Is it time to limit foreigners in the Prem?

[dww]

The 4 you mentioned are quality players mate and i have no problem with them whatsoever. My problem is with the kind of players I mentioned in my post who take up places in the team when we should be encouraging our own players to make the grade.

As for the overall picture: England has a good crop of players right now - but looking further ahead I can foresee problems with a lack of talent available. Something must be done to get the balance right and I believe that in the next few years you will see this happen. I believe it already happens in Scotland whereby each time must name x amount of scottish players in their match day squad. The premier league will follow suit - just you wait and see.

I think your view is very simplistic. It clearly benefits no one to import crap foreigners, but managers are not trying to do so. The problem in recent years has been the weakness of the reserve and youth setups in England meaning that performance at that standard has come to be regarded as meaningless. It has also hampered the development of players in that level of football. As a consequence teams have started to prefer the odds of bringing in players from abroad who have first team experience.

I also think that your argument is a bit out of date to be honest. Most of the teams challenging for Europe are keen to blood young players and can't afford to scout abroad at that level. Last season I would hazard a guess that more young british players got a chance than for a long time. As coaching and general standards at youth level improve so do the chances of players getting into the first team.

Further to this I believe that the Scottish system like the Frenc system is not based on nationality (for legal reasons) but limiting the number of senior (over 23 I think) professionals in the playing staff and match day squads of each team. I think there are good arguments for doing this in terms of competition and it may even help develop youth. However teams would still bring in the young players from abroad to fill these youth spots so I don't think that it would necissarily do what you want it to.

[Howard_lfc]

I think your view is very simplistic. It clearly benefits no one to import crap foreigners, but managers are not trying to do so. The problem in recent years has been the weakness of the reserve and youth setups in England meaning that performance at that standard has come to be regarded as meaningless. It has also hampered the development of players in that level of football. As a consequence teams have started to prefer the odds of bringing in players from abroad who have first team experience.

I also think that your argument is a bit out of date to be honest. Most of the teams challenging for Europe are keen to blood young players and can't afford to scout abroad at that level. Last season I would hazard a guess that more young british players got a chance than for a long time. As coaching and general standards at youth level improve so do the chances of players getting into the first team.

Further to this I believe that the Scottish system like the Frenc system is not based on nationality (for legal reasons) but limiting the number of senior (over 23 I think) professionals in the playing staff and match day squads of each team. I think there are good arguments for doing this in terms of competition and it may even help develop youth. However teams would still bring in the young players from abroad to fill these youth spots so I don't think that it would necissarily do what you want it to.

Just because it's not a convoluted arguement doesn't mean it isn't correct.

Take a look around the teams in the prem and then tell me that there aren't too many foreigners. IMO we need to do something about it whereas you obviously think the numbers are fine. I have no problem with quality - it's the quantity I'm concerned about.

I think you're right with the scottish thing - it is to do with age (23).

[dww]

I'm not saying that it's simplicity is your arguments flaw. Simply that I don't believe that the situation is as simple as your argument suggests. Taking the starting point that it is in the interests of the English game to develop players of a high quality to play in the England team (I think it could be argued that it is an entertainment product which should be viewed in terms of how much enjoyment it provides - no one gets upset that there are so many Americans in the movies for example).

I know there are a lot of foreign players in the league but I thik that this is a result of a number of years when coaching in this country fell below that in Europe. This has led to an influx of players as we have the money to pay them. However I genuinely think that the last few years have seen the turning of the tide as the rate of English players coming into PL sides has increased due to the improvements made in coaching.

In the last few years the England side has not seen a lack of talent because every player who was English and played in the PL was of a very high standard and had to play against players of a very good standard. This meant that even if the numbers were low the cream rose to the top more obviously and was improved when it got there. Contrast this to the period when Carlton Palmer and Geoff Thomas seemed like valid England internationals.

I think that a limit on foreign players would simply mean the playing of less talented English players for the sake of it. Reducing the quality of the league. This may be necissary in leagues where top coaching cannot be bought in but in the PL we can afford and have gone out to bring in the best available coaches and as a result the balance of home grown players is improving. Every club is a business and youth players are cheaper than players bought in and in many cases will sell more shirts than a foreign player of comparable quality.

[Bob]

isn't fifa trying to do that, isn't there a rule from fifa comming that states that you need to have x many players in you starting team that are home grown,

Only skimmed this thread...

I'm sure there's plenty of xenophobia etc. etc. But at least someone has the sense to post something knowledgeable in a short, sweet sentence.

This is the link. Arsenal - big surprise there will be looking to challenge, as would D. Murray (if they bloody qualified that is!).

