's all about balance IMO - and at the moment there are too many foreigners in our game for my liking. Teams like West Ham regularly produce good young players because they give them a chance to develop - not stagnate in the reserves and then drop down into the lower leagues. More teams should follow their lead.
There will always be a place for foreign players in our league - and rightly so - but at the moment - the balance is all wrong.
H
Red_Polo
25-07-06, 11:08 PM
Let's get this right - I said we should LIMIT foreigners - not ban them altogether.
And it's nothing to do with 'bloody foreigners' taking our jobs - it's about the good of the game in this country. Our young players are being suppressed by average foreign players taking their places; if you can't see/understand that then we should end this discussion now......
It's a nice idea you have about more english lads going abroad RP. However - who is going to employ them when they've got hardly any experience in the prem (and europe) because they can't get in the team due to the very reason I'm stating i.e. too many foreigners.
It's all about balance IMO - and at the moment there are too many foreigners in our game for my liking. Teams like West Ham regularly produce good young players because they give them a chance to develop - not stagnate in the reserves and then drop down into the lower leagues. More teams should follow their lead.
There will always be a place for foreign players in our league - and rightly so - but at the moment - the balance is all wrong.
H
So what if it's more difficult for British kids to get a game in the Premiership? We need to look forwards, not back. We should stop thinking of these issues in terms of pesky foreigners stealing opportunities, and start looking at it without these nationalistic preconceptions.
The problem is not the number of foreign players, it is the youth policies of big clubs. Often they keep young British players on their books when they are not yet good enough to get first team games, and worse, will not become good enough for first team football since they are deprived of that very experience itself. If these players had been playing regularly in the championship then they would develop better. We've seen how good for a player it can be to be loaned out to a lower league club for regular football.
As you point out, West Ham give their young players a chance and it benefits all parties. But if other clubs don't have young players of the desired quality as West Ham have had, then they should not be forced to reduce their quality. Instead, their youth players who aren't good enough for them should be somewhere they actually can play. I believe a fair solution would be based around getting players regular first team football at a club of their level. That's a whole lot better than diminishing the quality of our top league by regulating the number of imports out of some nationalistic sentiment. Frankly that particular idea is like deciding you are going to warm your feet up a bit by shooting them with a revolver. It would only be to the detriment of British football in any case.
If talented kids can't get Premiership games then it's usually because they aren't good enough. Let them play in foreign leagues or lower divisions and develop their game on a platform that is suited to their ability and we will all reap the benefits. What's more we will do so without resigning our top league to mediocrity and unneccesarily impinging on the freedom of people to work based solely on their nationality.
What a corker! :crackoff:
Due to the dramatic increase in the quality of the national side (no honest! stop laughing) - it has been reported that the FA are to send their heartfelt thanks to Jean Michel Ferri, Bruno Cheyrou, Salif Diao, Bernard Diomede, Sean Dundee, Eric Meijer, Bjorn Tore Kvarme, Oyvind Leonhardsen, Stig Inge Bjornebye and Torben Piechnic for the part they played in making this happen.
:D :D :D :D :D :
H
Zola, Bergkamp, Cantona, Henry....what's your point?
I am Australia, yes. However I love English Football and don't be mistaken that just because I am not British I don't care about the good of the game there. However I don't think you are completely correct in your assessment of the overall picture.
Things IMO are not as bad as you make out. The top players will always get their chance and if you are not good enough then you won't. Just because Welsh is English I don't think he should have more of a right to play for Liverpool then a foreigner Rafa might spot who might be good enough.
Howard_lfc
26-07-06, 07:42 AM
Zola, Bergkamp, Cantona, Henry....what's your point?
I am Australia, yes. However I love English Football and don't be mistaken that just because I am not British I don't care about the good of the game there. However I don't think you are completely correct in your assessment of the overall picture.
Things IMO are not as bad as you make out. The top players will always get their chance and if you are not good enough then you won't. Just because Welsh is English I don't think he should have more of a right to play for Liverpool then a foreigner Rafa might spot who might be good enough.
The 4 you mentioned are quality players mate and i have no problem with them whatsoever. My problem is with the kind of players I mentioned in my post who take up places in the team when we should be encouraging our own players to make the grade.
As for the overall picture: England has a good crop of players right now - but looking further ahead I can foresee problems with a lack of talent available. Something must be done to get the balance right and I believe that in the next few years you will see this happen. I believe it already happens in Scotland whereby each time must name x amount of scottish players in their match day squad. The premier league will follow suit - just you wait and see.
The 4 you mentioned are quality players mate and i have no problem with them whatsoever. My problem is with the kind of players I mentioned in my post who take up places in the team when we should be encouraging our own players to make the grade.
As for the overall picture: England has a good crop of players right now - but looking further ahead I can foresee problems with a lack of talent available. Something must be done to get the balance right and I believe that in the next few years you will see this happen. I believe it already happens in Scotland whereby each time must name x amount of scottish players in their match day squad. The premier league will follow suit - just you wait and see.
I don't think so IMO. I've heard English fans for years talk about how poor the next generation of players will be yet players have always developed.
The English Premier League is a big league and a lot of foreign players are going to want to come and test their skills in England. Some will make, some won't. It should be up to the managers who they play, not their passports. Also I don't see why clubs should have to worry about grooming players for the national side. The clubs are seperate entities.
I don't think so IMO. I've heard English fans for years talk about how poor the next generation of players will be yet players have always developed.
The English Premier League is a big league and a lot of foreign players are going to want to come and test their skills in England. Some will make, some won't. It should be up to the managers who they play, not their passports. Also I don't see why clubs should have to worry about grooming players for the national side. The clubs are seperate entities.
I'd start by banning Aussies, then the Welsh, then Scots. I don't want any of them noncy english either. Scouse players for a scouse team!!! :wall: :wall:
I'd start by banning Aussies, then the Welsh, then Scots. I don't want any of them noncy english either. Scouse players for a scouse team!!! :wall: :wall:
The "Scouse" club had its glory days when it had an Aussie, Scots and the sort. :p
The 4 you mentioned are quality players mate and i have no problem with them whatsoever. My problem is with the kind of players I mentioned in my post who take up places in the team when we should be encouraging our own players to make the grade.
As for the overall picture: England has a good crop of players right now - but looking further ahead I can foresee problems with a lack of talent available. Something must be done to get the balance right and I believe that in the next few years you will see this happen. I believe it already happens in Scotland whereby each time must name x amount of scottish players in their match day squad. The premier league will follow suit - just you wait and see.
I think your view is very simplistic. It clearly benefits no one to import crap foreigners, but managers are not trying to do so. The problem in recent years has been the weakness of the reserve and youth setups in England meaning that performance at that standard has come to be regarded as meaningless. It has also hampered the development of players in that level of football. As a consequence teams have started to prefer the odds of bringing in players from abroad who have first team experience.
I also think that your argument is a bit out of date to be honest. Most of the teams challenging for Europe are keen to blood young players and can't afford to scout abroad at that level. Last season I would hazard a guess that more young british players got a chance than for a long time. As coaching and general standards at youth level improve so do the chances of players getting into the first team.
Further to this I believe that the Scottish system like the Frenc system is not based on nationality (for legal reasons) but limiting the number of senior (over 23 I think) professionals in the playing staff and match day squads of each team. I think there are good arguments for doing this in terms of competition and it may even help develop youth. However teams would still bring in the young players from abroad to fill these youth spots so I don't think that it would necissarily do what you want it to.
Howard_lfc
26-07-06, 12:01 PM
I think your view is very simplistic. It clearly benefits no one to import crap foreigners, but managers are not trying to do so. The problem in recent years has been the weakness of the reserve and youth setups in England meaning that performance at that standard has come to be regarded as meaningless. It has also hampered the development of players in that level of football. As a consequence teams have started to prefer the odds of bringing in players from abroad who have first team experience.
I also think that your argument is a bit out of date to be honest. Most of the teams challenging for Europe are keen to blood young players and can't afford to scout abroad at that level. Last season I would hazard a guess that more young british players got a chance than for a long time. As coaching and general standards at youth level improve so do the chances of players getting into the first team.
Further to this I believe that the Scottish system like the Frenc system is not based on nationality (for legal reasons) but limiting the number of senior (over 23 I think) professionals in the playing staff and match day squads of each team. I think there are good arguments for doing this in terms of competition and it may even help develop youth. However teams would still bring in the young players from abroad to fill these youth spots so I don't think that it would necissarily do what you want it to.
Just because it's not a convoluted arguement doesn't mean it isn't correct.
Take a look around the teams in the prem and then tell me that there aren't too many foreigners. IMO we need to do something about it whereas you obviously think the numbers are fine. I have no problem with quality - it's the quantity I'm concerned about.