Uefa sets foreign player limits

I like this rule and while it wont come into effect in the EPL the big boys will be forced to adhere without damaging Bolton T/fer strategy!

[dww]

The thing is the actual regulations make no mention of nationality. there are two classes of "homegrown" player mentioned:

1/ players who were trained in the home association of the club for 2 years between the ages of 17 and 21

2/ players trained in the club for two years in the same age range.

The limit will rise eventually to 8 category 1 players of which four must be category 2.

Thus no limit on foreign players. For example I believe Toure, Senderos, and Clechy all qualify for Arsenal.

Despite being against the limit I think the thread has generally steered clear of the xenophobia usually associated with this topic.

[Howard_lfc]

The thing is the actual regulations make no mention of nationality. there are two classes of "homegrown" player mentioned:

1/ players who were trained in the home association of the club for 2 years between the ages of 17 and 21

2/ players trained in the club for two years in the same age range.

The limit will rise eventually to 8 category 1 players of which four must be category 2.

Thus no limit on foreign players. For example I believe Toure, Senderos, and Clechy all qualify for Arsenal.

Despite being against the limit I think the thread has generally steered clear of the xenophobia usually associated with this topic.

The rules you mention are exactly the ones I referred to at the top of the thread - associated with Arsenal.

Hey dww - great posts by the way. However!!! Just because your points are valid and well articulated - it doesn't mean that I agree with them.

[dww]

[Red_Polo]

Take a look around the teams in the prem and then tell me that there aren't too many foreigners.

What exactly is 'too many foreigners' supposed to mean? What's too many, and why is any number too many? You say you aren't evoking the old idea of foreigners taking British jobs, but you are because you're saying there are too many foreigners over here playing top flight football when it should be British folk.

I think the fact is you are looking at this from a highly nationalistic perspective, you keep talking about the good of the game in 'this country' etc. We're Liverpool, we aren't a national team, it's not up to us to do anything whatsoever for the good of the game in this country particularly. Any moral responsibility we have lies with the good of the game throughout the world. In fact any moral responsibility anyone has should be to the whole world, not limited by national borders. So why limit foreign players? What exactly is unfair about it? Why shouldn't foreign players have the same chances as British ones?

[Howard_lfc]

What exactly is 'too many foreigners' supposed to mean? What's too many, and why is any number too many? You say you aren't evoking the old idea of foreigners taking British jobs, but you are because you're saying there are too many foreigners over here playing top flight football when it should be British folk.

I think the fact is you are looking at this from a highly nationalistic perspective, you keep talking about the good of the game in 'this country' etc. We're Liverpool, we aren't a national team, it's not up to us to do anything whatsoever for the good of the game in this country particularly. Any moral responsibility we have lies with the good of the game throughout the world. In fact any moral responsibility anyone has should be to the whole world, not limited by national borders. So why limit foreign players? What exactly is unfair about it? Why shouldn't foreign players have the same chances as British ones?

Listen RP - Let me put this very simply : IMO there are too many foreign players in our league. Some of them are top drawer and are more than welcome; but there are loads of them throughout the league who I believe are no better than what we already have and are stifling the growth of our home grown players. THAT is my opinion ok. If you don't like it then tough - coz I'm certainly not going to change it.
My perspective is purely a footballing one - although you seem to think otherwise as this is the second time you've mentioned 'foreigners taking british jobs'. If you wish to discuss non-footballing issues regarding nationalities and borders mate then you've come to the wrong bloke because I have absolutely no interest in discussing topics such as these with you or anybody else.
I hope that is clear enough for you to understand. Now if you will excuse me...........

H

[SouthAfricaRed]

Once you start introducing Artificial constraints on the League, the Quality of the League Suffers. The EPL is one of the Best Leagues in the World, because the Best players play in it. If you start limiting the Top Players from playing in it, the quality of the League will suffer.

BTW the Performance of the English side has very little to do with the Quality of the side. There is enough Good Young English players around. They have improved their skills by playing against the Best. I think the problem is Higher up the chain. There are not enough Good English Managers Around. Do you propose a Limit on Foreign Managers too?

[Howard_lfc]

Once you start introducing Artificial constraints on the League, the Quality of the League Suffers. The EPL is one of the Best Leagues in the World, because the Best players play in it. If you start limiting the Top Players from playing in it, the quality of the League will suffer.

BTW the Performance of the English side has very little to do with the Quality of the side. There is enough Good Young English players around. They have improved their skills by playing against the Best. I think the problem is Higher up the chain. There are not enough Good English Managers Around. Do you propose a Limit on Foreign Managers too?