I think you're right with the scottish thing - it is to do with age (23).
I'm not saying that it's simplicity is your arguments flaw. Simply that I don't believe that the situation is as simple as your argument suggests. Taking the starting point that it is in the interests of the English game to develop players of a high quality to play in the England team (I think it could be argued that it is an entertainment product which should be viewed in terms of how much enjoyment it provides - no one gets upset that there are so many Americans in the movies for example).
I know there are a lot of foreign players in the league but I thik that this is a result of a number of years when coaching in this country fell below that in Europe. This has led to an influx of players as we have the money to pay them. However I genuinely think that the last few years have seen the turning of the tide as the rate of English players coming into PL sides has increased due to the improvements made in coaching.
In the last few years the England side has not seen a lack of talent because every player who was English and played in the PL was of a very high standard and had to play against players of a very good standard. This meant that even if the numbers were low the cream rose to the top more obviously and was improved when it got there. Contrast this to the period when Carlton Palmer and Geoff Thomas seemed like valid England internationals.
I think that a limit on foreign players would simply mean the playing of less talented English players for the sake of it. Reducing the quality of the league. This may be necissary in leagues where top coaching cannot be bought in but in the PL we can afford and have gone out to bring in the best available coaches and as a result the balance of home grown players is improving. Every club is a business and youth players are cheaper than players bought in and in many cases will sell more shirts than a foreign player of comparable quality.
isn't fifa trying to do that, isn't there a rule from fifa comming that states that you need to have x many players in you starting team that are home grown,
Only skimmed this thread...
I'm sure there's plenty of xenophobia etc. etc. But at least someone has the sense to post something knowledgeable in a short, sweet sentence.
This is the link. Arsenal - big surprise there will be looking to challenge, as would D. Murray (if they bloody qualified that is!).
Uefa sets foreign player limits (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/4233353.stm)
I like this rule and while it wont come into effect in the EPL the big boys will be forced to adhere without damaging Bolton T/fer strategy!
The thing is the actual regulations make no mention of nationality. there are two classes of "homegrown" player mentioned:
1/ players who were trained in the home association of the club for 2 years between the ages of 17 and 21
2/ players trained in the club for two years in the same age range.
The limit will rise eventually to 8 category 1 players of which four must be category 2.
Thus no limit on foreign players. For example I believe Toure, Senderos, and Clechy all qualify for Arsenal.
Despite being against the limit I think the thread has generally steered clear of the xenophobia usually associated with this topic.
Howard_lfc
26-07-06, 01:59 PM
The thing is the actual regulations make no mention of nationality. there are two classes of "homegrown" player mentioned:
1/ players who were trained in the home association of the club for 2 years between the ages of 17 and 21
2/ players trained in the club for two years in the same age range.
The limit will rise eventually to 8 category 1 players of which four must be category 2.
Thus no limit on foreign players. For example I believe Toure, Senderos, and Clechy all qualify for Arsenal.
Despite being against the limit I think the thread has generally steered clear of the xenophobia usually associated with this topic.
The rules you mention are exactly the ones I referred to at the top of the thread - associated with Arsenal.
Hey dww - great posts by the way. However!!! Just because your points are valid and well articulated - it doesn't mean that I agree with them.:D :D
Red_Polo
27-07-06, 04:35 PM
Take a look around the teams in the prem and then tell me that there aren't too many foreigners.
What exactly is 'too many foreigners' supposed to mean? What's too many, and why is any number too many? You say you aren't evoking the old idea of foreigners taking British jobs, but you are because you're saying there are too many foreigners over here playing top flight football when it should be British folk.
I think the fact is you are looking at this from a highly nationalistic perspective, you keep talking about the good of the game in 'this country' etc. We're Liverpool, we aren't a national team, it's not up to us to do anything whatsoever for the good of the game in this country particularly. Any moral responsibility we have lies with the good of the game throughout the world. In fact any moral responsibility anyone has should be to the whole world, not limited by national borders. So why limit foreign players? What exactly is unfair about it? Why shouldn't foreign players have the same chances as British ones?
Howard_lfc
27-07-06, 10:03 PM
What exactly is 'too many foreigners' supposed to mean? What's too many, and why is any number too many? You say you aren't evoking the old idea of foreigners taking British jobs, but you are because you're saying there are too many foreigners over here playing top flight football when it should be British folk.
I think the fact is you are looking at this from a highly nationalistic perspective, you keep talking about the good of the game in 'this country' etc. We're Liverpool, we aren't a national team, it's not up to us to do anything whatsoever for the good of the game in this country particularly. Any moral responsibility we have lies with the good of the game throughout the world. In fact any moral responsibility anyone has should be to the whole world, not limited by national borders. So why limit foreign players? What exactly is unfair about it? Why shouldn't foreign players have the same chances as British ones?
Listen RP - Let me put this very simply : IMO there are too many foreign players in our league. Some of them are top drawer and are more than welcome; but there are loads of them throughout the league who I believe are no better than what we already have and are stifling the growth of our home grown players. THAT is my opinion ok. If you don't like it then tough - coz I'm certainly not going to change it. :grr:
My perspective is purely a footballing one - although you seem to think otherwise as this is the second time you've mentioned 'foreigners taking british jobs'. If you wish to discuss non-footballing issues regarding nationalities and borders mate then you've come to the wrong bloke because I have absolutely no interest in discussing topics such as these with you or anybody else.
I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. Now if you will excuse me...........
H
SouthAfricaRed
28-07-06, 06:41 AM
Once you start introducing Artificial constraints on the League, the Quality of the League Suffers. The EPL is one of the Best Leagues in the World, because the Best players play in it. If you start limiting the Top Players from playing in it, the quality of the League will suffer.
BTW the Performance of the English side has very little to do with the Quality of the side. There is enough Good Young English players around. They have improved their skills by playing against the Best. I think the problem is Higher up the chain. There are not enough Good English Managers Around. Do you propose a Limit on Foreign Managers too?
Howard_lfc
28-07-06, 07:13 AM
Once you start introducing Artificial constraints on the League, the Quality of the League Suffers. The EPL is one of the Best Leagues in the World, because the Best players play in it. If you start limiting the Top Players from playing in it, the quality of the League will suffer.
BTW the Performance of the English side has very little to do with the Quality of the side. There is enough Good Young English players around. They have improved their skills by playing against the Best. I think the problem is Higher up the chain. There are not enough Good English Managers Around. Do you propose a Limit on Foreign Managers too?
Read what I said SAR. I said I have no problem with the top foreign players coming over here to play. My point is that there are too many average foreigners restricting opportunities for our own players.
I do wish people would stop trying to put words into my mouth - I really do :wall:
The foreign managers is another debate totally - and one which I haven't really thought about yet; but on the face of it - there weren't too many decent english managers to consider when SGE decided to jack it in were there? Draw your own conclusions.....
H
SouthAfricaRed
28-07-06, 10:32 AM
Read what I said SAR. I said I have no problem with the top foreign players coming over here to play. My point is that there are too many average foreigners restricting opportunities for our own players.
I do wish people would stop trying to put words into my mouth - I really do :wall:
The foreign managers is another debate totally - and one which I haven't really thought about yet; but on the face of it - there weren't too many decent english managers to consider when SGE decided to jack it in were there? Draw your own conclusions.....
H
But who decides which players are good enough. The Gonzalez debacle would make me think twice before introducing more Red Tape.
I dont understand why you are saying that average foreign players are restricting oppertunities for English players. Surely if the English players were good enough, they would be signed instead of the average Foreign players? If they arent good enough to displace these average players, then surely they wont be good enough for the National team anyway.
The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.
The point I'm trying to make is this - The influx of Foreign players have improved the English Game. The skill of the current English team and fringe players is much higher than it's ever been. The reason for The England team failing at International level is not due to a lack of Skillful players.
The problem lies with the management. The FA should look at getting the Most promising Young English managers International Exposure.
Look at Rafa Benitez. He started his career as an assistant manager at Real Madrid. His first attempts at senior management away from the Real Madrid fold were less than successful. Ben
Howard_lfc
28-07-06, 12:16 PM
[QUOTE=SouthAfricaRed]But who decides which players are good enough. The Gonzalez debacle would make me think twice before introducing more Red Tape.
I dont understand why you are saying that average foreign players are restricting oppertunities for English players. Surely if the English players were good enough, they would be signed instead of the average Foreign players? If they arent good enough to displace these average players, then surely they wont be good enough for the National team anyway.
The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.
The point I'm trying to make is this - The influx of Foreign players have improved the English Game. The skill of the current English team and fringe players is much higher than it's ever been. The reason for The England team failing at International level is not due to a lack of Skillful players.
The problem lies with the management. The FA should look at getting the Most promising Young English managers International Exposure.