Read what I said SAR. I said I have no problem with the top foreign players coming over here to play. My point is that there are too many average foreigners restricting opportunities for our own players.
I do wish people would stop trying to put words into my mouth - I really do
The foreign managers is another debate totally - and one which I haven't really thought about yet; but on the face of it - there weren't too many decent english managers to consider when SGE decided to jack it in were there? Draw your own conclusions.....

H

[SouthAfricaRed]

Read what I said SAR. I said I have no problem with the top foreign players coming over here to play. My point is that there are too many average foreigners restricting opportunities for our own players.
I do wish people would stop trying to put words into my mouth - I really do
The foreign managers is another debate totally - and one which I haven't really thought about yet; but on the face of it - there weren't too many decent english managers to consider when SGE decided to jack it in were there? Draw your own conclusions.....

H

But who decides which players are good enough. The Gonzalez debacle would make me think twice before introducing more Red Tape.

I dont understand why you are saying that average foreign players are restricting oppertunities for English players. Surely if the English players were good enough, they would be signed instead of the average Foreign players? If they arent good enough to displace these average players, then surely they wont be good enough for the National team anyway.

The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.

The point I'm trying to make is this - The influx of Foreign players have improved the English Game. The skill of the current English team and fringe players is much higher than it's ever been. The reason for The England team failing at International level is not due to a lack of Skillful players.

The problem lies with the management. The FA should look at getting the Most promising Young English managers International Exposure.

Look at Rafa Benitez. He started his career as an assistant manager at Real Madrid. His first attempts at senior management away from the Real Madrid fold were less than successful. Ben

[Howard_lfc]

[QUOTE=SouthAfricaRed]But who decides which players are good enough. The Gonzalez debacle would make me think twice before introducing more Red Tape.

I dont understand why you are saying that average foreign players are restricting oppertunities for English players. Surely if the English players were good enough, they would be signed instead of the average Foreign players? If they arent good enough to displace these average players, then surely they wont be good enough for the National team anyway.

The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.

The point I'm trying to make is this - The influx of Foreign players have improved the English Game. The skill of the current English team and fringe players is much higher than it's ever been. The reason for The England team failing at International level is not due to a lack of Skillful players.

The problem lies with the management. The FA should look at getting the Most promising Young English managers International Exposure.

Look at Rafa Benitez. He started his career as an assistant manager at Real Madrid. His first attempts at senior management away from the Real Madrid fold were less than successful. Ben

[dww]

The biggest stumbling block I see is the Price of English players. It's artificially high. Ex Carrick 17 million vs Alonso 10.5 million. Why is this? By preventing a free flow of Foreign players and Increasing the Importance of English players, you will widen this price Gap.

I'm not sure that English players in general are over priced - look at the bargains Spurs have picked up. There is always however an issue of selling players to rivals (the prices in Spain and Italy for players are often inflated on domestic transfers every bit as much as they are here).

I agree though that by increasing the importance of English/young players they will only become more expensive. I think we would all agree that players develop best in good teams with good coaches.

I think that English managers are gradually getting better. I would cite Boothroyd and Alladcyce as managers who have looked around at different countries cultures and training techniques in different sports to help them. I think increasingly the introduction of foreign managers has exposed English coaches and players to new techniques. I don't think it is necissary for managers to have worked abroad as long as they are willing to constantly look at what other setups are doing and trying to improve their coaching. We are gradually moving away from the old cliches of English teams and the mix of managers we have seems to be benefiting the players in the PL, hopefully soon an english0 manager or coach will step up to the ranks of the really top managers.

[WILF]

Interesting thread

A slightly different point of view

You are discussing the number of young British/English players able to play in the Prem, and the fact that their chances are limited by the number of ( mediocre?) foreigners

Maybe if young British/English players were to broaden their horizons a bit, learn foreign languages and try their luck abroad they could develop more as players and then represent thier country. Very few British players have gone abroad , and some of those that have did not adjust easily to the different culture etc ( it was like living in a different country, Rushie )

Many Italians stay in Italy because there is a (true? ) perception that to play abroad means that you have less chance of being selected for the National team, but players from most other European countries readily move from their homeland to further their careers.

We pick up young players such as Godwin, Roque , FSP , ALT, Idrajaz(sp?) and others from different countries, Wenger and other managers do the same, but do any coaches form abroad think about checking out British acadamies for possible future stars?? No they don't, because the Briitsh footballer is in some respects insular.The same goes for managers, loads of good foreign managers/coaches travel Europe for work, but few British managers try other countries, Toshack, Souness, Hodgeson are exceptions

I understand Howards original point and to some extent agree with it but I think that a lot of the problem lies within the British mentality, it is self limiting.If you only look at playing in one league and not 10 then obviously you limit your possibilities.

Errr maybe anyway