Look at Rafa Benitez. He started his career as an assistant manager at Real Madrid. His first attempts at senior management away from the Real Madrid fold were less than successful. Ben
The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.
I'm not sure that English players in general are over priced - look at the bargains Spurs have picked up. There is always however an issue of selling players to rivals (the prices in Spain and Italy for players are often inflated on domestic transfers every bit as much as they are here).
I agree though that by increasing the importance of English/young players they will only become more expensive. I think we would all agree that players develop best in good teams with good coaches.
I think that English managers are gradually getting better. I would cite Boothroyd and Alladcyce as managers who have looked around at different countries cultures and training techniques in different sports to help them. I think increasingly the introduction of foreign managers has exposed English coaches and players to new techniques. I don't think it is necissary for managers to have worked abroad as long as they are willing to constantly look at what other setups are doing and trying to improve their coaching. We are gradually moving away from the old cliches of English teams and the mix of managers we have seems to be benefiting the players in the PL, hopefully soon an english0 manager or coach will step up to the ranks of the really top managers.
Interesting thread
A slightly different point of view
You are discussing the number of young British/English players able to play in the Prem, and the fact that their chances are limited by the number of ( mediocre?) foreigners
Maybe if young British/English players were to broaden their horizons a bit, learn foreign languages and try their luck abroad they could develop more as players and then represent thier country. Very few British players have gone abroad , and some of those that have did not adjust easily to the different culture etc ( it was like living in a different country, Rushie )
Many Italians stay in Italy because there is a (true? ) perception that to play abroad means that you have less chance of being selected for the National team, but players from most other European countries readily move from their homeland to further their careers.
We pick up young players such as Godwin, Roque , FSP , ALT, Idrajaz(sp?) and others from different countries, Wenger and other managers do the same, but do any coaches form abroad think about checking out British acadamies for possible future stars?? No they don't, because the Briitsh footballer is in some respects insular.The same goes for managers, loads of good foreign managers/coaches travel Europe for work, but few British managers try other countries, Toshack, Souness, Hodgeson are exceptions
I understand Howards original point and to some extent agree with it but I think that a lot of the problem lies within the British mentality, it is self limiting.If you only look at playing in one league and not 10 then obviously you limit your possibilities.
Errr maybe anyway
I think the fact is that all of the big european leagues from some extent suffer from the fact that players stay in their home countries. Relatively few Spanish, Italian or English play in leagues other than their own because it is easier to stay in your home country and there is no enormous incentive to move abroad as these leagues all pay very good wages and probably offer the best chance of getting into your national side (look how McManaman's England career went downhill despite his success at Real Madrid).
I agree with your points about general insularity of the british mind set but I think there are two other factors you have neglected. Firstly until recently british youth players were so far behind continental players technically the reason for noone coming looking for them was that they were not good enough. Secondly we can offer professional contracts at a younger age than most European countries meaning that it is far easier for us to nab young talent off other countries than it is for them to do it to us.
dww , I didn't realise that we could offer contracts earlier than other leagues, thanks for the info.
I think there are more Spanish players abroad than English/British ( I haven't actually checked this though)
Italians I agree about, and mentioned , although I think if someone could be bothered to go over the last 50 years and check all the Italian players who played abroad it would be more than Brits (but it would be a tedious process):)
I would guess you would be right but some really random Brits (Robert Ullathorne, Vinny Samways) have gone abroad it's just easy to forget. There was also a young striker from Middlesborough who went to Juve, but was farmed out to a feeder team and I can't remember his name.
True it is not only big name players, but I have a terrible memory
Red_Polo
30-07-06, 12:06 PM
Listen RP - Let me put this very simply : IMO there are too many foreign players in our league. Some of them are top drawer and are more than welcome; but there are loads of them throughout the league who I believe are no better than what we already have and are stifling the growth of our home grown players. THAT is my opinion ok. If you don't like it then tough - coz I'm certainly not going to change it. :grr:
My perspective is purely a footballing one - although you seem to think otherwise as this is the second time you've mentioned 'foreigners taking british jobs'. If you wish to discuss non-footballing issues regarding nationalities and borders mate then you've come to the wrong bloke because I have absolutely no interest in discussing topics such as these with you or anybody else.
I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. Now if you will excuse me...........
H
You are extremely naive not to see the link with nationalism if you're talking about 'too many foreigners' and 'our country'. Can you not see that the two situations are completely analagous?
-Too many foreigners over here taking British jobs
-Too many foreign players over here stifling British players development
Little or no difference, you've just confined it to football. There is no good reason you can give me as to why a foreign player should be discriminated against in favour of a British one. The reasoning behind this argument can only boil down to nationalism.
Howard_lfc
30-07-06, 12:12 PM
dww , I didn't realise that we could offer contracts earlier than other leagues, thanks for the info.
process):)
I think there is a difference of when you can offer contracts to youngsters: barca got around this rule somewhat when they brough Messi over from Argentina on a 'training/youth' contract or something; then after a while got him to sign a professional contract.
I think that's right anyway - but I'm not 100% on the details.
H
There are obvious links between the position on foreign footballers and jobs in general but I think the link is more nuanced than you suggest. The main reason for this is:
Representative football: A large part of football both at the lowest youth level and the highest international level is about teams which represent an area. It is part of football culture and while at a certain level is nationalist I don't see the problem in wanting to have as good a team to support at national level as possible. The fact is at this level the limit on recruitment is defined by a players nationality and if you support England, it is natural for you to desire that the pool of players to pick from is as big and as good quality as possible.
I disagree with Howard_lfc about the idea of limits on foreign (see much of the rest of this thread) but I think it is slightly unfair to not accept that a delineation can be drawn in this case between the area of football and the rest of society.
Red_Polo
30-07-06, 12:18 PM
I dont understand why you are saying that average foreign players are restricting oppertunities for English players. Surely if the English players were good enough, they would be signed instead of the average Foreign players?
...is exactly the point. Players are signed on merit rather than place of birth and that's the way it should be. The only major thing that currently skews that is the economics, but limiting foreign players would make that even worse as you pointed out.
Red_Polo
30-07-06, 12:26 PM
There are obvious links between the position on foreign footballers and jobs in general but I think the link is more nuanced than you suggest. The main reason for this is:
Representative football: A large part of football both at the lowest youth level and the highest international level is about teams which represent an area. It is part of football culture and while at a certain level is nationalist I don't see the problem in wanting to have as good a team to support at national level as possible. The fact is at this level the limit on recruitment is defined by a players nationality and if you support England, it is natural for you to desire that the pool of players to pick from is as big and as good quality as possible.
I disagree with Howard_lfc about the idea of limits on foreign (see much of the rest of this thread) but I think it is slightly unfair to not accept that a delineation can be drawn in this case between the area of football and the rest of society.
I totally agree that there are identity issues in football that there aren't in most other jobs. However as I pointed out, we are Liverpool not England, so any identity issue should revolve around whether there are enough scousers coming through, whether the players we have do things the Liverpool way, and not whether we have 'too many foreigners'. So I don't see how nationalism need infest our thought, particularly since our identity is so apart from English nationalism.
To be honest I pretty much totally agree with you.
However the issue remains a pertinant one for the FA as it is their job to look after the England team and make sure it is as good as it can be. As supporters of LFC there is absolutely no reason to want a limit on foreigners but some people (and in the population at large many people) will support England more than club teams. For them the only factor at play is how good is the England team.
I think that the standard of English players has risen due to the competition from foreign players. I would say that homegrown players in terms of local youth bought through by a club is probably the cheapest form of player for a team and I firmly believe that this counter acts the additional cost of buying english players once they have developed. So in my opinion if they were good enough more english players would play and the fact that there are average foreigners in the league is a result of a combination of their different footballing culture not suiting our style of play and the fact that for years english players have in general been worse than average foreign players.
Howard_lfc
30-07-06, 04:50 PM
To be honest I pretty much totally agree with you.
So in my opinion if they were good enough more english players would play and the fact that there are average foreigners in the league is a result of a combination of their different footballing culture not suiting our style of play and the fact that for years english players have in general been worse than average foreign players..
The reason there are so many foreigners is that the managers over here would rather spend a few bob on some foreign player than stick his neck on the block and attempt to nurture and develop a young british player so that he becomes a regular first XI player. It's the quick fix solution brought on by the pressure of the modern game and the fact that the game is now a results business. Add this quick fix - to the over-priced british players and THAT is why we have so many 'non-british' players. Also - the fact we have so many foreign coaches now - who know the european scene so well - simply has to be a factor; Rafa being a case in point.
On friday I asked 3 blokes in work one question: Are there too many foreigners in the premiership? Withoiut hesitation - each of them said yes almost straight away. So there you have it. Proof if it was ever needed!! :D
H
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